Can anyone help.I was at the Manchester show at Stafford on Thursday and i noticed signs everywhere stating CHALKING OF DOGS IS AGAINST THE RULES.ANYBODY CAUGHT DOING THIS WILL BE ASKED TO REMOVE THERE DOG.This is self explanatory.I went to the show again on Saturday and was wandering round the different halls when i was hit by the fumes from many owners of the Poodles covering them with hairspray.Some of the dogs were sneezing there heads off when the owners were spraying them surley this cannot be doing them any good.My question is why is it acceptable?Surely this must be classed as cheating the same as Chalking is.These people are still using a substance which will enhance the look of there dogs.I am not having ago at poodles or there owners but this hall was the only one where i saw it being applied.

I'm sure I remember that at the time chalking of dogs was banned that the KC announced that only water was allowed to be sprayed. I know that other substances are used and I guess that if they do not change feel or colour then although they are not permitted they are not actually cheating. I think the deviding line is rather thin though.

Regards, John

why isnt a dog shown as it is though - naturally?

Lel, if a dog has coat you can style do you know how much it can sometimes hide faults?

Take a poodle for example, by looking at it you would never be able to tell if it has good spring of rip or not, nor by looking the angulation!

hair hides faults, can make bum high dogs level, fine boned dogs appear to have more bone...theres lots you can do by styling and trimming...just you can't do anything with one of your staffs! :D

I personally think being in a groomed breed that if the dog aint that great grooming will only possibly diguise to an inexperienced person.

If a dog has bad shoulders etc you would spot it on the move. It is always nice to see nicely groomed dogs but I like to think of giving the judges a bit more credit and being able to see the structure of the dog shine through whether good or bad.

I think in my breed and it is probably similar in others that movement gives most things away. :-)))

The only thing I hate is it takes years and year to get as good as the good groomers :-)

What is natural? Obviously you would not want to show a dog that smelt of fox poo! What about the "Wet Dog" smell? It's natural but is it desirable? It could be argued that you were only making the dog smell a bit better for the benefit of the judge ;)

Good job I work and not show! My Labs smell pretty high sometimes when out working around stagnent water!

Regards, John

yes john, what about all the things we do BEFORE the show...bath black in black shampoo, reds in red shampoo, dry the hair with a hair dryer to style it!?

yet if we don't have a dog with a silky shiny coat, and white as white as snow, black a deep black etc we get looked at that we can't groom a dog!  we do enough anyway!

Seeing the post about the shampoo reminded me........is the Black shampoo for black dogs worth buying or can i make do with my Aloe Vera for puppies?   ( I have a black American cocker who will be in the show ring within three months (he is 14 weeks at present), any tips on how to get his coat in tip top condition would be great :o)

I have tried a few different black shampoos on my poodles and found some of them made my dogs coats very soft which was not what I wanted, not sure what coat texture your breed has but I would try to find a shampoo that keeps your breeds coat texture and not worry too much about the colour as not convinced they make the slightest difference as I have washed white poodles with shampoo for blacks and they have come up beautifully white. Although I never use conditioner when washing dogs for a show I always use it for washes in between shows as the coat is less likely to break when getting brushed or playing with other dogs when it has been softened by conditioner.  At your puppies age I use a very mild shampoo.

Precisely my thoughts lel, it's like when you see them being judged at the finals at Crufts, and they are still brushing & grooming them, whilst the Judge is looking at them. If only dogs could talk, I have travelled widely and walked all over the place meeting dogs, but yet to see a dog that resembles so much perfection in grooming in the real world.
I prefer to see working dogs in the show ring, at least you can see their intelligence and what they are capable of.
At the end of the day though, to each their own.

no substance must be in the dogs coat when it is in the ring.  Therefore using substances is ok, as long as it is all brushed out BEFORE entering the ring.

At luton I ended up with a cloud of chalk in and over my bag when an OES jumped up at the barrier, lent over...

the only thing you are allowed to use is water...did you know though, nowdays water comes in all colours and smells ;)

The more i learn about showing dogs the more i am beginning to realise how corrupt it is which is not really a good thing.I have only ever shown my Staffy Bitch twice and i have never seen anything unterward going on in the Staffy classes,Everybody has always been friendly and helpful.This year i will be showing a new dog again another staff.Im so glad they have such a short coat as i could not see myself covering any dog in hairspray OOpps  Sorry coloured fragrant Water and then standing there and brushing it all out.

My "ONLY A PET DOG", but she does do obedience, follows me everywhere in the bungalow, and if I'm in the bathroom and spray hairspray, even if she's lying outside in the hall, she will cough and splutter at it. I just cannot see the point in taking such drastic steps to make some dogs look like, as an example, a model out of Vogue magazine, I love any dog for what it is, naturally. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and if that means doing things unnatural to a dog, then in my opinion it is cruelty. My Sister worked in a Kennels that bred and showed dogs, and went to Crufts with them. Yes, when you show a dog for looks, it needs to look presentable but how far does it go?

You may be in for a surprise then!  Walking around Terrier benches (especially Westie and Fox) you usually run in to clouds of chalk, have met it around  other terriers too, with white or mainly white coats.  Whatever the rules, lots of people dont stick to them, I am afraid.  Hpwever, to be fair, I find coat preparation less offensive and likely to put of my dogs than the common  Terrier practice of allowing dogs to "spark" agianst each ofther, or others, to get them worked up before they go in the ring.  At a recent open show we were set up next to some terriers, and shortly before they went in they were all got out of the cages, not just to be groomed or excercised before showing, but apparently to set each other off in barking, growling, etc.  This set of one of my firends Spaniels, still in his cage, and the terrier owner, seeing how upset the spaniel was, and how it set there own dog on its toes, actively enoucraged it to get right up to the cage, causing a complete frenzy in the other dog - it may be desirable for some terriers to go in the ring in a highly excited state, but not a apaniel!  My pugs were puzzled, but un fazed, however had they shown signs of distress I am not sure what I should have done.

Getting back to poodles, some judges do take a hard line about the hairspray, and demand that top knots are token down if obviously lacquered.  If I remember one judge a couple of years back (might have been at crufts) ran her fingers through the Standard Poodle top knots, caused a bit of an uproar among the competitors, and foreign handlers dont see what all the fuss is about.

From my own point of view, I appreciate that if it is a rule, then it has to be followed, but I dont see why it is a rule.  After all, what changes the appearance or texture of a coat more than clipping, yet this is mandatory in lots of breed presentation.  Coming to showing dogs after years of showing horses, this prohibition came as a real surprise.  With horses, we coudll use anything we wanted!
bye
Gwen

Definately depends on the breed Will.  In the UK and Europe my breed are shown as nature intended except they should be well groomed and clean.  I bath mine 2 to 6 times a year.  If we have had a lot of rain and they have got clay stained then they will get a Bath say before a big shoiw like Crufts. 

Just trying to think back and I think last time mine were bathed may have been in August, as we had been in some pretty stagnant water.

I have used some of that Shampoos that you don't need to rinse out on legs and bums to clean them up last minute if they have got stained from something.

In the USA they trim them, use tons of chalk, dyes etc.  They have a thick double coat and they will shave most of the tummy haior to make them look more on leg.  dogs with low tailsets will have haor from behind the tail trimmed so it looks better set.  Silly thin is anyone can see why and what they ahve done and anyone who knows what they are looking at will know the faul, but ther they are mostly showing under non specialist judges who maybe won't realise.

Brainless think we were typing at the same time. That was my thought a trained eye spots most things.

Had to laugh at a poodle couple at a limit show a week or so ago They used a can & a half of the "non"lacquer spray on a the top knot of thei Mini Poodle they won the Vet class & got beaten in the dogs other class, they tham spent 20 minutes putting another spray on the dogs coat to get rid of the "non"laquer stuff. Meanwhile a lady with a veteran Standard poodle with a correct coat did a bit or tidying up & finishing with no spray being applies, it was  like a breath of fresh air The bitch looked just as good well actually better & came second to the mini. 

My cavaliers get shown without powder or spray They are bathed the night before & popped in drycoats so that they can sleep upside down & now have their coats sticking up all over the place, all they have used on them is want I would use on my own hair, an all natural shampoo & leave in conditioner(made for me by a friend)

I use eye envy on  my boy who has SHM as his eyes water slightly & he get a very small amount of staining under his eyes. They get their pads trimmed otherwise they would be walking on a inch or two of coat

My Beardies & BCs were all shown in a natural state & as they all did agility & obedience & the BC's did sheep trialling they were extremely fit dogs as were my GSDs,  unfit GSDs are rarely seen in the rings with judges who prefer the"International"type as they have to be able to gait for prolonged periods I can't comment on the current English type but they used to do the once round & up & down & maybe a couple of times round as a class so unfit dogs did win in the past but I never watch them nowadays

Basically, it isn't acceptable! So your recourse is to complain, at the time, to the show secretary, who is obliged to report the complaint to the KC (I believe the cost of such a complaint is in the region of £35). If reported during the show a sample of hair is taken to be tested, and if found to breach the rules further proceedings will be taken.

The only way to stop the rules being broken is to complain. Everyone who turns a blind eye is letting it continue.

I show poodles and think there is more for people to complain about than a bit of spray, I may (or may not!!) use some 'water' on my dogs at a show but if i did it would only be to enhance the picture, but can assure you that my dogs are not pampered they run freely on the local beach and look like a tip except at a show!  Folk should worry more about show dogs that are never exercised or kept in cages almost 24/7, I feel more sorry for these and would rather report folk for that rather than ones that enhance their dogs at what is after all a beauty parade.  Would you expect to see miss world without her makeup on?

Clipping can't change the texture of a coat - that's innate, and can only be altered by outside means.

To be fair, I have no breathing problems, but even I get wheezy going around the benches of some breeds. The pollution can't be good for dogs' lungs, and must surely breach H&S rules for human health ...

When is Miss World seen gaiting round the ring? ;) A beautiful cripple is a loser ...

Dog showing is hardly Miss World is it!
It's about which dogs meet the breed standard - it's about conformation, movement, coat, angulation, bite, standard, type of head etc, etc, not who is the most beautiful dog with it's hair & beauty products on.

Absolutely! The coat is the icing on the cake - and is no good without quality cake beneath.

Yes, but the difference being, Miss World has a choice of her own at what SHE does regarding beauty enhancements and make up, whereas with a dog it's different, it's done for them whether they like it or not. Spraying a dog with hairspray is not normal in any way, shape or form. Whether it's brushed out or not, the dogs still lick their themselves, and after I have sprayed my hair, if I happen to have sprayed willy nilly and got some in my mouth, it is vile to say the least. Unless some-one manufactures a hairspray especially for dogs. It was Poodles my sister showed, and it certainly wasn't done in her day.

My poodles sprayed or not are healthier and much much fitter with far better body and muscle condition than some specimens of allegedly working breeds I have judged or had my hands on.  In fact my vet, who incidently is a farm vet, says he wishes more of the dogs he sees were in the excellent condition that mine are.  As I said I would be far more concerned about the amount of show dogs that dont see the outside of their owners house or kennel except to go to a show!

Fifi, as someone who shows a breed which may (or may not) get a 2 minute combing before going in the ring, I never thought I'd ever be in agreement with a Poodle exhibitor - but I am!!!!
What goes on in the ring or immediately beforehand is not as important as the dog's lifestyle. Trim, style, spray and groom all you like - it still won't put muscle or body on a dog & a good judge won't be fooled however good the grooming.
Having said that, I still won't go near the Poodle ring (especially the Standards)  if I can help it - you just take up so much r-o-o-m with all your paraphenalia :D

Thank you anwen for appreciating that glamour and soundness can go together!  And I have to agree with you that maybe we do take up a little more than our allotted space with all our bits a pieces!!!

There are hairsprays, that don't contain laquer, made for dogs. You only have to look round the stalls at shows to see this.  I have been showing poodles for nearly 30 years and they may have not used sprays in these days like you say but there were plenty of alternatives eg. sugar and water mixture for one was used. I agree breed type, construction and movement are most important but there is nothing horrendous about enhancing the picture and creating glamour to go with the soundness underneath the coat.  My dogs always win well under working and gundog judges who appreciate the sound dog underneath!

Chalking is just as bad, the Bull Terrier benches are dreadful, the floor is WHITE, the people wear white coats, and my black trousers were white because a dog brushed passed me.  We watched them at a show last year.  The dog that won a class was obscured from view when its owner patted him for winning the class.  The cloud of chalk was horrendous.
Dawn.

But of course presentation counts when showing  - otherwise why are gun dogs 'stacked', why are GSD's legs placed in a certain way and why do some breeds fling bait around to get the desired expression ? - good presentation can make a poor dog look good and a good dog look fantastic -:D. Personally I have no objection to the use of 'beauty products' and I think it a little two faced of the kennel club to insist on the water only rule yet take money from the trade stand holders at Crufts who quite obviously are selling products for use in the showring :D :D.

Almost all exhibitors of a coated breed will use 'product' to enhance their dog at a show and those who do the best job will very often be in the winning line up - beauty may be only skin deep but it does'nt half help ;)

Yvonne

Lets not forget, too, that ANY substance left on a dogs coat is. strictly, against the rules. This includes shampoo or conditioner used when bathing, if every trace isnt rinsed out, dry shampoo to remove the splatters of dirt (or worse) round the bottom or kicked up between car and bench, leave in conditioner (home made or not) products to remove tear stains - the list goes on and on! Have to admit, though usually being benched close to Westies and wearing dark clothes I have to jump out of the way when one comes past.

Fillis, Now why would you ever want to jump out the way :-))))

;) Am thinking of buying some camaflauge pants, so then a few extra patches wont show.

Oh, and Will - did those signs stop people from chalking their dogs? Certainly they carried on from what I could see. So dont just blame the poodle people - its everywhere :D

I am so glad that I've got Spanish Water Dogs, no combing, brushing, spraying, styling or anything !  I was around the Shitzsu, no can't spell, benches on Saturday and was totally shocked.  There were people there with hot tongues, rolling their topknots back, spraying them, putting whitener on them all sorts and the products were all their on show for everyone to see !

I don't use products on my Pomeranian's when I show them although plenty do.  Sorry if the dog hasn't got the correct harshness of coat to make it stand up then it shouldn't be shown in my opinion ! :d

OMG - it sounds more like a hairdressing competition than a dog show :D

Daisy

Fillis

My Organic conditioner is NOT home made & there is no residue left on the coat as it is absorbed replacing the natural oils that shampooing removes It is the same stuff that I used on my Beardies & that got the all clear from the KC on the three times my Champion bitch was tested after winning the CC The friend who makes it is not an amateur but has her own business & makes natural organic shampoos etc on a commerical basis. I do know the KC rules pity the others odn't or choose to ignore them

If the dogs are bathed on a regular basis then any shampoo removes the natural oils no matter how gentle, so conditioner is required to replace the natural oils IN the hairs

i just getting into showing my 6 month oes and ive been advise by other oes people not to bath him and just to spray with water when brushing him up

This is the reason most of us in our breed would bath the dog a week and no less than 3 days before a show.  I think the people with highly groomed breeds actually choose them because they like the hair dressing :D  I like wash and wear, I don't know what the iron is and never use a hairdryer :D

lol you want to see my hair ,dog has a  mason pearson hairbrush i have what ever one  i can find shoved at back  of sofa lol

I was only pointing out that ANYTHING left in the coat is against the rules. and often folk use things without giving it a second thought. I use shampoo and conditioner on my dogs before a show, and sometimes something to reduce static. If my dogs coat is tested and I have left something in the coat I have to take the consequences. No need to get paranoid - I dont care one way or another what other people use as long as it doesnt ruin my clothes when the brush past :D

Cheers yvonne, a woman with views the same as mine!

First champshow I ever went to I watched a Bullterrier with a totally naked pink face having gloppy paint stuff put on to make its face white, this was in addition to the whole box of chalk which went into its coat!!!!  Surely the judge isn't stupid and would recognise a painted dog??  - it still got placed tho

The biggest problem is that some people use products and some don't.  Then the ones that do (use them) win so that the ones that use nothing get fed up and are then tempted to follow suit.  I also believe that if the dogs coat is good enough then it won't need any 'help' but put the natural dog against an 'enhanced' one and visually, it can't hold a candle :(  Having said that, a trek accross a red muddy car park can ruin a dogs coat, any pale dog is going to end up stained if nothing is done to remedy it :rolleyes:

Worst I ever saw was Crufts the year before last.  Bedlington people don't seem to use much of anything but the foreign dogs...........
and guess who won???  - yup! a french dog who was so chalked up it left white everywhere it went !!!!

Now this is where I feel the foreign visitors should be made very aware of our rules on the matter.  As yet we haven't had a US entrant inour breed (one was coming but found the costs of having to bring the dog in cargo too much), now if their trimmed dogs win it will mean all the newer people may think it the way to go, and there goes are no nonsence naturally presented breed.

But how can we know whether they are aware or not? Look at the number of dogs from overseas that have been entered in classes for which they were overqualified at Crufts in the last 2 years.

Ues even our own eshibitors at top level having a dog disqualified from a Group win at /Crufts for entering an overqualified import in Post Graduate.  Any win counting towards a title in any country with which KC have reciprocal arrangemeents count.  That woudl mean any half way decent US dog would have won points, as they have dogs made up siometiomes in a few days at their first shows.

I have to say this. Look at the foreign visitors booing and cheering around the Flatcoat ring at the last Crufts during the challenge! I was disgusted! It was a blatant attempt to sway the judge!

Regards, John

Thanks to everybody for pointing out all the various points that they have seen at shows and sharing your experiences with us.The next shows i attend i will be armed with a camcorder and i will most definately will be on the look out for all these various things.I think i will make it into a DVD and send it to the Kennel club to highlight the problem.Can any body think of a good title name for it.I quite like SHOW CHEATS Vol 1 where i will name and shame them.

Be very careful you do not fall foul of the privacy laws If someone tells you to stop taping them you have to do just that & make sure you get their ring numbers

Put up you hand if you remember the poodle who was found with dye in its coat but the owner got away with it as they said they didn't do it !!!!!!! so they ruling was the dog lost the win but the owner went unpunished because it was done by a third party !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!