Hi - as some of you may remember I have a Welsh Springer pup - now 7 months old. (Thanks to all who posted advice on previous problems btw... she is coming on albeit slowly and we have finally found a one-to-one trainer nearby.) For some time she has been allowed off the lead in safe fields including playing with other dogs and her recall has always been excellent - even away from other dogs and some sheep who surprised us by straying into our usual field (luckily we have been working on sheep and how 'boring' they are!). But shock! horror! in the past week she has discovered the joy of chasing birds and roaming a bit further away from me than she used to (always was one for 'checking in' continually before) and is at these times (three times in all) deaf to recall until she emerges, exhausted and grinning, from the chase. Obviously flushing birds is what she was bred to do and I feel stupid not to have considered this in advance. What is the best way to bring some control into the situation as I am worried about this 'deafness' and its possible consequences (running into danger/getting lost/ pursuing birds in amongst sheep etc.) I will be asking my trainer about this but want to know what Champdogs folk would do. I have been told that Welshies are notorious for this 'deafness' so should not have been too surprised I suppose!

One of the biggest problems working Spaniel people have is preventing their dogs getting into the habit of "Free Hunting". If you think about it, a dog pulling ahead of the gun is no good at all. Any bird flushed out of range is wasted!

In the same way, any dog, working or pet, who gets into the habit of free hunting (Hunting on its own initiative rather than under the control of it's handler) is going to be very hard work.

I'm not a Spaniel man so there are others on here better placed to reply but the first requirement is to only allow "really free" running where there is no risks of her getting up to mischief. Even then, the running should be under your control although the range can be greater than at less favourable times. At times when you are in a position where she might find something then you need her to keep quite close. Whether this is achieved by voice of by having her on a 15 to 20 foot check cord and insisting that she hunts within that area

It's only really about teaching the behaviour you want and preventing the behaviour you don't want. You maybe don't want to work your dog but that does not stop the dog from wanting to work because that's what gives them pleasure and working with a dog is so much easier than working against the dog!

Regards, John

Thankyou, John. I suspected I would probably have to be very careful where I let her off the lead from now on while I attempt to sort this out. I think it will probably only be truly 'safe' when she is playing with her pals, who will keep her attention away from any birds - then back on the lead again afterwards, for now.
I had read about the use of long lines and can see that this would allow her to hunt about within an area but how does one prevent the line snagging on bushes and undergrowth? I hadn't intended to work my dog but if she has a really strong tendency towards finding birds I agree it would be better to channel it rather than fight it, as you say... but I have very little knowledge about working gundog training... although I know the Welsh Springer Club hold training sessions down south. Maybe I should see if they have any contacts round here.
Cheers.

Spaniels love to hunt! Whether its birds for the gun or tennis balls for fun is all the same to them! It's the channelling of the enthusiasm  sum that counts.

<<I had read about the use of long lines and can see that this would allow her to hunt about within an area but how does one prevent the line snagging on bushes and undergrowth?>>

Depends on the type of cover. Long grass with sparse shrubby growth is easy for a start. Heavy Blackthorn is almost impossible!! Pick your ground whilst you learn to control the check cord and you will be surprised how much easier it gets.

Go along to a Spaniel Test in the summer and see the dogs working with dummies and I bet you get taken by it. ;)

Regards, John

Thanks again, John! Feel a bit daft in retrospect... of course it would be easier to pick an area of ground without bushes etc. when using the check cord... don't know why I thought I had to dive in amongst the trees and gorse bushes!
I have one more question, which I have been wondering about: what should I be directing her to do when she finds a bird while on the check cord?
It would be good to see a Spaniel Test too - although my girl would probably disgrace herself if let near a dummy as she likes nothing better than a good game of tug - eek!

The different disciplines have differing requirements. Pointers and setters for example are run as a brace. On finding a bird the dog finding it goes on point and the other backs up the point. The bird is flushed by the handler ready for the waiting guns. (In pointer tests the birds are not shot because after pointing they are finished) The reason for this is that the dogs range out over the moors so could easily be too far from the guns. HPR's on the other hand are worked singly and also have to retrieve the bird. A Spaniel is traditionally the rough shooting dog and would be out with its owner, possibly accompanied by a friend. Its job is to find game whilst still in range of the guns. On flushing game for its own safety, it should drop into the sit. Imagine if it flushed a rabbit and the gun, concentrating on sighting the rabbit did no notice that the dog was chasing it! After the bird or whatever is shot the spaniel should retrieve it to hand.

Seeing a good dog working is a joy to see. Keep an eye open during the summer for a local Game Fair. There are always gundog competitions there involving all types.

Regards, John

Ah, it's all starting to become clear... so really I should ask my pup to sit when she flushes a bird - but then if it was a real 'shoot' she would get to retrieve the fallen bird afterwards. This is going to be tricky! Think I'm just going to have to take things very slowly - but it will be a lot better than having a dog that disappears worryingly for hours on end...
And I will look out for a Game Fair - very rural area we live in so there should be plenty...
Thanks ever so much for all this information, John. The more I find out about gundog training the more amazing it seems - and the more my own dog's behavioural quirks make sense ( and I did research for a year before getting my dog - but still feel I know very little!)

Really, in gundog work all we are doing is using what the dog wants to do anyway and channelling it in the direction we want. Its really all about working with the dog rather than fighting against it. If you try to get your dog to do something it finds fun then it's going to want to do it!

Best wishes, John

Getting a pet spaniel really steady to birds, rabbits and hares is a real challenge for the following reasons :

Most pet owners understandably want to allow their dog much more freedom and distance than a working spaniel would be allowed to range. My young english springer who is intended for field trialling, NEVER gets to go more than about twenty yards from me other than for a retrieve. Other than early lead walking experience I have never taken her for a 'walk', instead I get her to suitable ground and train her. This involves controlled hunting & retrieving which would give her 2 hours worth of 'pet type' exercise in about twenty minutes!  Allowing her greater range would make it extremely difficult to enforce any steadiness on contact with game.

To enforce steadiness you need to train an instant sit (or at least stop). For gundog purposes this would usually involves whistle training. Gundog training classes will assist with this & so would a good gundog training manual. Given the high level of chase drive, positive only methods are unlikely to be completely succesful, and most spaniels will need the occasional 'square up' for not stopping!

To achieve steadiness, you really need access to some game that you can rely on to be at the right place at the right time so that you can be ready to stop the dog from chasing. If you're not ready you have a hell of a job preventing a chase! You therefore need eyes in the back of your head to ensure that your dog doesnt get rewarded by getting a chase whilst out on a walk. Most spaniel trainers will have access to a rabbit pen where steadiness can be trained in a controlled environment.

From the little I know about welsh springers, I understand that they can be quite tough & willfull, so this training could require significant perserverence. Some smarter dogs do catch on to the fact that they cant catch a bird once it takes off, and eventually work out that its not worth chasing them too far!

Best of luck!

What Havoc is saying is true, but don't think that it is necessarily over restrictive. Think about it this way. A spaniel loves to hunt. It's pleasure is in ferreting about in the undergrowth following scents. All we are doing is saying, "Have a look in here, not right over there!" What we want is a dog working close. And ideally, if we can prove to the dog that by working where we suggest, that she finds something interesting, then we are proving to the dog that by listening to us she will achieve her goal! Simple really! It's the basis of all training whether working, pet or whatever!

Regards, John

Hi Havoc and John
Thanks for responding. I would be very happy for my dog to stick quite close to me as we live in the middle of fells which go on for miles and are full of sheep, rabbits, birds and other wildlife... It wouldn't be restrictive - she could find plenty to interest her within a small area I'm sure... I just have to persuade her of that, is that right? I have started to teach her to sit to the whistle - just happened to meet a man who trains working cockers the day after my original post and he suggested that too. I have also taken on board John's advice about keeping her out of mischief for now and have bought a line to attach to her collar.
As you say, it is difficult to predict when animals and birds will appear - although I am learning which hedgerows are usually full of birds... We were doing well with sheep until the crows decided to sit amongst them - grrr...
On the subject of training manuals, can you recommend a good one for spaniels? You are right by the way that Welsh Springers are tough and wilful - but they are also sensitive and full of the joy of living - it's a tricky combination!
Thanks again...

Two possibilities, both are general gundog training books but both are very good.

"Gundog Training" by Keith Erlandson and "Gundogs, Their learning chain" by Joe Irving

You know to be very careful around livestock. My dogs are around Sheep and Cattle all the time and the three farms on the shoot know them, but if I'm on strange ground that farmer wont know that and is entitled to be concerned. I'm particularly careful around livestock when the older ones have gone to market and the new stock is in the fields. My dogs might know livestock but the new livestock does not know my dogs and cattle particularly can turn nasty!

Regards, John
 

Thankyou, John!
Point taken about the livestock - I should have explained perhaps that she has so far never been off the lead around livestock apart from the one occasion in my original post when some sheep 'caught us out' by straying into our usually safe field. What she is not managing so well at the moment (but was managing before) is that she is looking intently towards the sheep when on the lead - but I think that is because there are crows sitting amongst the flock... (I hope so anyway as previously she was at the point where I had managed to encourage her away from even looking at the sheep, mainly by walking past tough Rough Fell types on the lead - they are big, scary animals with zombie eyes and the loudest deepest voices ever! I'm quite scared of them myself!). The farmers around here do tolerate dogs on the hill without leads but they have to be under control, which rules us out for the forseeable future - and of course, as you say, the livestock themselves could be totally unpredictable anyway. And I hadn't even begun to think of walks further away from home where we don't know the farms... argh! I'm beginning to think it would be easier to move to the city!
Cheers once again...

The Fells are beautiful and I know where I would rather live, and it would not be the city! :) So saying, they do bring their own problems with them. For training the ideal is predictability. You know exactly what you are going to find around the corner. I have a park with public access within a mile of here. There are possible a hundred dogs a day walking there but there are also cattle grazing. The cattle see so many dogs that they are literally impervious to them. It is one of my regular training grounds for a puppy. At an early stage they are doing heelwork off lead between the cattle. A friend has a small paddock where she keeps half a dozen sheep. Training ground number two! A local gymkhana is also taken in as part of socialising.

So I have a bomb proof dog? I happily went to Anna's first working test satisfied I had covered all bases and what did I find? GEESE! Arr well, the best laid plans and all that. But as I always say, everything is a training oppertunity.

Regards, John

Another good book is 'Working Springers & Cockers' by Mike Smith. This book has four chapters on getting a spaniel to stop when it should! (on command, to the thrown dummy, to gunfire and to game)

Just a thought. A good way of building steadiness is with retrieving practise. When you can get a dog really steady to a thrown dummy, you will be well on the way to having the required level of training to begin steadiness to game. Until you can reliably stop a dog from chasing a retrieve until commanded, you'll have no chance with game. Its no problem to carry a ball or training dummy on a walk and teach the dog to react to the thrown article by stopping immediately. All of the recommended books would cover this training.

- John - Geese! Oh no! We are 'fortunate' in having a field of geese near here... I think they are probably scarier than the sheep.
- Havoc - FOUR chapters on stopping!! That does seem thorough - but reassuring for a beginner like me. The retrieving practice sounds a good idea too.
Thankyou! :)

But it was great practise for when she was invited by a friend (who occasionally posts on here) to pick up some Duck and Geese a few months later! ;)

Regards, John