Has anyone ever felt that a judge has placed a dog unfairly because a child is on the end of the lead? Just a thought since my daughter shows my boys as some of you know and just wondered....both times one of my dogs has had a RCC I was showing...but I feel the dogs show better for her??
Archer

YES!

Not so much now but when I was under 12 (and I look older then I was) I never did aswell as the dog should.  many judges had (and by sound of it still do) the "mum and dad give child crap dog to keep them quite"

I always found it was the older generation (now don't have ago at me anyone because a majority of the older generation have supported me)  Many times this ment not so high qulity was put above my bitch.  (yet I could handle and run better then many people in the breed and made my bitch look alot nicer!)

The dogs probely do show better for her, most dogs and most children compliment eachother so well, they work for eachother and devote (is that the word????) on eachother!  there are judges out there who give each dog a fair chance, not worry about the age on the end of the lead!

>devote (is that the word????) on eachother!

dote is the word you are looking for ;)

I do wonder if the judge doesnt pick out children because they dont want people to think they only picked that particular dog because there was a child on the end of the lead.  I certainly dont think children get placed higher because of their age, if anything its the opposite :)

Thats the one thankyou!!!! :D  my vocab is not the best!!!

Hi Archer,

Seems a shame if your dogs go better for your daughter than for you - by her not taking them in then under an "honest" and "knowledgable" judge they are being penalised before they start :(   On the other hand we all know that there are plenty of odd judges out there so I guess it's your call on the day as to who is most likely to get a fair crack of the whip with your boys.

Yet another downside of what is supposed to be an enjoyable hobby :rolleyes:  Why do we do it?

Regards, Teri ;)

Can't say that's our experience although it was some time ago.  I bought my daughter a 3 year old bitch for her 10th birthday.  I was told that she "would get BOB at Open Shows and get placed at Champ Shows"!  It took 2 years for Hannah to make her up - I think that a better known handler would have done it quicker! :p
Judges are human like the rest of us and have their personal predudices.  But with patience, I believe a good dog will always get there - regardless of handler, tail etc!! :)

I think that sometimes it does count against the dog if its handled by a child, shouldn't but thats human nature.

In fact I was talking to the judge who gave my daughter at 14, the first ticket with the dog she was handling.  He said it did go through his mind during the challenge, do I give it to such a youngster, and then he thought what the hell its the best dog!!!  So he did.

If the dog is good enough and the child handles well enough then I think they will conquer those prejudices, but you will always find judges that maybe haven't got the confidence to do it.

Wouldn't have thought so much nin our breed.  I rember at the first club show I attended in 1984 the Best In Show went to Ch Ravenstone Glad Tidings handled by Georgina Maun who would then have been 14.  At the time she handled for Margaret Harper quite a lot as her health and mobility are not as good as a younger pair of legs these days.

Thanks everyone,
I have only felt a couple of times that she has been knocked because of her age...once at an open show and once at a champ show.As Brainless says I think in the whole our breed judges are pretty fair and think we have less 'face judging' than in most.
I am not complaining ...my dogs have done better than I could ever have imagined!
Archer

I forgot to say that my Barbelka Calusek was shown from her debut and up to adulthood solely by my daughter.  She won BPIB awards and good class placings with her.  In short I haven't done any better with ehr since taking over, and in fact she shows better for others as she tries too hard for me, and her best result a RCC wqas achieved by a friend handling.  I wish she had maintained an interest to the time I had Jozi, as then I could perhaps have judged if a child handling was holding her back.  Unfortunately at 17 under some gentleman judges it might actually be an advantqage if I could get her to handle :D

I think most judges would not be influenced by the handler, but some witll be be it a face, pretty girl, handsome young man or child.   Most I would hope judge the dog, but competence of handling will make the odd place difference.

I think the fact that a child is regularly handling in a breed seems to get them more accepted by the judges.

What we also found was that Gemma was taken under the wing of the hierarchy, once they realised that she was serious and committed about what she was doing, and they encouraged her in everything she did.

I think you are very lucky in Elkhounds as on the  most exhibitors & breeders are very friendly & helpful Maybe it is because the breed is one of the less numerous & the breeders very conerned over not just their own dogs but the breed in general. In the more popular breeds like GSDs & Cavaliers there are those whose only interest is success in the ring & their own dogs & the welfare of the breed as a whole can go hang so they make a point of handling their own dogs so that the judges know whose dogs are whose

I when judging the breed look only at the dogs & when my first show beardie was a puppy & junior she was handle by a 12 years old who took her to BPIB many many times at championship shows under both the older breed specialists & the all rounders There was certainly no bias for or against our young handler. I very much doubt it would happen now

We are blessed in this country with some very good young handlers who handle a wide range of dogs, the young handler who handled my beardie also handled my GSD boy with a good degree of success under german judges but rarely under english ones(& I mean nationalities not breed type !)

My friends young daughter is a good Border Terrier handler & has done a nice bit of winning this year at Ch Shows when her mum couldn't get time off work, she has the dogs free standing which her mum has to top n tail !

I do like to see young handlers dressed smartly but not overdone & sorry some of the more flashy handlers actually detract from the dogs.

It is also nice to see an upswing in young obedience handlers handling dogs they have trained themselves rather then well trained dogs their parents have done all the work with, there is a young lady who has taken her BC from prebeginners to C only in the last 3/4 years & he is not an easy dog either despite being a BC !

Yes...I think you're right we are very lucky in elkhounds.
I agree with you on the overdressed youngsters....my daughter just wears smart black trousers and a blue jacket...we're not a breed where the handlers are over dressed anyway.
Kimmi has had a huge amount of support from people in the breed and they always compliment her on her handling and behaviour.I am very proud of her and love to see her in the ring with the boys....think it looks so much better than a lump like me running round the ring
Archer

My friemds daughter handles her whippet & is always neatly turned out but has become quite disheartened with some of the younsters who are OTT, so much so she would rather come & help out behind the scenes(which is great for us),  she also doesn't like beating some of the younger children as she is nearer the older end, we do have one young whippet handler at some of our local shows who throws a wobbler if she doesn't win, she laos handles another breed & was in a puppy class with me & my youngest dog, she was quite deliberating letting her puppy jump on mine I smiled sweetly & quietly said "Be very careful *!*!* you are playing with adults now" to which she stuck her tongue out at me ! Not that I would play unfair but shall I say she got nothing in the class as her puppy decided that my biat was better than being held in a show stance funny how a cavalier's tail can distract a puppy !& my boy won even the judge asked me why she was trying to distract my puppy ! & I saw the stern judge having a word with her afterwards, the young lady looked very embarassed. Had to laugh in the BPIS I was beaten by another young handler who handlered her dog beutifully & who had tears of joy in her eyes as she afterwards told me she was solely responsible for her dog, training etc & that she had never even won a class before ! She has done quite well since then !

Moonmaiden, what would you call OTT dress then in the ring?  I just only see bad dress with jeans, jumper and TRAINERS (pet hate!)

A young boy wearing a PINK suit with a very frilly shirt the cuffs of which looked like the interior design bloke off the TV with the double barrelled name  that draped over his dog as he was stacking it & the girl I mentioned before wearing a floor length bridesmaid type dress with masses of frills

Basically anything that distracts your eye from the dog LOL I can think of a few adults that used to dress like that except they have very low necklines !

Must say I have never seen any handlers dressed like that!!! (luckily for them I think!)

Though one day a young girl from our ringcraft was enterd in handling but didn't think she would be handling so didn't take her jacket.  it ended up that I gave her my older aussie bitch, but she was worried because she didn't have her jacket (bless, wel always tell them to look smart) and a walker by said "oh you don't need a jacket, with me there standing in my nice suit!

I agree with low tops.  Theres one girl, who has numerous breeds.  At the last show I saw her she was handling a whippit she "pranced" with, low cut top, big boobs, can't understand why, the judge was female!!!!!!

Whats happend to the suits with high neck t-shirts that I have to wear!!!! :D (I know many people still do!) (saying that I am a culprit of hipsters etc.......we won't go there!

LOLOL I have to laugh at some of the Cavalier "Ladies"of shall we say mature years one wearing a blue denim suit a size too small & she looked awful in the group, another wearing floor length black skirts with a split up the side revealing legs that are better not seen in public & another owner of a top kennels wearing a trouser suit better suited to a junior handler in style & size !. Must say the gents are usually quite nicely dressed in jacket & trousers shirt & tie

Me ? I wear black velour trousers & a maroon jacket with a top that is multi coloured but that tones with the jacket, even my bait bag is colour co ordinated ! & on my feet some simple black shoes ! All I need to top it off is a posh hat(jkg)I just have my hair tied back

my hair always used to be teid back...untill....It became too short!!! :D

I must admit I have either black, sand and pink shoes, all comfortable to run a setter in!  I refuse bait bags (hate them) so all my suit jackets have pockets!  I don't stick to one colour suit, I have as many as I can, black compliment the red and whites, grey and liac compliment all the aussies we have.  chocolate compliments my black tris.  I have a mixture of skirts (knee lengh) and trousers (went to skirts when couldn't find 33" trousers easily!

And my bargin suit, the gray one, cost £9! how good was that?  you don't have to go out and buy expensive suits, go to primark in the sales and pick one up for £9! I was really chuffed!

Talking of hair, a young lady we take to shows and does JH with our dogs I had a long debate with her, now every morning before a show I do her hair with her mumbling "can't believe I let you do this!" She either had her hair up or didn't come to the show!

LOL My bait bag is used for storing my combs & mouse etc & is a simple bag on a long strap I don't do bum bags for bait ! & it's the run on from the handbags the Cavalier ladies used to carry years back ;)

Yeah but try buying trousers that aren't hipsters, all the nice ones are, and at my age I don't think the style flattering, but still want nice trousers that don't cost the earth.

At least you do't have to bend down & pick up your dog B that is definitely not something to do in hipsters & a skinny top !

Brainless, thats my problem.  I find lovely suits in New look and MK one for example, where its fashion, so everything is hipsters, thats why I wear them in the ring.  I do have two pairs of trousers that arn't, Can't remember their price, but with a jacket a skirt, all 3 items came to £110!  It was only because mum said she wanted me wearing higher trousers, she let herself in for it!!!

When my daughter was JH-ing, she had 2 washable "old fogie" suits from Debenhams!!  Not cool at all, classic jacket and trousers, but they looked smart, were very functional and were washed when necessary.  They weren't too expensive.
She would wear her fashionable clothes all day, and change into the suit for the ring.  It taught her that there was a time and place for everything too!! :)

The worst I ever saw and it wasn't from a JH was when I was sat ringside spectating.
Woman stacking her dog and you could see her thong as that was higher than her trousers!!
So made a mental note to myself never wear a thong and always check and make sure in
the mirror that no one can see your knickers over your trousers :D

I always tend to wear trousers and jackets, try and find colour that compliments my dogs
or one that the dog doesn't blend into. My fav colour is purple followed by a burgundy red
or grey, that way my brindle boxers outline can always be seen :)
I must admit I'm naughty and do wear trainers for comfort and for being able to run on sports
centre floors - but I do make sure that they are clean.
I too like a bargain and can often be found at Primark/New Look/Matalan looking for the jackets
etc for my show outfits - Infact I have more show outfits than work outfits LOL and I work in an office.

boxercrazy, find the right shoes and their just as comfy, if not more so the trainers and with good grip.  My fave pair for comfortability are M&S footglove.  The grip is great, their soft, flexible, they feel more like slippers, and I love them to bits.  The price wasn't too bad at £30, ok so you can find cheeper but these give excellent value for money, I wouldn't be without mine and the fight to be more comfy then my old, done alot of steps all time fave trainers!!!!

I found comfy well treaded shoes that I can machine wash They are not the height of fashion but always look clean, needing shoes with a good tread goes back to my GSD showing days, half an hours gaiting in each of the post grad, limit & open classes means you have not only to be fit but also have comfy shoes

Well have to go and look in M&S now :)
I've been looking for a new pair of boots and can't find any I like.
I have the old faithful pair of wrangler ankle boots that have been re heeled and soled
I can't remember how many times now & they are probably over 10 years old 
I wanted another pair that's just as comfortable as them and some new practical
flat shoes that are also comfy to wear and who knows perhaps these can also double
as my showing shoes too, who knows if they are really comfortabe may even wear em at Crufts
how do yours do on the green carpet?? :D

Thanks for the pointer re M&S never looked at their footwear before! :)

Mine are perfect on the crufts green carpet! (and sure they will be perfect in the main ring....like I'll ever get there!), grass, sports halls, concreat, mud, mine have been though almost anything and are still with me.  One thing to check, is bend the shoe in half!  if it bends then they will be great for running!  run up and down the store afew times to check they are ok...I was only in there yesterday because I need a new black pair of shoes, unfortantly our local one is small....So I have been promised a trip to colney heath (sp?)

Mum also buys alot of her boots from M&S, not sutible for showing though in her 20 inch heels :D but they must be comfortable as she doesn't complain about them!!!

Great thanks
:D I don't wear huge heels, my boots heels are probably no more than 2inches high max.
I like the square heels not these thin stiletto type heels. I'd topple over as I'm not a high heel
person much prefer flat shoes :)

We've got a big one in Reading so I'll have a look in there tomorrow and see if I can spot
any bargains :D

The important thing to remember is that the handler (in breed classes) should be invisible. It's the dog that matters.

JG, this should also apply in junior handling!!!!  the handler should fade into the background, giving the message to the judge "look at my wonderful dog" at all times!

Unfortunately there are some children in the ring who prance round like something out of river dance! The 'custumes' aren't much less colourful either.
The competition should be judged on the child who handles the dog to the best standard.Unfortunately the child who 'blends into the background' and makes the dog the most important thing is sometimes overlooked for some of the more 'colourful' ones JMHO
Archer

This is very true archer!  But luckily more judges are judging the handler who "shows the dog it its best advantage, hiding faults etc, while still being able to keep the golden rule, do nice pattern work, and be sypathetic to dog and to other exhibitors!"

One judge, has judged me twice, once in juniors, and then again in adults.  Both times my dog played up (can forgive 19 month mal, but not 6 year old setter!) both times she commented to me that she doesn't mark handlers down for having a mis behaving dog, aslong as they handle it well!  After a chat found out that this judge and myself have very similar veiws on judging, although she dissapointed me in judging one class at the last show, I agree with what she looks for!

On the other hand some handlers win when they are not considerate to their robotic dog, especially when they have it strung up!  If anyone read the Junior handling critique from witney DCS last year then you will know my feelings on this!  Also for anyone who doesn't like over handling etc, look out for junior handling chesham critque, makes very intresting read!

In one handling class, I was asked for a triangle, in a sports hall, so I followed the 3 mats round, I was unplaced, asked the judge after and was told "you should go from the judges feet, the mats where not where my feet where pointing" so I replied "so you want me to risk my dogs legs by running a dog (that isn't mine) on a slipery floor, I'm not taking this dog back to its owner with a broken leg"  The reply fromt he judge..."walk your dog on the floor, im looking at patterns, not speed!"  I walked away, dad didn't bother with the adult handling!

Luckily a show after that I went BJH for using the mats! phew not all judges are bad!

Right thats my ramble! I have gone on about nothing much have I!

but archer..your HO is also mine! :)

OTT dress in the ring? Outfits which wouldn't be out of place at a film premiere! It's not only children, there are adults just as bad (I've seen one woman who wears what appears to be a majorette's uniform! Everybody sniggers!). Ideally the handler should be neat and tidy and invisible!
:)

You just put 10 years on our Georgie, chuck :-)
Back in the 80s, my sister Debi handled our Azzi to most of her 8 CCs and 10 RCCS. She was a little bit older, in her mid-teens, but I guess you would still class her as a child. She handled Azzi to her third ticket at Blackpool in 1982, a month after her fifteenth birthday. I think most people in our breed were pleased for her. That's elkhound people for you. She won under both breed specialists and allrounders. It really shouldn't matter a bit how old the handler is - the judge should be looking at the dog.

Oh lord and it would make GT and my Elka very old girls indeed, nearly 23 years old.  Sorry I did mean 1994 not 84 :D  Glad Georgie doesn't read this forum :D

Thanks again...nice to hear from you Ness!! I'll be honest up until recently it never crossed my mind...I had felt totally happy with her placings.However at 2 recent shows I have felt(and have had fellow exhibitors comment aloud aswell) that she was placed unfairly.
I have always found the elkie people to be fantastic with my daughter and often find she has wondered off to bend other exhibitors ears .Before now I have found her several times sat in a bench(with the owners permission of course) cuddling other elkhounds....one of them being Anton.
Maybe I should just put it down to judges preference since it seems that children have been welcome in the elkie ring for a good while!!
Nikki 

I have to say my 13 year old daughter has had some success and age has not gone against her.

No - Although sometimes at exemption (companion) dogs shows sometimes the
JH class can be given to the youngest in the class for 'cute' factor.

When I started handling at 18yo (I started late as I never knew about showing dogs
and my then boyfriends mum bred Boxers and her next door neighbours showed I handled
a b/w bitch for her and won the first rosette and the rest his history :D )
I did once have an adult handler of another Boxer grab my placing in an AV working class.
That happened through my own inexperience of showing and not having the confidence.
I wouldn't let that happen now though and yes there are some sneaky shananingins that do
go on in some classes with handlers trying to distract others dogs etc.

I think there are some fantastic JH with such natural ability and dogs seem to pull out all
the stops for them. To me this is a joy to watch.
What I hate to see are the pushy parents who get really bolshy and huff and puff especially when 'junior' doesn't do as well as they think he/she should.
I know there have been a few handlers that prefer showing in the breed classes rather than the
JH as it's not so 'catty'. Which surely is a shame.
No I'm all in favour of junior handlers that want to show in breed classes etc and if they've got the best dogs
in the class that day then of course they should win. I also believe that they should be encouraged afterall
one day they will be the 'experienced' breed person.

HHmm some interesting replies, Daniel has been showing since he was 6, he is now 11, He has won CCs RCCs, many BOBs and BIS at open show level. I have felt on a few occasions, the judges were unsure, and put him down the line.........This is in Breed classes, He does prefer to show in Breed, rather than JH or YKC.

Daniel wears a suit for Championship shows, (Must say, it is harder to find suitable clothes for Boys) and waistcoat, smart shirt and trousers, for JH, open shows. Suit for Richmond and Finals. He does wear smart trainers, as running with a GSD in shoes, doesnt quite go together.

Daniel, has a rapport with the dogs he shows, as he is fully involved in the day to day looking after of the dogs, feeding, cleaning, grooming, exercising and training, he will be witness to his first whelping in a couple of weeks, as a progression in learning.

Charm

No what you mean about suits for boys, while I was picking up suits everywhere my brother wasn't, now is even worse, his too big for childrens, too small for adults!  He might grow one day!!!!

Just out of intrest, why dress down for open and where the full suit for champ?  Can understand why Daniel needs the trainers although it still winds me up (its that much of a pet hate) I tend to try and forgive GSD handlers for safety! and boys shoes don't always have grips like ladies do!

Many juniors do have a rapour with their dog, as can more pick up a dog and go in the ring and make it seem like they have known eachother for years!  However I do find it upsetting when juniors try and take in strange dogs and fail!

My oldest cavalier adores chidren & makes a good junior handler dog he never pulls to get out of the ring & if you get the speed to move him at right & get the free standing at the end right he usually does well . When I showed beardies a friends children would take them in as their own dogs were a bit naughty with them, they used to draw straws(if we didn't have to pre enter them)to see who took in whom I do think they made a better job than me sometimes(well most of the time to be honest)They always took the dogs in at Crufts as a treat(or punishment if they got the naughtiest one ! ;) )

When my oldest daughter was in her teens she had the worlds most difficult Munster to show. She showed her to her best and did a lot of winning. I am now regularly being beaten by a 6 year old girl (whose mum is a regular on this board :D ) who handles a very big dog that she can only just see over the head of. There are days when she does really well, and the dog is placed high, and other days when the rapport just doesn't seem to be there. I think it depends on the judge, and how well the child is handling the dog. Whether the dog is good, bad or indifferent, if the child can handle it well enough to show off it's good points then I think they can and should do well. After all, isn't that what we all try to do? Hide the bad points, and show off the good? ;)