I hope someone here can help me. I have a Lhasa that is 6 1/2 years old. I have him groomed 3-4 times each year. 99% of the time after he has been groomed and "expressed" he shakes a little and is resistant to go for our routine walks, but this behavior usually passes within 3-4 days. This time is different. I had him groomed almost 2 weeks ago. For the first 5 or so days, I couln't get him out from his spot- (under the bed) to go out and didn't even attempt to walk. When he was out and laying around, he snaps at me and has bitten me (hard) 3 times (broke the skin), whenever I try to put his collar on. I don't know if he is hurting or what. I have only been able to walk him once in 2 weeks. He usually goes out 3 times a day, but now I am lucky to get him out twice. My vet has been little to no help and just wants him brought in for test. The Dr did give me a # for an animal behavior specialist, but I really can't afford hundreds of dollars to have him analyzed. Please respone with any help/suggestions. This has been very upsetting to me and I'm nearing the end of my patience as you can imagine.
Thanks!

It sounds as though something at the groomer scares or hurts him. Did you stay with him or leave him? Have you asked them if he was upset by anything?

I left him (which I always do). The Vet told me she didnt see anything in his file (like any problems while grooming, but that doesnt surprise me)
Is this going to get better? He is still shaking a little. He also has been laying with me moreso than usual-

Is he show-groomed or pet-clipped? I'm no expert, but it sounds as though he's very scared of being at the groomers for some reason. What condition is his coat in when he goes - I mean, does it take a long time, or is it a quick tidy-up?

He is pet clipped-he is usually mated up and probably is a little harder to groom. He also went twice in 2 weeks which is not normal-but the week before he was bathed and flea dipped. (which he's never had fleas until the past month). Do you think he is aggressive because he thinks I am going to load him in the car to go to the vet? He rides with me 2-3 times a month and always seems excited about going to the vet (he knows when he's going and is excited to be there). Thanks for al your help~!

Reading your post the first thought i had was that the groomer was either very rough and scared him or that being expressed is causing pain. I can never understand why groomers do this but i dont' belong to the show world. If a dog has a problem fair enough, but if a dog is continually expressed surely it must get very sore?
That alone is quite enough to upset a dog, cause behavioural problems and cause a dog to lose trust in those handling him.

I am a little concerned you have titled the post "dominance" and aggression. The dog isn't being dominant, he is trying to tellyou something.

Best wishes
Lindsay
x

Lindsey
whats this got to do with 'the show world' as you put it??? This dog is a pet who is being clipped because he is matted ....not prepared for the ring.
Archer

My view of the show world is often that the dogs feelings often matter little compared to that CC. Most dogs may take well to being papered, but some do not, and as soon as they express their discomfort, they are muzzled and manhandled to enable the groomer to do what they feel they have to.........

This is nothing whatsoever to do with showing, digger! It's routine dog health-care, as important as cleaning their teeth. But there are people who don't check their dog's teeth are clean either.
:)

I think you should do some research before making such statements Digger!!! I own 3 showdogs who are treated first and foremost as pets.Yes they are groomed but since they have been groomed since they were babies and are groomed regularly theyare more than used to it and becasue its done regularly its a painfree process since they are not allowed to get knotted! Maybe we should be like some of the 'pet' owners I see....where the dogs never see a brush and the coat becomes so matted it turns into a knotted mess?
Archer

Well said Archer ;)

Grooming parlours are IME full to bursting point with "pet" dogs that owners have never attempted to keep in good coat condition themselves and so eventually the poor professional groomer has a first time visit from a filthy, stinking, matted hairball with talon like nails etc   With luck their owners may bring them back regularly enough to maintain their newly found comfort but often not - it's a case of starting all over again :(

"Show dogs" on the other hand are very much by and large "pets first" but their owners keep them as clean and tidy as they would their kids.  Even cleaner if the kids are dreaded Goths, Punks or Grungees :D

Teri ;) 

It makes me soooo angry...the amount of people who have 'much loved' pets...and then over feed them so they're fat,don't walk them so they have long nails and never groom them so they're coats a mess!!! Not what I call love!!
Archer
And I don't mean all pet owners...cos I'm one despite having show dogs!

My Briard is "only" a pet but he is groomed professionally, once every 3 months, mainly so my groomer can bath him, she has much bigger facilities/dryer than me.

She always says to me that he is in better condition than a lot of show Briards and she always looks forward to doing an easy straight forward job with him. I groom him every other day, and have done from the day I got him, please don't tar all "pet" owners with the same brush Teri, some of us care about the comfort of our dogs, regardless of showing or not :) But I do understand there are many out there who are either too lazy or couldn't care less about their pets comfort to bother.

The only 'tarring' here is being done by Digger....If you read my post you would see I said 'SOME'...not all!!
Unlike Digger who seems to think anyone who shows is cruel to their dogs
Archer

And if you read my post Archer, you will see I used the word 'often'........

archer, and if you read my post you would see that I was "talking" to Teri ;)

I saw your post after I posted mine, so we must have posted at the same time as it wasn't on there before I posted :)

Sorry Teri!!

:D :D :D - you go girl :D

Teri

I've obviously missed something here between archer and Teri.........why is archer apologising to Teri?

Sending private hate mail?????  -  Only kidding, not that exciting, she just replied to your earlier post intended for me  :D

Teri ;)

Sorry, I am having a day of misunderstanding everything  ;) Must be all that grape juice I indulged in last night :D

No...my Fault....meant to say sorry Hairypooch!!!!....sorry lol

No offence intended to "pet" owners hairypooch - I've stated quite clearly that mine are pets too ;)  Obviously show dogs can't win in the condition described and despite some recent cruelty cases that spring to mind, even the retired ones are kept in good order.  I don't tar any group of people with the same brush - there are bad owners of pet, show and working dogs but the mainstream in each are good - or at least do their best to be and if not managing in certain areas seek help, all as it should be ;)

Unfortunately many of the coated breeds are sold (foolishly or negligently on the breeders part) to pet homes where adequate coat care is not going to take place - either through lack of know-how or effoprt :(  How often do you see clipped off OES, Beardies, Rough Collies and virtually every terrier breed (all given the same clip ) - ask their pet owners why they do it (and I have!) and they say they couldn't cope with the coat or the dog wouldn't let them groom it - not good enough, but then the breeder should have mentored them from scratch or not sold them such a dog

On my high (but beautifully turned out) horse now :D

Regards, Teri

Can I throw a 'cat among the pigeons' and say that some breeds have been bred to the extent that they are not really for anyone other than a fanatical groomer :) Developing a breed that requires huge amounts of grooming, makes the breed the fairly exclusive domain of those who show, have large amounts of spare time or large amounts of money :) I do not blame people who have their dog clipped in the slightest - at least it isn't getting matted and dirty and makes the dog far better IMO to live a normal life :)

Daisy

Hi Daisy,

I would agree that some of the coated breeds have far more coat now than once was the case and that needs a llot more time and effort on the part of the owner. 

I also agree that it is kinder to have the coat clipped off than leave it to matt and make the poor dog miserable.

I am however amazed why anyone attracted by the looks of a coated dog in the first place then goes on to have it sheared like a sheep :(  There are plenty of short haired breeds about!  But at the end of the day, responsible breeders of such coated breeds should be ensuring that the new owners know how much work is involved in coat care and how early on they need to start handling the puppy to make grooming easy and pleasant for owner and dog alike.  If the prospective purchasers are not prepared or capable of offering the necessary care, they should then be redirected to a more appropriate breed as a family companion ;)

Regards, Teri :)

Couldn't agree more Teri :)

There is nothing more I hate, than to see what should be gorgeous long coated breeds moth eaten and badly shorn. If you are going to shave a dog then get a short coated breed There is no excuse for not grooming a dog or getting it groomed and in some extreme cases its better that they are shaven than having to live with an uncomfortable coat that causes all kinds of skin problems.

As for owners saying that their dogs wouldn't let them groom them, then it's obvious that these people have never done it properly, or at all, from day 1 :( My breeder spent 3 hours showing me how to groom a fully grown Briard and put me onto my groomer in this neck of the woods, albeit she is only used now to bath my boy after he has rolled in unmentionables, swam in the sea and had a good brush from me before we visit :D

Exactly, Archer. Expressing anal glands is as much a part of dog maintenance as grooming, nail clipping, tooth cleaning, checking ears etc. Nothing to do with showing in particular.

I said it was my view, which indidentally HAS been researched, this isn't to say that many show dog owners do treat their dogs with respect ofcourse....

Out of interest Digger, researched by who?

Teri

Researched by me - I've seen the stress signals given off by dogs in dog shows and grooming parlours.  Ive seen the groomers manhandling and muzzling dogs who are feeling threatened and using the only way they know how to defend themselves. - I prefer to believe the evidence of my own eyes......

Show dogs rarely go to grooming parlours digger, because the end result is too important! That'll be the 'purely-pet' dogs who haven't been accustomed to grooming from an early age and only go a few times a year when their coats are in bad condition. :(

Obviously then digger, you have never visited us when we are grooming. be it for a show or for a pet owners.

Unless the dog has shown definite signs of biting, we never use a muzzle, in fact I can count on one hand the number of times this has been necessary.  Dogs are never ever manhandled, what would be the point of that, as the next time we had to groom it, it would make it far worse.

Maybe they have some particularly bad groomers in your area!!!

Dogs do have to be taught to stand still whilst being groomed, but then thats no different to any other lesson. they are rewarded when they do as they are told.

As for Anal Glands, they are done as a routine procedure only when it is obvious that they are full and need expressing.

As regards the first post, if you only take a breed like yours to the groomer 3-4 times a year then you are neglecting that dogs, you say he is full of matts, then strange that it may seem, the way to stop that happening is to use a brush and comb!!!! 

You yourself are at fault, evry time your dog goes to the groomer it is expecting to have pain from matts being either clippered or combed out, would you want to go to the hairdresser if it hurt everytime you went, of course he is upset for a few days afterwards, no groomer can be expected not to have to hurt a little getting those matts, poor little dog.  Shame on you!!!

JG is correct, show dogs are very rarely groomed by those other than their owners, handlers, breeders :)  I'd be surprised if personal research on this subject would give an exactly comprehensive picture of what goes on :rolleyes:  I've yet to see a muzzle on any dog being groomed at a dog show and I can't begin to count how many thousands that would be over the years travelling the length and breadth of the UK with my own much loved pets who happen to participate in our family hobby.

Regards, Teri ;)   

Just to make it clear, I am talking about grooming our own dogs for the showring, not other peoples although we do one or two for the ring for other people.

I'm intrigued...where and how have you researched it? Everyone I know grooms their dogs in their own home...and so do most show people.Those who use proffessional groomers...well you can hardly blame the owner if the dog is manhandled in their absence can you....so where have you seen it?
Archer

Yaaaaay folks whoa down a bit.

I've seen show dogs who love being groomed and those who  loathe it and i don't show, but have seen it just by attending shows. Digger is entitled to her opinion and all that...take it easy guys.... ;)

We don't all share the same opinions but lets respect everyone elses, eh?

Lindsay
X

What's with this post Lindsay?  Digger made a statement allegedly backed by research and has been asked about the source of that research.

I'm all for everyone being entitled to their own opinion and I don't think this thread (so far :D) requires a mediator .......

Regards, Teri ;)   

I don't know whether the poster grooms the dog in between visits, but she says the dog is only being groomed 3-4 times a year. My vet recommends dogs have their glands expressed once a month to be on the safe side, so I would expect a groomer to do this as a matter of routine.
:)

How often do you groom him yourself, in between visits to the groomers? A proper comb-through at least once a week (I feel guilty if I miss a day running a brush over my smooth-coated breed) should prevent him getting matted so the groomer will be less likely to accidentally hurt him.

He's certainly not being dominant though - it seems to me he's being aggressive because that's the only method he has at his disposal to tell you that he's afraid.

Out of interest, why do people have their dogs expressed?

I've never had any dogs glands expressed and I would have thought it was best done if the dog was having a problem rather than as a matter of course? I realise many groomers do it as part of the grooming routine.

I'm genuinely interested because I so rarely meet anyone who has it done... and have never in my years of dog owning needed to have it done...

Lindsay
x

I have a bitch who, to all appearances, developed and burst and anal gland abscess within 6 hours. There was no sign of it first thing in the morning (and in a smooth-haired breed it's easy to see!); there was a red mark by her anus during her morning walk, which by lunchtime was the size of a marble, and by the time we got to the vet at 2 pm (the first appointment) it had burst. She'd shown no signs of discomfort, no scooting, or licking or nibbling, beforehand.

I would imagine all dogs who go to groomers have it done - it's part of the process.

Hi Lindsay,

in some breeds (possibly specific lines) there may be a need to express the anal glands regularly but I've only ever had one Belgian done once (13 years at the time) - turned out to be virtually nothing there ;)  I think certain mushy diets (not fed I'm sure by the regular board posters ) may also contribute to problems but I'd be surprised too if there's an epidemic of "expressing" going on across the show word - well, certainly not in Belgians :D

Teri

Teri hi

I do hope not as i was about to post on the BSD forum "OMG should i have been expressing all these years" and maybe to follow a "confessions of a non-expresser" :D

Seriously, I know there is a problem with certain breeds (dachsunds, (sp?) etc) but I guess that must be a genetic side of things.
In my view though, wouldn't it be best to check, see if the grapey bits feel hard and only express if nature isn't able? If a dog is expressed as a matter of course, would not the body at some stage get lazy and stop doing this itself so that in the end the dog was totally relying on the owner for expression?

Lindsay
X

>In my view though, wouldn't it be best to check, see if the grapey bits feel hard and only express if nature isn't able?

But how many people do? And what if there's no apparent abnormality? And even if they do (as I did occasionally) what will they do about it - up the roughage (bones) and hope for the best (as I did)?

All I can say is that since I've been expressing Clover's glands every month she seems to have a new lease of life. She runs much more, she's playful and has regained her lost sparkle, which I'd put down to her growing up (she's 11). But apparently I was wrong.
:)

Lindsay, some dogs don't need it done, just as others don't need their nails clipped. But it's always wise to check.
:)

I think that's a fair comment, yes :)

Lindsay
X

Shan,

Why would he be afraid of the vet?? I thought he went to the groomers to be clipped? 

I apologise in advance for what I'm about to say, you are not going to like it I'm afraid, but for the sake of your dog it has to be said :(

"he is usually matted up and probably a little harder to groom"
I would say that owing to your neglect for grooming his coat    he is having a really bad time at the groomers.  Not the groomers fault, but yours.  If you think he is matted up when you take him to the groomer, then in my experience he will be just a ball of matted fur and it will be impossible to groom or clip him without causing discomfort as there is so little room to work on such a small dog with so much coat.  Please, ask the groomers to give you a lesson in grooming his coat and what to use so that he can be comfortable when they clip him, it is unfair and cruel to the dog to expect to neglect his coat for 3-4 months so that it mats up and then expect to have it put right in a few hours.  A metal comb and a brush and some regular attention with them from you  would make his life so much more enjoyable.

"He also went twice in two weeks.........the week before he was bathed and flea dipped"   
If the groomers bathed him and flea dipped him then they would have had to brush him out as much as possible as bathing an unbrushed dog will just make any matting worse.  This implies that the dog couldn't be finished in one session which implies serious matting.

If I am wrong about this then I apologise unreservedly, but somehow I don't think I am :( :( :(

(To original poster)

Hi there,

We've all gone off topic a little ;)  JeanGenie's instincts about him being hurt and/or scared by his grooming experience seem to be going on the right course to me :(  Perhaps he's been manhandled in such a way that it is still causing him some muscular pain?  I think I'd return to the vet and have him checked over just to be on the safe side.  Going to a behaviourist if this is only a recent problem and seems to be an isolated reaction (if it's specific to grooming) seems an unnecessary and inappropriate expense at the moment but investing in a regular vet appointment and thorough exam of his skin etc is not that pricey and would be IMO more worthwhile as a first port of call.

Please let us know how he progresses.

Regards, Teri :)

When I went training in a grooming parlour there wasn't a single dog that went that was a "show" dog.  I have never ever taken mine to a grooming parlour and after my experience in one I never would.   The woman who did the training used to pull the dogs round, hit them, all sorts.   Id of thought that most show people actually groomed thier dogs themselves!

Don't want to tar all groomers though.

I can't believe some of the comments made on here !  I show my dogs but first and foremost they are truly pampered pets !  You should see them now and they wouldn't be allowed in a showring, with their muddy paws etc.  Oooh, I know what I'm going to be doing tomorrow :d

You'd be surprised at how many show people cannot manage the grooming themselves.

What a dreadful trainer, but I suppose I shouldn't be surprised considering that there are good and bad trainers in everything.