Im looking for someone who would help me get a couple of utonagan puppies.
I live in the United States.  Please if anyone knows of a way to get them here
please email me at:  cyndi20me@aol.com
I'm really serious about these dogs.  I have never seen anything like them before.
They are the most beautiful dog that I have ever seen.  Please email me if you
have any information.  Thank you,
                                     Cyndi

Guest there are two recognised breeds that have the wolf Characteristics they are trying for with the Utonogans.  It may be better to try and import those and get them recognised, rather than starting from scratch with a breed that is in the early stages of development.

The two breeds I am thinking of are the Czech and Saarloos Wolf dogs.  You can find their standards on the website of the FCI.

Utanagons are similar to the Northern Inuit Dogs, I belive that they are bred the same way.

Can't understand for the life of me why they got KC status.  They are an abomination to pedigree sled dogs.  In fact I would go as far as to say that I have very serious health and welfare concerns for this so called breed.  Have you thought about just getting a Siberian Husky or Alaskan Malamute or German Shepherd Dog and just leave it at that.   

They are not recognised by the KC as far as I am aware

I thought I'd read somewhere that they had got KC status.  Must be mistaken.  Was it those Northern Inuit.  Same thing really as far as I can tell.  Whatever, they are a disgrace to the dog world. 

There are many breeds i feel are a disgrace to the dog world, although to spare owners feelings theres no need for comments like that!

Can't understand for the life of me why they got KC status.
They have not got KC status - they are merely a cross breed at this point in time.

These dogs are a mixture of 3 breeds crossed, So are not pedigree's.
No 2 litters look alike, And they are being sold from £700.00 to well over £1000.00, So why not buy a pedigree Mal, Sibe or Gsd,  for a lot less money, Plus you'll know what sort of temprement it will have. 

You might find this interesting

http://www.dogstuff.info/northern_inuit_ripoff.html

quite long though!

This not a KC recognised breed. The KC did change the name of a breed I thing it could be either the Greenland dog or the Canadian Eskimo dog, certainly not the utonagan. You can check the recognised breeds by looking here on the KC site by clicking on the Kennel club link on the above link & then breed standards, if there isn't a breed standard then the breed is not recognised, simple as that ;)

The Greenland Dog used to be called the Eskimo Dog (not to be confused with the Canadian Eskimo Dog - different breed) - the breeds name was changed by the KC in 1990 :)

I knew they had changed one of those two was it that long ago Time flies doesn't it

The reason people in the UK don't want to buy a pedigree mal or siberian husky is because of the appalling practice of inter-breeding in this country, leading to hip dysplasia and eye problems just to mention only two big problems with sibes.  I have a 75% wolf cross sibe, and the result is an 8 year old "dog" who has never had to go to the vet in those 8 years for anything other than his vaccinations (which he no longer has) and for treatment following a period of stupidity on my behalf when I fed him on "complete" dog food biscuits, instead on raw meat and bones, which he is now on.

People like me in the UK are absolutely fed up with paying a fortune for a "pedigree" only to spend years and thousands of pounds at the vets due to a whole host of problems.  You are lucky to get your dog into double figures.

Give me a good honest mongrel any day - which is what my boy is - a good cross between domestic and wild "dog".  Same species, just one has not been messed about and ruined by man and his obnoxious desire to create a certain look.  To say that Northern Inuits/Utonagan's (same "breed") are an abortion of nature is to say that wolves are an abortion of nature.  The idea of a utonagan is to create a wolf look - not a freak with a tail a certain length, spots of a certain colour, legs of a certain length - just an overall genuine wolfey look.  I hope that the breeders of these dogs are not practising the abominable habit of interbreeding - I don't know, but as far as I am concerned it will be the finish of the Utonagan if it ever gets Kennel Club status because then the breed will start to get genetic defects just like any other breed.

Mongrels have hip displasia and eye problems and every other genetic problem known to dogs.  Inbreeding does not create these problems but careful breeding with health tested animals can minimise the occurance, that sort of breeding tends to go hand in hand with pedigree breeding.
Interesting that your "wolf" did not do well on commercial foods, I saw on the animal park programme that all sorts of vitamins etc had to be added to their packs fresh food to ensure their good health sadly it was not enough to ensure the litter they were filming did not die from malnutrition probably would have done better on a complete but they wanted it to be like nature.

Inbreeding DOES cause problems.  I used to have a so-called "pedigree" German Shorthaired Pointer.  She was a Wittekind - which was the best line you could have then for GSP's apparently.  I was appalled to see from her pedigree that Wittekind Gregory was her father but also appeared several times on both the dam and sire's line.  Can't remember the intimate details, but it was then that I decided this was WRONG.  I don't know if this still happens, but there must be a reason why EVERY SINGLE PEDIGREE - apart from Jack Russells apparently - has a long list of genetic problems.  Someone on this site has bragged about their mal's hipscores being reduced from 17 to 13.  That is absolutely appalling - 0 being the best.  I had a long chat with my vet about hip scores when our boy was under her care for the damage done to him by eating complete dog food, and she said that in her opinion a decent hip score was one in single figures - and the lower rather than the higher end.

Our boy is on the BARF diet.  I suspect that in the animal park programme you watched they either couldn't afford to give the wolves enough meat and raw meaty bones, or else were neglecting to give them fruit and vegetables.  Wolves and therefore dogs are not carnivores, they are herbivores, and it is not sufficient to give just meat and bones, unless they are allowed to eat the whole carcase, in which case they will eat the guts first plus the stomach contents (thus getting sufficient vegetation in a form they can absorb - pre-digested).  We give our boy smoothies of raw fruit and vegetables three times a week, with cod liver oil and a multivitamin for good measure, although I believe the latter is totally unnecessary, it is just me anthropomorphising!  To our knowledge there is no complete dog food that we can get in the UK that will suit our boy.  We did find one that he was on for a few years - Supa Greyhound Racer - but it eventually made him very ill indeed, and that's when he became a BARF-er!

>Someone on this site has bragged about their mal's hipscores being reduced from 17 to 13.

Erm ....no I didn't brag ...what I actually said was:

>HD in Malamutes has reduced over the past 20 years ..average score now is 13 compared to 17

Which was in response to your statement:

>The reason people in the UK don't want to buy a pedigree mal or siberian husky is because of the appalling practice of inter-breeding in this country, leading to hip dysplasia and eye problems just to mention only two big problems with sibes

It was then pointed out to you that:

1. Mongrels get HD

and also

2. Sibes have an average HD score of 7

Wolves and dogs are most certainly NOT herbivores, I suggest you look the word up. If anything they are omnivores and will eat anything from meat through eggs and fish and vegetable matter IF it is pulped for them to be able to digest. A lot of people on here BARF their dogs, myself included

So then, in summation, based on ONE bad experience with a GSP and comments from your vet, you have come to the conclusion that ALL pedigree dogs are riddled with HD and other genetic problems and not worth anything?

:p :p :p

<Wolves and therefore dogs are not carnivores, they are herbivores, and it is not sufficient to give just meat and bones,> Just thinking that must be why my dogs love to munch on grass

"Animals that eat only plants are called herbivores. Deer, grasshoppers and rabbits are all herbivores. There are lots of different plants and lots of different herbivores. Some herbivores eat only part of a plant"

<ALL german shepherds have far more than 1% wolf in them> Oh yes ? & who did the breedings that brought the wolf blood into the GSD within the last 100 or so years ? You obviously must know so please do tell which of the lines from Horand(the SV 1 dog)has had wolf introduced

Oops!  Shoot me dead!  I meant to say omnivore - got carried away there!  Of course wolves are omnivores, they are very definitely not the carnivores we think they are.  It is absolutely vital that they eat vegetables - a bit like us really I suppose.

Still waiting for your information about the bloodlines from Horand that have had wolves introduced or is that something your vet told you as well ?

Sorry for the delay - got side tracked by stories about randy Beardies (dogs, not humans!).

Don't know, is the answer - my husband, who is a medical scientist with an honours degree in zoology, mammalian physiology, and human physiology, did literally years of research on all the "wolf" breeds so that when and if the dreadful time came that we would find ourselves in court defending our boy, we would have some ammo to protect him with.

I can ask him and let you know.  He's a clever clogs, and half the time I don't understand a blooming word he's saying, but I'll try.  He's at the pub at the moment, minus Mr Wolf.  He's lying under my feet rolling his eyes 'cos he knows he's the subject to a Discussion!

Actually no mention was made that the GSP had any problems, jsut the fact that the poster was appallled about the Sire being several times in the pedigree of the bitch.

As the other thread was locked I would like to just answer N. as to why the primitive traits have been muted or bred out deliberatly and for good reason in the domestic dog and reintroducing them by direct crossing to wolves is a mistake.

Over thousands of years man has adapted the dog to his purpose, that is what a dog is a man made alteration.  A wolf would not be happy living the kind of life a dog has happily adapted to, it would be far to restrictive to it's nature, tatamount to cruelty.  Since the Wolf ancestor was domesticated and the dog created mans lifestyle and environment have changed even more, and dog has continued to adapt to the roles man has had for him. 

So yes the toy breeds are far removed from the wild ancestors and are not my cup of tea (I also prefer the more natural form as you can see from my chosen breed), but are perfectly adapted for a mainly sedentary lifestyle as companions.

My own dogs are a better size than their ancestor so I can manage to take 6 for a walk together without a problem (mind you the fact there are five generatiosn with sensible older ones does help).

I also like the fact that with a purebred I know what I am likely to get in terms of form, drives and quite a few mental traits.  you canot get this from a cross of two very different types or species as you do not know which parent the pups will take after.

Your dog is lovely, but he could easily be very nervous, intolerant of dogs outside his pack, totally unreliable off lead (though I am suprised that a sibe coss wolf could be unlike either parent) and run off and kill livestock and all manner of other problems making him unsuitable to a domestic environment.

>Inbreeding DOES cause problems.

Wrong! Common novice mistake! All it can do is highlight problems which already exist.

Right!  Inbreeding is WRONG!  Inbreeding causes genetic faults.  Breeding with a dog who you know to have a genetic fault (and I don't mean the sort of trivial fault like the poor creature has a gay tail, or brown spots instead of black spot, I mean something serious like only one testicle) then of course that is appalling.  But to in breed is BAD BAD BAD.  How else do you explain the 2000+ genetic diseases that exist in pedigree dogs?

That's less than the number of genetic diseases that exist in Man. Perhaps we ought to be more careful who we breed with. ;)
:)

So you're saying it's OK then that dog breeds have over 2000 genetic diseases?  Caused by man, of course.

I don't know whether you are right or not about genetic diseases in man, but that's a different story.  We are talking here about dogs - genetically engineered by man to create the abortion at the top of this page here - the pekinese.  How we could take the wolf and create something that has appalling eye problems, can hardly breathe, has such short legs that it can't run properly - do you want me to go on?

>So you're saying it's OK then that dog breeds have over 2000 genetic diseases?

No, it's a shame, but it's better than Man's total that's come about through random breeding? What's your hipscore?

>Caused by man, of course.

Man doesn't cause diseases. Nature does that.
:)

No idea!  But I'm suffering from a broken back in two places at the moment which is making me rather bad tempered.  This is the first time I have come on this site, and I have to say I am really enjoying the lively debate here.  However, I also have to say I have tried to lighten up with a few jokes, because it was getting a bit heavy, all my own making I know, but nonetheless I thought it was time for a group hug.  I started it all off by being a tad controversial, but come on guys and gals lighten up a bit!  If I can smile with my worries, I'm sure you can.  We can have a good debate without getting nasty.

I am entitled to my opinion.  I don't have to back up everything I say with scientific facts.  I leave that to hubby.  I can read, I can judge and come to intelligent conclusions.  Methinks the breeders do protest too much!  I seem to have hit a raw nerve here.  If I'm not welcome, I'll go.

> I am entitled to my opinion.  I don't have to back up everything I say with scientific facts. 

Which means what you are saying is unsubstantiated and is merely your opinion.

> I can read, I can judge and come to intelligent conclusions. 

I have no doubt you can which is why I am patiently waiting for a response as to where you are getting you information from :)

Actually true mono dogs can reproduce as well as an entire dog/wolf  the actual problem is with entire dogs that have retained testicles that go cancerous. True monos only have one testicle not one descended & one retained

Mono dogs should not be allowed to reproduce, unless the testicle was lost in an accident (ouch!) or had to be removed for non-cancerous reason.  I know they can reproduce, but they very definitely should not be allowed to.  I understand that a mono dog with a retained testicle IS dangerous for reasons of cancer, and the retained testicle should be removed.  Again, it is very inadvisable to reproduce from a dog with a retained testicle.  Am I right in saying that most breed standards say that a dog unless castrated must have 2 descended testicles?  That is one breed standard that I very definitely agree with if i am correct.

True monochids dogs do NOT have a retained testicle they are born with only one Do get your facts straight ! The X chromosome that carries the gene for male sexual characteristics comes from the mother of a dog

There are several reasons for a dog to retain a testicle & one is over examination by the owner of a puppy as up to a certain age young males can withdraw the testicles from the scrotum for protection(an automatic response)so a dog may have a retained testicle due to outside influences

I do suggest you do some serious reading about this before launching into posts

I'm sorry, but I've really had enough.  You ought to lighten up.  There is no need for you to savage me.  If you can't debate nicely, then don't bother.

Oh hang on a minute Nikki, you didn't just start a debate, you slated Malamutes , Sibes and all pedigree dogs!!

You have consistantly stated incorrect *facts* and don't like to be corrected.

Now I am happy to start over with a group hug if necessary, but don't make out that *we* are the horrible ones ;)

Oh I am so sorry perhaps one should agree with want you say then you will be happy & people reading the thread will think that what you have written re GSDs & Monochids is totally correct

All I asked for was your information on the bloodlines from Horand(SV1)that have wolf introduced(as you wrote that it had) & to correct your misuse of the term Monochid when applied to dogs with a retained testicle when in fact Monochid dogs are born with one testicle(a condition they inherit from their mother & not their father)

<<Inbreeding is WRONG!  Inbreeding causes genetic faults. >>

But what happens in a wolf pack???

Margot

Just thinking that myself Margot

Anne

Inbreeding causes genetic faults.
It does no such thing!!  It amplifies any faults that are already there.

LOL Facts before fiction ;)

HD is Malamutes has reduced over the past 20 years ..average score now is 13 compared to 17. Eye problems in Sibes and Mals only occur when unscrupulous breeders don't remove affected stock from their breeding plans.

You say that your dog is a mongrel and yet, in another thread you say he was bred to a Utonagan bitch and the pups were sold as Utonagans ....

Utonagans do not look like wolves any more than malamutes and Sibes do , they all look like dogs.

I assume that you do have the relevant certificates for keeping a 75% wolf?

Not sure the point you are making here.  Our boy is not a utonagan, he is a husky crossed timber wolf.  He was mated with a Utonagan (or Northern Inuit as they were called then) bitch, and the girl who owned the bitch sold the pups as Utonagans because she was hardly likely to say what they really were - which is ridiculous when you think that ALL german shepherds have far more than 1% wolf in them - DEFRA say that any dog with more than 1% wolf in them means you have to have a licence for them and they have to be kept in a special compound, etc. etc.  This would be great for all GSD breeders wouldn't it!

The idea of the Utonagan (and the Northern Inuit) was to breed a dog with a wolfey look, not to breed wolf crosses, which is entirely different.  I have never met one that didn't closely resemble a wolf - they are not wolves of course, they are dogs (although genetically there is no difference between a dog and a wolf of course) - so I don't know which ones you have seen.  Don't get me wrong - I think mals and huskies are absolutely gorgeous, I love them to bits.  They are beautiful animals - but they have genetic diseases caused by interbreeding.  They need a good injection of wolf blood to put the breeds back on their feet again.

The reason that the utonagan "breed" is getting more popular is because people do not want to go out and buy a husky or a mal, only to find that the poor thing is crippled with hip dysplasia or wracked with eye problems.  I don't know whether utonagans are becoming inter-bred, I hope not, but all I know is that my boy is the healthiest and most beautiful dog that I have ever owned.  I care not a jot what he is quite frankly - I love him to bits and so do literally hundreds of other people who we have met and made friends with over the years through him.  I truly believe him to be what we were told he was; I am not saying how I know, or why; maybe we are wrong.? Who cares?  I don't feel ripped off - he cost me £500 and to my mind he is worth every penny, whatever he is.

> The reason people in the UK don't want to buy a pedigree mal or siberian husky is because of the appalling practice of inter-breeding in this country, leading to hip dysplasia and eye problems just to mention only two big problems with sibes.

I think you will find that both the BMS and the Median for Sibes is 7. There are only 3 breeds with a lower score in the KC records (for breeds which have had more than 10 dogs tested). I certainly don't consider this score to indicate that Sibes have a big problem with HD. You may wish to check the facts before making unsubstantiated claims ;)

I'm not making unsubstantiated claims at all.  I am repeating what my vet told me.  If there are only 3 other breeds with a hip score in single figures, that is precisely proving my point - that most if not all breeds of dogs in the country are interbred.  It is not natural.  When humans interbreed, we get big problems.  We would frown upon, indeed it may even be illegal, for cousins to marry.  It would certainly be very undesirable for them to have children.  In the past, this frequently happened, particularly amongst our aristocracy and royalty, leading to problems with conceiving and problems with sickly children dying young (setting aside lack of hygiene etc.).  Why we as a species should be so arrogant as to think that it is OK to interbreed man's best friend, I shall never know.

Sibes DO have a big problem as a breed with dysplasia, along with GSD's and, I'm told by my shooting friend, labradors.  I just think this is appalling.  I adore dogs - all dogs - and it just breaks my heart to think what we are doing to our Best Friends.  I'm not getting at you per se, I am sure you are a very responsible breeder, but you must be able to see where I am coming from and why I have chosen to take the rather unorthodox route that I did take to get my boy.  It actually took me 5 years, so you will see how dedicated and determined I was!

Well one of my vets told me that ALL Beardies were vicious & another that one of my BC's had shocking HD

Oddly enough 99 % of Beardies have excellent temperaments & my BC had a hip score of 3:3=6 hardly severe HD

So who knew better ?

How many Utonagan's have been hipscored then?  My breed when they came in said that there was no HD as they are quite a ferrel breed, but although we haven't got a massive problem it is definitely there.  Until all dogs are tested in all breeds then I don't think that anyone can call any breed.  Would love to see what this breeds scores are once they are scored.

Couldn't agree more.  I am going to get my boy hip scored before he mates again.  If it is high - more than 7 - I definitely would not breed from him.

A bit late if he has already been bred from, responsible stud dog owners do the scoring before passing on their dogs genes

Good point - to which I do accede.  I know you cannot tell HD just by looking, but if my boy has it I will eat my hat.  He comes from stock (on the husky side) whose scores were apparently low - can't remember from memory, but I can look them up; he leaps through the rape like a kangaroo - clears the top of the rape, a jump of some 6-8 feet; he lies like a frog on the cool paving stones with his rear legs wide apart (we think presumably to keep his testicles at a comfortable temperature, but we're not sure!), you can grab his rear legs in horse play and fight with him and generally rough house without any sign of discomfort on his part - and he is nearly 8 years old, so one would think if there was a problem with the hips he would say "ouch"!  I bow to your expertise on this point, but I would think he would not be able to run like the wind, turn on a sixpence, still be able to catch rabbits both young and adult, plus do all the above if his hips were dodgy, do you?  In addition, he loves to dance on his back legs and try and dig his dew claws into your arms - ho ho - he thinks it's hilarious, but actually its very painful!

What do you think?

I lost my last BC last year, he could clear a six foot fence, do agility, work sheep 24/7 & outrun 99 % of dogs he has a hip score of 34:34=68 severe HD & the vet you x rayed him could not believe it, he naver had arthritis either as many people predict with should a high score He was 12 1/2 when he died