Ok then all you JH out there, I was asked this tonight at ringcraft  by one of the trainers as they know my daughter has just started to do JH, but I didnt know the answer.
If you are doing a T and are just completing the top of the T and the judge moves to a different position on the base line, from the middle where you started to a corner, do you go straight to the judge on the diagonal or stay straight down to complete the T. I would think you would go to the judge but then you're not doing the complete T, answers PLEASE.

You complete your T and then return to the judge.

We've been there before Lady D!! :p

Just a few times Val, but my memory is still good. :-D :-D

Thanks very much Ladies, I shall tell them the answer next week.

Your very welcome Jenny.

Its the same with any pattern, whereever the judge moves to, you complete your pattern, before returning to the judge.

DEPENDS!!!!!  If judge says "do a T" finish the T then present the dog infrount of the judge!

HOWEVER if the judge says "...and back to me" normally they mean go straight back to them.  Its a way of checking the handler is listening.

HTH

Sorry Roxanne I disagree "back to me" can be interpreted in many ways.  If a judge asked me to do a T and then back to me i would still interpret that as do the complete T, not a half T. (Not that I would be in JH at my age :-D)

Same sort of things as when at one competition my daughter was placed down for not looking were the judges feet were pointing,  This is making a mockery of the fact that it is how a person handles their dog that is important. One of the reasons that my son and daughter never got involved in that competition again. 

The whole idea of the T is to see if the handler has the ability to handle the dog on various turns, and keep control and  make a smooth changeover of sides. the idea of the judge moving is to check whether whilst doing the pattern the handler has kept an eye on the judges position, if the handler is prewarned then that defeats the object of the judge moving.

As you well know, now you are not able to compete in JH anymore, JH is the training ground for youngsters to handle in breed. It is not or should not be a competition on choreography.

I did say normally.  Maybe T isn't the best.  The 2...and back to me" is normaly used on a up and down with "up and back to me" However Many judges who use the "...and back to me" want you to go straight back to them!

I'm not sure JH is a "training ground" for breed, there is a different style in handling SLIGHTLY compared to the breed, it is a competition on how well a handler can handle their dog (don't forget adult handling is becomming VERY popular now, which is where I intend to remember my golden rule for!

I personaly use a slightly different style from breed ring to handling ring and I do this in my training of JH (pamerla cross-stern critised our JH training, but she didn't know the story, basic was we told a young girl to stack a normally free stood breed because she had a young fidgity dog, with whom free stacking ment she would not have done all the winning in JH as she has (she would have still been in line up most likly, but not 1st!)

At the same time its not choreography...that is to stay with HTM!

Now that is more nearer the mark Roxanne, yes it is very usual in an up and down for the judge to say up and back to me.  I do that myself in breed judging.

Have to say I tend to agree with Pamela on this one, if a dog is usually free-stood as a breed then thats how it should be shown in handling, particularly a young dog. 

I still think that even if it is not nowadays (which was one of the reasons my children did not join in the circus, although they both did very well sticking to showing their breeds as they should have been shown.) when Joe Cartledge started the JHA that was his vision, that youngsters should be taught how to handle before they went on the breed competition.

Winning in JH at all costs should not be put before being taught the correct way to handle a particular breed of dog. My daughter won her first Semi at the age of ten handling a dog she hadn't met before that day, due to her usual bitch coming into season, he was a free stood breed and she handled as he should be, free stood, even though he was a fidgetty puppy of 9 months!!

Think of it another way, you are about to learn to drive, you will be taught that you never cross your hands over on the steering wheel when turning.  That tends to change as you become a more experienced driver after passing your test, but you will still remember that golden rule in the right circumstances.  If you were not taught that way by your instructor, then you would not now it was the correct method.

It saddens me that you are saying that there are two different types of handling 1 for the breed and 1 for handling competitions.  Thats what a number of us saw as likely to happen 7-8 years ago, and it appears we were right in our predictions.  I remember seeing a small child practicing her patterns without a dog, that was to me the ultimate in making Junior Handling a choreographed performance, she could have gone into the ring with a stuffed dog on wheels and still performed those patterns.

OK I'm going to put another thing forward.  If a breed is stacked on the table but normally free stood on the floor, why can't it be stacked on the floor (or free stood on the table)

This girl wants to win at handling, we are only trying to help her win, I have the patients, I handle a malamute I have trained since a baby, I didn't go in a JH class with her untill she was ok (then I only took her because her mum was going in the group, I went BJH!) As you can imgine though, I was very upset when reading something published in the dog world about our training club and the 3 JH trainers (me, dad and grandad) when it says we think all dogs are stacked (see note malamute freestood, my aussies = freestood!)

I have handled a dalmation that you couldn't touch the legs on, but this particular girl couldn't cope with fidgiting (her sister wouldn't handle a setter because it slobberd!)

I'm only saying the truth.  There is a different, theres no golden rule in breed, you can take a crap dog in JH and win.

Where the problem with practising pattern without a dog?  I have done this many times, I have made my trainees do patterns without a dog, to practise straight lines etc without dragging the dog round the ring 20 times.  When I first started handling I DID practise with a stuffed dog, I put a coller and lead on it and practised (OK I was 3-4 and wasn't allowed to have control of a dog, only at shows could I do this!)  We also teach the adult who only want to show to move without a dog.  we don't teach chorgraphy, we teach how to do a triangle with straight lines to show your dogs movement of to its best advantage!

however I know there are judges who want chorgraphy, and I have won under them, I have learnt my styles, I can switch between the two and do well, I would NEVER risk a dog, but if I know I can safely do something I will.

I somehow wonder why so many people offer to let me handle their dogs, I must be doing something right, loose lead, calm attitude, firm but kind.....but everone has their own opinion!

In answer to your first question, it is a matter of tradition, and a long tradition at that.

In my opinion if this girl couldn't cope with fidgetting then she needs to practice and practice again until she is competent to cope.  It seems that the win at all costs fashion is creeping into JH and that is something that saddens me.  Everyone nowadays, not only in dogs, seems to want to cut out the good old fashioned idea of practice makes perfect.

If her sister wouldn't handle a Setter because it slobbered, then to my mind she is not cut out to be a handler of dogs.

That is sad fact but true you can take anything into a JH ring and win, but there are a lot of golden rules in breed handling, most of them breed specific, such as freestanding or stacking.

The whole idea to me of showing dogs is to get a rapport with them, that includes the practising with a dog on the end of a lead.  I still do not agree with practicising patterns without a dog, seems a totally wrong concept on the art of showing a dog to me.

My children all started with a well trained older animal, who knew their jpb, but if the handler made a mess of things didn't respond, thus teaching the child to respect the dogs needs.

Nowhere have I question your abilities as a handler, I am sure you are very competent, but my opinion as someone who has trained my own two children, one who qualified for the finals 4 times and was Junior Handler of the Year and one who was 3rd in the Final, is that JH is becoming a very different thing to dog showing, not at all what the originator (Joe Cartledge) had in mind.

Shame but there it is, maybe I should be pleased that my kids are now far too old to compete.  But are very successful in breed showing, in a variety of breeds.  As are a number of handlers who are of their generation.

My daughter when she was interested in showing the dogs trained and showed my Kizi from puppy.  It was most annoying for her to be told she would have done better if she had a more expereinced exhibit.  Surely noticing her exhibit was wrong and puttin it right counts as handling, as it is how well they handles aqnd not how well the dog behaves, surely that matters???

That is exactly what I mean that surely is the whole point of handling Brainless, not that you have a dog that is like a statue, anyone can hold one of those, but that the child is able to cope with a difficult dog and correct it.

There are some judges who judge the statues and think it is correct, in my opinion a child who works hard and manages to handle a dog that is fidgety is the best handler on the day.

I can remember my daughter winning a class at with a young Airedale who wouldn't keep 4 feet on the ground!  The judge gave her the class and said that she did so because she consistantly and calmly kept putting the bitch back into position, talking to her, without losing her cool!  I thought that was good handling, not having a robotic dog???