Hello
a few weeks ago I put a post on this website asking for some advice on breeding a westie! At NO POINT did I say I was gonna run out the door the next day and stud my dog (anyway he is only 1and 3mths). The replies I got back were nasty/condesending and basically saying I was a bad person because I was gonna breed a "bad" example of the breed! My dog is a perfect westie thankyou very much!!
I had done abit of research myself, but thought that it would be much better to ask advice off people who would of done this before, except I got critised for what I asked!!
I thought this website was supposed to help people and give them advice, not preach to them postperson that they are doing it wrong or that they havent done their research before hand!
I doubt very much in future that I would come back to use this website again as I feel that you all judge people, just because you may have won awards/gone to crufts etc, all I can say is YOU DONT WANT A DOG YOU WANT A TROPHY/ROSETTE. I love my westie dearly and wouldnt change him for the world, and would NO WAY put him in a breeding situation that may cause him problems.
Just to say to all the people who replied to my previous post thanks for nothing as you have put me off asking this website for anything in the future, and to those few who stuck up for me, thankyou!
laura, si and jackjack

Laura if you love you dog very much you would understand how sad it is that so many of his breed are exploited, bred from sick and unsound parents condemning them to poor health and their owners to a lot of heart ache.  No-one can know what any posters expereince is, but when asked about breeding they need to point out all the responsibilities to the breed the dogs themselves and their owners.  Sadly there are huge numbers of very poor specimins of the breed bred whose breedrs take no responsibility at all for them once they are sold,a dn the breeds rescues and general rescues are full of them, and the veterinary proffession make a very good living from treating their health and temperament problems.

The only way people won't be adding to these sad statistics is if everything is pointed out to them, no matter how unpalatable.  It is a fact that very few dogs are 'Breeding Quality' maybe one or two per very well bred litter,a nd noen from the poorly bred opnes :D 

Don't take things personally.  the posts on this board are read by lots of people seeking information as they come up on search engines, so even if you knew some of thr things mentioned the information will help others who don't.

Stay around you may find it isn't so bad here after a while, but we are all very passionate about protecting our breeds and dogs in general.

"Fit of Pique"??

i wasnt even involved, but this happened a few WEEKS ago,
and NOW you are complaining?????
if Champdogs and its contributors are as unimportant and rubbish as you say,
why have you been brooding about them for so long?
and if champdogs is as irrelevant as you say, why have you come back and posted on it?
sounds a bit nonsensical to me

clutha

CLUTHA
I DID NOT SAY THE CONTRIBUTORS WERE RUBBISH!!
SOME OF THEM ARE HELPFULL, SEE MY POST BELOW!!

My dog is a perfect westie thankyou very much!!

That has endorsed everything that was said Jackjack!  You were given excellent help and advice and have obviously chosen not to listen, so there's no point in asking really, is there?  Your perogative of course.  But I'm glad that you love your dog.

Are you sure this isn't a case of shooting the messenger because you don't like the message?

If your dog is perfect, then he's the only dog who is. Perhaps you should have him cloned rather than breeding from him ;)  Seriously though, if you only posted your questions expecting to get the answers you wanted to hear, then you came to the wrong place...most people on here give HONEST opinions and advice, like it or not.

i didnt say that i didnt appreciate advice, but the way in which people repond to you is like their treating people who ask simple questions just to double check things as if we are dumb!
my dog is pefect to me, is what i meant, people take things literally on here and that what is annoying!i wouldnt clone any animal, and the reason i have posted this even tho the original post was a few weeks ago is because we have been away!!!
Fair enough i know there are poor examples of every breed of dog and that is why we came on here trying to find out facts/information, not to have the riot act gave to us as soon as we posted!!!! which is what seems everybody does on here. no ffence to people who do genuinley give help, but people who seem to "tell you off" like your parents are not at all helpful!!!

Sometimes replies are not as diplomatic as they could be, but nobody means you any harm.  All our dogs are 'perfect' to us as owners but that doesn't mean that they will be perfect to use for breeding.  Try not to take the advice so personally and I am sure you will gain a lot of good help and advice from very experienced people who post here.

"CLUTHA
I DID NOT SAY THE CONTRIBUTORS WERE RUBBISH!!
SOME OF THEM ARE HELPFULL, SEE MY POST BELOW!! "

rubbish as in your general expressed attitude to Champdogs and its posters - wasnt quoting you as using the word in particular.
you havent got a post below, but my referance was your expression in your post above.
although this is irrelevant, as it isnt the questions/points i was quizzing you on.

ears ringing...........clutha

clutha
see 3posts below your first one, i think there is a post from myself???
or are my eyes decieving me??? :-|

Laura it is very difficult to get all the nuances in just a brief post, and things can be misunderstood very easily. :D  If the posts seem preaching then it is because the subject matter is VERY SERIOUS these are dogs and peoples lives that we are responsible for when breeding.

Anyway basically good breeders will look for the best stud dogs to mate ther bitches too.  The only way they have of knowing which are the good dogs is to see them and their offspring at shows (or with breeds that work in the working arena). 

I showed a dog I bred for my freind to his second CC on Thursday.  This means he is certainly a good dog and at least two judges have considered him worthy of the title Champion.  He is fit and healthy has passed his health tests, but no-one has ever asked to use him at stud.  I did try to use him myself, but sadly my girl gave him the runaround and all we got was an upset dog.  Took ages for his owner to get his mind back in gear.  Much as I would like to try to use him again I don't wish to spoil her enjoyment of him as a Companion, especialy as she now also has his nephew.  A lot of people with really nice males won't even let them be used at stud because of the changes it can cause to their attitude to life and especialynin small breeds like yours the break down in house cleanliness. :D

The trouble with the Internet is that all any of us have to go on is what is written - which is why it's so very important that we all only put exactly what we mean be no misunderstandings. If we feel unclear about details we can only ask for clarification, because there's no way of knowing otherwise! We can only take things literally - it's either that or insult people by assuming they don't know what they mean.

Everyone's first priority is to the dogs and what is best for them (both as individuals and their breed as a whole).

Mine is by no means a large breed and there are dogs on 2CC's - even champions who have not been used. If the dogs faults are the same as the bitch (and they ALL have faults), or there is a better dog of the same lines, then people will not use your dog - it is as simple as that. And in a popular breed such as yours, the bitch owners can afford to be very picky.

Fillis, something that is puzzling me in what you said - why would a Champion not be suitable for breeding?  Or do you mean in one case with one particular female (in which case the Champion would be okay to use with other bitches).

Thanks

Fiona

champions can have any number of medical problems!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No, we have champions but no-one has used them at stud. Not necessarily because of medical problems, but because lines dont suit, type isnt right for certain bitches etc.

hi laura.
hopefully if some of what has said has made you really think if breeding is for you or not,then that has to be a good thing?
hopefully now you know abit more about what is invloved about breeding westies (complicated) & if you do decide to follow your dream you are "armed" with the information that you need!
weve,all had our fallings out on here....you arent alone. & really we all need to learn & start somewhere.
personally i dont breed,(because of lack of time) but would like to breed some obedience bred puppies in the future (far in the future!!!!) but even now it kinda scares me!!!!!
my friend recently had a litter of 9 puppies & he had to sit & watch them die for no reason,one by one.till he had two left that were fine & one that has problems. god if that happened to me?????
please stay on the board,you can even learn  by just reading what others are asking!!!! get involved in the "fun" topics ,

Although I have found this forum to be very informative and helpful in lots of ways, I have noticed that occasionally some of the responses are rather 'harsh' to the novice and it has made me afraid of asking questions in case I am castigated for appearing stupid.  It is a shame because lots of you out there are so knowledgable and we want to learn, but people and their questions should always be treated with due respect, I think.  Thanks though to all the helpful information I have found on this site, even if I am too scared to ask anything else!

Ask away

There is never a silly question if you dont know the answer
and if you need help just ask and stuff the nasty ones.

Never be afraid to ask, although the answers may not be what you want to hear. Typing replies into an inanimate object is not the same as speaking to someone face to face or even over the phone. ie; body language, tone of voice, the use of hands etc are all part of relating. Everyone has the "perfect" dog or bitch, how can we explain that there is no such thing. My breed is labradors (just type chocolate labradors into search) or OCD or HD and you find the topics quite heated at some points. I personally do not breed chocolates I would rather leave that to the experts (I have only had dogs for around 40 years) I have 2 perfect labs (to the untrained or novice eye), and have been asked many times for pups from Pennys litters. She has never and will never be bred from. I have a dog who has no less than 29 Ch. and Sh Ch in his 5line pedigree, he too will never go to stud. Their faults are so minor that they are un-noticable, but they are faults that MAY be reproduced and accentuated in future litters, this is not what breeding is about. We are all passionate about our breeds and have seen so many unmitigated disasters because someone wants a pup from their pet.

We also can only answer a question on how or why it was asked, if the full facts are not given (we have to assume they are) then the answers are given on the information stated. We are not infallable and we do want to help.

Please do not stop asking questions, give as much information as possible, and get to know us, we are all here to help if possible :)

Kay

the search function is quite helpful....if you feel scared!!! it will bring up all the previous posts on the subject!!!! :)
personally i think its really bad if people are scared to ask questions as asking is how we ALL learn.
& its all very well saying "well you asked,its not our fault that you dont like the advice"....but sometimes that attitude achieves absoulutly nothing & infact may cause more harm if the person just does it anyway & then has no where to turn.
instead of just giving a negative opinion,maybe give the negative but also a positive alternative solution.?????
food for thought?
also sarcastic advice many people can really do without,its fine to have a differeing opinion & even not one that a poster wants to hear,but abit of senstivity can go along way.
WE ALL love our dogs after all

Often a lot of the heat that gets posted, if you look carefully, is not directed at the original poster, rather at someone who has replied. We are all just a little bit passionate about our dogs so really, it's understandable if sometimes we fall out!

Don't forget, a stupid question is only stupid if you know the answer!

Regards, John

Hi, like CSMAD ive felt intimidated at times to ask questions too.

What I've learned though is that everyone is human and although it is a forum for sharing information and opinions and it can get personalised and heated it is also very supportive for people in need.

I've looked into past posts to get info and the people I feel are supportive (not necessarily agreeing with me tho) ive sent them a post mark and bless them so far all of them have replied and have been really helpful. Its easier too to do a long message trying to give a bigger picture too.

Everyone is passionate but different.

If in doubt have alook in the historical stuff and maybe just send a few people a post mark to build a relationship.

Thanks to all those so far who have been supportive and a bit challenging!     

Maybe he has decided to give it another go?

Would be a win for the forum as im sure you'd rather encourage people who have made the effort to ask experienced dog lovers/owners/breeders for help.

Sorry, again im not very technical but this was following on from Blondiflops post .

You have a perfect westie?  Shall watch him take BIS then at crufts...because no-one else on in the dog showing world has a perfect dog!

"Don't forget, a stupid question is only stupid if you know the answer!"

I like that saying. Do you mind if I pinch it? ;)

Not at all. ;) On Burns Night, with a wee dram in my glass to keep out the cold, everyone's welcome :)

Please dont let some obnoxious posters put you off!! Practically every person that comes on and asks about breeding cops it,so you are NOT alone ;)
Water off a ducks back and all of that ...

Everyone had to start somewhere,it's just if someone comes on and asks how do they go about breeding their pet because they are just tooo cute and they want to keep a pup,it does sound a little irresponsible and people who may own that particular breed will be over sensitive to it as it is!

Just give as good as you get and dont let people who you dont even know put you off of posting here,there are plenty of other threads you can ask questions on,Just DONT ask anything about breeding,LOL

Unfortunately you have to grow a thick skin when posting on most doggy forums as the majority of folk are very passionate about their dogs,and can come accross as harsh,insensitive and sarcastic,on the other hand there are alot of nice and helpful folk aswell.You will learn who to avoid such as the trouble makers and pot stirrers very quickly,if you ignore them long enough,eventually they will go away :p

So like i said dont let a bunch of strangers stop you from learning more about your dogs,you will be the only one who loses :(

Rose I am sure you would agree, style apart that the advice actually given regarding breeding (or not) is actually sound? 

It should only be undertaken after serious research and accepting the awesome responsibilities that come with it, and with those owning males to point out knowledgeable breeders seeking to produce the best pups they can are not going to be using unknown Pet dogs, they need to evaluate them(see them working or at shows) and preferably see what kind of offspring they have produced (ye every dog needs to be used first time, but it will usually be by the breeder or a freind thereof willing to take the chance knowing the line inside out).

Many people think their Pet dog perfect (no such breed example exxists, even though there is fairly wide margin for interpretation in most standards) but they often are being purely sentimental, and some have never even read the breed standard let alone interpreted it where flesh and blood are concerned, they will probably not have seen enough specimins of the breed to compare, know little about correct structure and movement and so on. 

Everyone has to start somewhere, but you then have to work with people who do know a lot more than you do and be guided until you reach the stage of being able to stand on your own two feet.  Good breeders have long Apprenticeships, and we never stop learning, and in turn when we have learnt we help others who wish to glean knowledge we may have.  this cannot be done in isolation, and this is what shows/working events were for, for breeders to compare their work, and it still is the prime purpose as far as serious breeders are concerned.  the fact that competition is fun, and we can enjoy showing/Working our dogs is a plus.

That is why in popular breeds especialy we see so many untypical examples of a breed.  There has already been a thread on the board about someone buying a Toy Poodle, and it is already 5 inches taller than the maximum height allowed.  Now we all know that pups will sometimes grow a bit taller or stay a bit smaller than the expected size, but here we are talking about 50% taller!!!!

When someone wants a pedigree dog they are entitled to have one that has the typical traits of the breed, be as healthy as it is humanly possible to ensure, or they may as well go to the local rescue centre and get a crossbreed in need of a home.

Well said Brainless. Lets stand up and be counted. Do we want to encourage puppy producing or do we want to support responsible breeding and attempt to deter irresponsible breeding?

My vote it to support the responsible breeder.

Is there anyone who has a problem with that?

John

Seconded, John

thirded John ;)

Ditto John and Brainless.

It is like everything in life people only want to hear what they want to hear. When they don't then they decide they don't want help from the  "obnoxious posters"  ;-)  Most people who object to rules and guidelines are those who break them !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!    Sad really.

I can't be bothered with the throwing the dummy out the pram stuff :-)) ;-)

I'm applauding Brainless!!  :)  Count me in John. :)
I'm happy to help anyone who wants to learn, but I'll do nothing to encourage irresponsible breeding!!

I always felt that this board different and tried to maintain standards in the dog world.  There are plenty of other sites for those who want to churn out puppies purely for the pet market!

Fair enough encourage responsible breeding,i hate backyard breeders as much as the next person.
I know some folk come on here and ask "how do i find a stud" or "when can i mate my bitch", questions any serious breeder should know the answers too.
But  instead of jumping down the posters throat and truly coming accross as obnoxious and pompous,cant the advice be given in a more diplomatic and nicer fashion,in the end they will do what they want to do no matter what everyone says.But i know i would be more inclined to take advice if it was presented in a helpful manner,instead of a  bitchy,holier than thou rant,which is how alot of posts come accross :(

When i see a post asking about breeding i know exactly what i'm going to read as the replies are always the same and from the same people.I would have thought that these regular posters would have figured out that their way is not working,by now

It's a damn shame that alot of newbies are too afraid to ask questions,does that not say something to any of you??
No-one likes being made a fool of and treated like a 5 year old.The old adage,you catch more flies with honey,really applies here.
Doesnt someone have a good breeding website that they can pass on to these breeding questions??

Hi Rose,

I agree it's a shame if some people are either afraid to join up or do join but are afraid to ask questions - things can get quite heated on here but then that's part and parcel of the dog world in general ;)

Re your point about the same people answering all the time, I guess "the same people" must get fed up with being asked the same questions too - even although they are from different visitors etc. it's still tedious reading the same things again and again and must be all the more frustrating if it's a query about a members own breed.

In an ideal world we would all like to take time to explain things fully but it can be difficult to differentiate between someone asking breeding advice for the right reasons (education) and someone who comes accross as having discovered a great way of making money :(

Regards, Teri  

I forgot to mention,this is why i am so pro spaying and neutering.Leave the breeding up to the breeders and let the others be dogs :)

Alot of this indiscriminate breeding could be halted if the breeders spayed and neutered the pups before selling them,this is being done in the U.S and Australia.

I have always had my dogs ,male or females done at 6mths.(some would class this as early) and i have NEVER encountered any problems.Getting dogs spayed early is far easier and less problematic than dealing with unwanted puppies.Someone could buy a pup from the most reputable breeder in the world and have a NO bREEDING clause,but who's to say that the new owner's not going to breed from the dog,this couldnt happen if it was spayed or neutered before being sold.

I have post called which gender.

On it people have said leaving speying till second season.

As an inexperienced person its hard to know whats best. Gets confusing sometimes!

Has any research been done on this?

Julie, very many vets in the UK will not spay a bitch before her first season for many reasons, both health and behavioural. It's riskier to spay during a season, so the safest time is midway between seasons. Thus, if an owner wants a 'routine' spay, it's generally done about 3 months after the first season.
:)

Teri you make a good point in not being able to differentiate between a caring owner and one out to make bucks! The latter deserves everything they get.

I am sorry rose but there is no way I would neuter my babies and inflict an abnortmal development on them and the possible consequences on their new owners.  If youm have never owned mature entire animals how can you say that you have noticed no changes in them.  the ones that come to stay with me who were neutered early definately have not developed physically or mentally in th4e same way as their entire sisters and brothers.  Luckily in my breed the coat changes aren't drastic but the matal lack of maturity is most evident, but then they are a late maturing breed.  I like my adults to be adults not Peter Pan puppies.

Also at that time you cannot know if the pup will turn out stunning and could contribute to the breed.  Breeders cannot keep everything they breed that is of breeding potential and hope that at least some of the pups owners may decide at a later point to get more involved in the breed.

I sold the best dog pup in one litter to a couple (having kept him back until last) who bought him purely as a pet.  At nearly two years of age they ventured into the showting with him, and by their third show he had won his firtst CC and BOB.  Took him another two years to become a Champion, and on the way they aqwuired another exhibit who also is a CC and RCC winner.  As yet they are not contemplating breeding choosing to learn about the breed, but their dog will be available if there is a suitable bitch for him.  My owjn Champion bitch was also kept back, but no-one wanted a show pup, I let her go to a pet home, but had her back at 9 months old when with a young family and her high spirits they found her too much.

As it is in my own breed it is difficult to find dogs to mate to my bitches that aren't closely related to mine.  Trouble is your own malkes are only useful to other breeders and you need to use the male4s of other breeders.  Sadly a high proportion of the pups that I ahve bred, especially the males have been neutered, whereas if the owner had been willing to do the health tests they may have been of use to the breed. 

Many breeders have used a pup they or a friend have bred but has not been shown.  this is one reason we don't just say to a Pet males owner no-one will use your dog, we suggest they allow him to be appraised by the breeder or shown, as he just might be useful to the breed.

Likewise, Brainless. I've seen photographs of several dogs which were castrated at a very early age, and as adults they bear very little resemblence to their breed (other than colour!) - a huge disappointment to their owners. They are also reported to have urinary problems (dogs as well as bitches) so I would never ever consider neutering dogs or bitches before maturity.

One dog in my breed was sold as a 'pet puppy with potential'. He went on to win 35CCs ...

>When i see a post asking about breeding i know exactly what i'm going to read as the replies are always the same and from the same people.I would have thought that these regular posters would have figured out that their way is not working,by now

Silly me, I've assumed it's been different people asking the same question, not the same person coming back trying for a different answer! ;) Who knows whether they listen and take on board the information they're given or not?

Incidentally, it's the same with feeding - someone askes a question about what to feed and 'the usual suspects' leap patronisingly down their throats about various feeding methods. A case of pots and kettles I think!
:)

When i see a post asking about breeding i know exactly what i'm going to read as the replies are always the same and from the same people.I would have thought that these regular posters would have figured out that their way is not working,by now

Who says the replies are not working??  We've had a number of occasions where the OP has said "I had no idea.  I'll think again"!

Certainly when you see posts saying "how do i find a stud" or "when can i mate my bitch" you will surely find the same replies because it shows that no research whatsoever has been done and therefore the replies will not be helpful.  The very first post on the Breeding Forum is Should I offer my pet dog at Stud? and is a brilliant piece written by one of the members.  If the original question is "How do I offer my pet as a stud" then the poster hasn't even bothered to read that.  Why should be reproduce the article again?

Conversely if the post say "My bitch is of ......lines and I am looking for a stud dog who will help to improve .........." rather than "I just want to produce a litter of pet puppies" then the replies will be very different. 

If the attitude of the poster is right, then they will get helpful responses.  Horses for courses and all that!

Hear hear, Brainless!

Yeah but what i'm saying JG is that the *common* reply usually only serves to offend the poster,havnt you noticed this?

All your comments apply equally to feeding, Rose. People tell me they are offended by the 'supermarket rubbish' sneers.
:)

And you cannot compare the bottom of the barrel food to a top end food or a natural diet,can you? I honestly dont even see the point in "that" argument,it is so glaringly obvious!

Touche' ;) but supermarket food is rubbish :D It doesnt take a brain surgeon to figure that one out,just have a look on the back of the bag.