hi
just a few questions on breeding, we are considering maybe breeding our dog.
1) how old does he have to be, before he is suitable to go to stud?
2) how long is a female west highland terrier pregnancy?
3) we know our westie's full breeding history, but we are also aware he will need certain medical tests before we can put him to stud, could anyone tell us what these tests are and give us a rough idea of the costs of such tests?

many thanks in advance for any help given
lau, si and jackjack xxx

Have a read of the first post on the 'Breeding' forum of this site. It will help with many of your questions. All breeds of dog have the same average pregnancy - 63 days. If you are genuinely interested in dog breeding you should also read "The Book of the Bitch" by Evans and White, which will tell you about the female side of the proceedings (as stud owner you will be expected to know this too). I'm assuming you have a large collection of WHWT-specific books teaching you about the well-bred lines of Westies and that your boy has seveal of these names in his pedigree. Unfortunately westies are a popular breed for puppy farmers and many are extremely poorly bred, so you'll need to know which bitches to refuse.

It's worth remembering that bitch owners approach the owner of their chosen stud and ask if they're willing to let him serve their bitch, and the 'shop-window' where they look for possible studs is in the show-ring. If a dog does well, and is clearly a good example of his breed, people will want to use him. If he isn't, then they won't!

Before doing any tests you must be able to answer certain questions fully,

How can you ascertain your dog is a good example of the breed? The pedigree doesn't guarantee anything unfortunately. Why do you want to breed him?  You will change his temprement without a doubt, he will be prone to leaving his mark on everything and anything also once used. What does he have to offer the breed that a top stud dog in the UK doesn't? Bare in mind that westie stud fees are not that high as they produce few puppies. A none champion stud dog fee can be as low as £100 , A top westie stud dog Ch with a lot of CC's can also be around £250 some are higher but not by much.

People will not be queuing at the door to use you dog at stud unless it is an excellent example of the breed from successful , healthy and by healthy I mean proven to be healthy lines.

Can I also ask when you say  "we know our westie's full breeding history" what DO you actually know about his full breeding history??? 

Have you considered talking to the dogs breeder about using him at stud? what do they have to say about it?  I am guessing you have not talked to them or you would know by now what is and isn't required.

Healthy tests do not alone make a suitable stud, just like show success  doesn't. The succcess and suitablility of a stud dog is a whole package of criteria..

You may also find that he has endorsements on his KC registration which means that any pups sired by him would not be able to be KC reg. No good breeder would use such a dog.

Part of the service of having a stud dog should be giving advice and being on the end of a phone to help throughout the pregnancy and during and after whelping.  How on earth can you do this when you don't even know the length of gestation?  Presumably, you have a pedigree and kc registered dog and now think it would be nice to earn some money.  Please read the first post on this forum.

I guess this is why the poster is asking these questions to find out information. How is he/she supposed to find out things if they are criticised for asking?

To be honest, Louise, if someone is considering breeding their pet (of whatever species) I would expect them to have read as many books as they can get their hands on. There are many books about all of the various breeds which have all this information - and pictures of good examples to help them learn what a good one actually looks like!

Louise, if you anyone were to type "how to breed dog uk" into Google, the first site mentioned is the Kennel Club site.  On that site there are information guides (again the first button) with information on 'breeding from your bitch' and 'thinking of using your dog at stud'.  Both basically say that breeding from your pet is not a good idea and explain in detail why.  Surely that is the very least that anyone with not even the very basic of knowledge would do before seriously considering breeding breeding from their pet?  How can someone with so little knowledge possibly give help and support to families who have bought the pups that their dog has produced?

I've think that I want to make jewellery!  I don't have a clue how to begin as I haven't done anything like that before.  I've borrowed 3 books from the library.  I've booked a course of classes starting at Easter.  THEN I'll decide if and where to go from there.  And that is not selling my mistakes to the general public who will have to live with and pay for the consequences of my actions for the next 12 years!!

Like I just said on another post Val, that seems to be how things are nowadays everybody wants things yesterday, no-one is prepared to study and gain experience in anything!!!

Saddens me that this is how the world is going.

Maybe its an age thing, I was always taught that anything that you want to do well, you have to take your time at and serve your apprenticeship.

I don't disagree with what you are all saying, but how do we know that the poster isn't going to buy a book and do there homework all i was saying is that this could be there first point of call. They may not intend breeding for years. The poster is only asking some questions they did not say they were going to breed. Maybe they are just finding out the basics before they decide they want to breed and then intend do the extensive research.

We only know what the poster posts!  And so replies are given accordingly.  We don't have crystal balls (I don't know about John - he does walk funny!;)) so we can't ASSUME anything, right or wrong, good or bad!  We just reply to the post as it is written.

If your assumption is correct, then OH should have put, "This is my first port of call" as some do and they receive a different reply!

Breeding dogs and selling your mistakes to an unsuspecting public is not like making cakes for the WI!! :)  The majority of puppy producers don't take their responsibilities seriously enough.

<<(I don't know about John - he does walk funny!)>>

That's only cos me wellies are a bit tight! :( But you should see me at Crufts in me short trousers! (And I've promised a kilt if I get to the big ring!!)

But will you wear the kilt PROPERLY John :D

Anne

I do hope so, if you do John please make sure we have prior warning so I can come along with my video camera ;-)  Just to see your legs mind, before your mind thinks other things!!!! :-D

xx

Oh yes, I'm entitled to wear a kilt Ann. My cousin wears his most of the time!

But I wouldn't get too excited you two. Dogs from the Gamekeepers ring don't get to the big ring so I'm safe ;)

There you go John, putting me on a horse and not letting me ride :-D :-D

xx

You will just have to make do with my breek LD, But with gun stockings and red garter flashes my legs don't look bad, for an old timer, though I say so myself! :p Ask your sister if you don't believe me. ;)

I shall have to check this out myself before giving my opinion, trouble is I'm only there on Terrier day, so how we going to work this one. ROTFLOL!!

I don't think turning up on terrier day wearing "Ceremonial" gundog cloths would go down well. I'd probably get arrested! I don't know though, Crufts has always been my nemesis ever since my trousers got a 2nd in Veteran Borzoi, but that's a story I'm not getting into here! :d

Oh go on John please come Terrier Day, we'd all love it if you were round the Border ring in your ceremonials ;-)

xx

" don't think turning up on terrier day wearing "Ceremonial" gundog cloths would go down well. I'd probably get arrested! I don't know though,"

Don't worry John if we spy you on terrier day we will say " that is just John" you will be fine

Pam

I understand your point Louise123 :) I know nothing about Westies though so can't advise on health tests required. If you google dog stuff Champdogs comes up an awful lot, so it's understandable guests will post wanting advice.

duplicate sorry

But !! the point we are making is as responsible dog owers/breeders/exhibitors/enthusiast we cannot just answer the question can we ??   :-)))

Some people will just breed anything so it is only moral duty to discourage it.

I know it is not the same but just because someone or something can produce doesn't mean the should.

It is a criminal offence to have sex with someone if you knownly have certain things such as aids, maybe a bit of a exagerated example but just making a point.

I just saw a post of as westie board where a rescue is at wits end as they have 2 CMO dogs in , Severe cases asking for help.  Would a stud dog owner or breeder take these 2 puppies back , refund their money say at £500-£600 a pup etc etc they probably only get £100 in stud fee and think that is it.. no the responsibility is there long term or it should be.

Do people actually realise the amount of top exhibitors that DO Not keep stud dogs.

I think people are being a bit harsh here. The origional poster has only asked for some assistance in finding out this information, they may not even go ahead with it. All that needed to be done was to point them in the right direction. As someone said, Champdogs is all over google once you enter dog into it, so its natural someone would come here to ask for advice.

The poster has already said that they are aware of health test that would need to be done, and they have been reffered books also. There's really no need to get carried away.

"It is a criminal offence to have sex with someone if you knownly have certain things such as aids, maybe a bit of a exagerated example but just making a point."

Yep, that is a exagerated example there, and tottaly false also. (The rest of the post wasnt aimed directly at you either btw :)) Its not illegal to have sex with someone if you're HIV+. If you knew you had it, and refused to wear a condom and the other party did not know, then that is. If people are aware of the risks, and both parties know about it, then it isnt. Its a personal choice.

*Steps of soap box* :D

Sorry, used to work on National Helplines.

Well, let's lighten things a little - I've only just read this thread, entitled 'stud age', and what do we inevitably come down to, scrolling down.....John and his funny walk, John and his trousers, John and his breeks, and...wait for it...John and his Kilt.

Quite what this has got to do with stud age, I'm not quite sure, but I think I'd better warn OH when we 're all in the team class at Crufts together - menage a trois???  Only kidding, John :-) :-) :-)

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

My mind is still stuck at his crystal balls..........:D

It all comes down to the lowest common denominator Jo, PANTS! ;)

John, lets keep this right, if you are wearing the kilt, should that not be NO PANTS :D :D

Arr Kay, but what a Scotsman wears under his kilt is between him and his maker ;)

And everyone else should it happen to be windy.. ;)

You don't get much wind in the NEC I'm glad to say! :p

I predict a plummeting in the level of good taste in this topic now! ;) :D

This is tue JG. I'm not to everybody's taste. (Can't understand why though!) :d

I meant the reference to 'wind' ;) John! :D

There's a fair bit of hot air in there round the rings!  And I dread to think of the after effects of those ultra-expensive burgers!

Jo

<<There's a fair bit of hot air in there round the rings!>>

But I thought you all knew, I'm Lord Of The Rings! ;)

:D

Well, that stirred things up nicely, my apologies John :D 

Gonzo,   :-)

My statement is totally true not false at all, :-)  You have taking my words and interpretated them how you thought I meant it :-)   You may have been better adding to my post  " your statement is true if and then adding .............   the rest if you felt so the need rather than rubbishing my comments.  Heaven help me if I correct ever legal iregularity I saw on a public board ;-)

I didn't say " HIV+"  and   I didn't say  "Its illegal to have sex with someone if you're HIV+ and the other person is a concenting parting knowing fully that you had Aids"   Anybody with a bit of common sense would know it is fine for  2 consenting parties :-)) , I said Aids and I meant that if a person had Aids and knowingly had sex with a unknown party ( sorry that I didn't put these exact words but I thought people would see what I meant. My whole point was really about knowingly passing things on,  I was making a mere point and not expecting it disected) :-))    re-read my post and maybe you will see what I meant. Anyway this is way off topic now.

Gonzo,  maybe people are being a bit hard BUT is it not better to be hard and truthful than lead people up the garden path thinking stud work is easy money and doesn't come without moral and legal obligation.. Asking how old a dog should be is probably the last thing someone should ask and if anyone read even one book that question would have been answered.

Harsh is what good breeders do often when they stop their line dead when they find something not quite right and start again after say 10 years and a few generations, but harsh is what they do when they are breed entusiasts :-)))

The other thing I would like to say and it again may sound harsh ,  IF the poster  knows the test requirements that need done on a westie through reading this in itself suggests lack of reading as although I don't like to make this point on a board but westies DO NOT actually have any health test requirements so the reading and knowledge gaining didn't get much further than the first few pages did it.

Can you see my point Gonzo, people often come on asking for additional help , claiming to have done this and that when a breed enthusiast that reads it can spot a mile a way just how little research they have done.  you could find hundreds of info in 1 hour on the internet.

I think we are morally obligated to comment at times.  I try hard not to but this is my breed and I am passionate about the welfare of it.  I have had several lovely dogs but knew that didn't automatically make them stud dogs.

No offense meant :-)))

BFN Pam

No offence taken Blue :)

It is quite easy to read things the wrong way on forums, lol :D

The others have already told you that there is a lot more to consider before offering a dog at stud.  for a styart people with bitches need to want to use him.

the naswer to your age question would be at least 14 months old, as you wouldn't have the results of most health tests until then.  In practice unless the dog has had a phenomenal puppy carreeer people aren't going to ask to use a young dog, as they will use his sire who has proven to produce the goods, or wait until he is older to see what he will produce to other bitches.  Unlike for a dog bitch owners can't afford to waste the time and breeding potential of their bitches, with some only having annual seasons and trying to time a litter their opportunities can be limited, so they want to ensure they get the match as perfect as they can.

for a start in a coated breed the bitch will be out of the ring and the field if she is a worker for at least 6 months, and likely longer in the showring as she won't be in tip top condition again untl her pups are around 6 months old.

Good breeders therefore are understandably fussy about their choice of stud dogs.  You shouldn't be wanting to accept any breeder that isn't.