I was just having a think about dogs today compared to dogs in the wild, wolves, african wild dogs, dingo's etc.

Today there are so many different feeds on the market, large breed dogs, giant breeds, small breeds, even food for individual breeds!! (?)
Dogs in the wild get raw food, it suits them all, large and small, puppy and adult.
Im wonder why there was a need to create so many different feeds for domestic dogs!? 

Also exercise wise, puppies and young adult wild dogs dont have their exercise restricted, some puppies need in the wild need to be on the move all the time, purely to survive (predators etc) 
You dont ever or hardley see any bone problems in wild dogs, no hip problems, why is this, when we need to be so careful with domestic dogs!?

Is it down to food? or what people have done , in terms of breeding? 

I might be going off on one here, but i was just thinking ! :P
I do have a point somewhere, not sure where though ;)

be interesting to hear others opinions on this...........

I think the food for individual breeds thing is a major rip-off but that's just me.  My vet reckons that the graduate-type foods for large/giant breeds are useful because the protein levels are low (although he's also explained that it's overall calories that need to be limited in fast-growing puppies) but because smaller breeds mature faster, graduate feeds for these dogs aren't really necessary.   

In regards to exercise, there's no reason puppies of any breed can't be on the move all the time, they should be, more harm is done cooping puppies up than from allowing them to amble around all day and this is probably the level of exercise that a young wild dog would undertake - a bit of playing, wrestling, chewing, wandering, then sleeping.  Don't forget that many species have den sites where the pups are kept though.  I was worried about exercise with my rottie puppy but have been assured by more than one vet that being on the move is a good thing and I've been encouraged to keep him active - it's strenous, repetitive exercise that harms them and I would imagine wild puppies don't participate in more intense activity such as hunting until they're physically mature.  I don't think hip problems have anything to do with food - it's down to breeding from stock with poor hips over time.  I guess if a wild dog did get joint problems, it would die off at some point and probably not contribute to the breeding programme...

The thing is Gemsdogs wild dogs don't live into their old age like we require ours to!! How do you know theres no hip problems etc...these dogs would just die...cos we don't see them doesn't mean they don't exist
Archer

Archer, hip problems don't just manifest themselves in old age - dogs as young as 9 months have to be destroyed because their hips are so badly formed...  Wolves/wild dogs can be hip scored in just the same way as domestic dogs and I believe there have been studies looking at this but no hip dysplasia was found - although I can't quote references off the top of my head :)

I would expect there to at least be some Hip dysplasia in wolves, but would expect it to be small simply because in the wild any pup that was showing signs would not live pas puppyhood, and certyainly would not be able to pass on it's bad genes.

Wild Rabbits in the main are Agouti in colour, next mutation is black.  Once domesticated breeding just among the wild stock will very quickly give rise to the colours that we get in the domestic bunny.  Lots more generations and we get the digfferentiation in size etc.  So the genes for anything are there or will occur as a mut6ation given enough time.

The domestic dog is lucky/unlucky enough to have owners and breeders who cannot be as ruthless or testing in the anmimals they select for breeding.  Sadly in some cases in those like puppy farmers/pet breeders who are uncaring or ignorant they don't do any selection at all!!!

Nutrition obviously will play a part.  The greyhound bred for racing is almost entirely selected on performance, and it has the lowest rate of D in any breed.

This is why the control schemes for health are so important.  We cannot hope to or even want to mimic natural selection, so we have a duty to do what is humanly/humanely possible in our breeding efforts.

Human beings have far more genetic disease that our pedigree dogs, even though there is no planned breeding and reproduction is random among largely unrelated individuals.

I would be interested in any references, as I know that teeth faults such as missing premolars are quite often found among wild canids.

Im sure there are a few problems that do crop up, theres bound to be, but at the end of the day only the strongest survive, weak , deformed, crippled wild dogs just wouldnt survive

Rudi
I am aware of that but in the wild young dogs with HD would either cope or die obviously
Archer

I do believe and ill probably be shot , but i believe HD is a cause of people, wild dogs from what ive read arent affected by it.. I guess it is seen in some, but then as has been said that individual would not pass on the genes. so it would not be a problem for the population of wild dogs

We never used to have all these foods. At the time of my first dog, during the time of food rationing following the second world war dogs, by and large, got a little of what we had. He was a Wire Haired Terrier cross lived to the ripe old age of 16. Tinned dog food was the next. Several makes but none of this Puppy, Junior, Adult and Senior stuff. It was more a matter of "Here it is, take it or leave it." Now there is even special food supposedly designed specifically for Labradors! What rot! It's a great big con! Diet food! What's wrong with cutting down on the amount you give the dog? That's all we did in the old days! I still believe that at least some of our bone problems, OCD and possible HD are linked to the puppy foods bringing the young dogs along too fast. That's why I'm always urging people to get off or them onto adult food as soon as possible.

I was once told by a young girl at club how essential it was to feed the latest in the pet food manufacturer's art. I'm afraid I saw red and informed her that when she had seen a few dogs through from birth to death then and not before would she be able to talk with authority on the subject!

Regards, John

Thats the problem john, so many people think they are feeding the best food for their dog, just because its the latest!

I worry alot about what exactly is in these fancy dog foods!

The problem is Gemdogs that all dog breeds are man made, wild dogs are developed over time by natural selection, they are nayurally selected to live hunt and breed in that particular environment and eat whatever food is available in that environment.

All dog breeds are man made and selectively bred for conformation traits and or working abliity, sometimes this means that other aspects can be lost or diluted.  EG many giant breeds must have restricted exercise when growing, in the wild you would not get a dog naturally selected for size also if a dog in the wild had growth problems it would become the prey for another species and so would not survive to breed on.

personally, i think this comes down to a kind of evolutionary change - every animal adapts to its environment over time changing its requirements to live to suit what is available.

so in effect, it's our fault for domesticating dogs!

By wild dogs do you all mean true wild dogs such as wolves, jackals etc or do you include the local indigenous breeds / types which have for centuries bred in uncontrolled circumstances around native villages? I ask as there are many such "breeds" and they do not seem to have many problems, any problems a puppy or young dog has would not be passed on as they die before they get to a breeding age.
When in South Africa and Mozambique I took time to look at these dogs and they certainly seemed to be fit as a population, with no obvious problems. I filmed some of the dogs as they freely roamed in the early mornings, the rest of the day you rarely saw them. They live almost entirely off scraps of food, and the restaurant next to my daughters house in Chokwe was always having the bins raided.
What I mean by scraps was this food was in most cases rotting by the time the dogs got hold of it as foods go off in such hot places very quickly. My daughter adopted two of these dogs and even though they were fed regularly with a good dog food, they'd still raid bins and a great favourite was the rotting goat skin from the restaurant bins!
If anyone wants to see Africanis go to this web site:
http://www.sa-breeders.co.za/org/africanis/
There has been study done on this breed which shows they are infact a breed (through DNA testing), which came about through thousands of years of breeding in uncontrolled circumstances with no or very little cross breeding with European dogs.

According to this article, HD has indeed been found in wolves. The reason these problems aren't often seen is that the afflicted ones don't survive. There are domestic dogs who suffer digestive problems with raw food; as people keep telling us the gut of the dog is unchanged from that of the wolf, it's logical to assume that the same occurs in wild dogs too. Again, the sufferers would die.

It seems that young wild dogs stay close to the den while the adults go hunting - they don't accompnay them till they're adolescent.

Natural selection - am I right in saying that in a wolf pack only the alphas mate. Given life expectency in the wild, it can be assumed to some degree that only the healthiest dogs are breeding. the Alpha male will mate with one or perhaps two females.

Like John I think all this new fancy food is just nonsense.Dog getting fat means more exercise less food. You have to look at the size of the pet food industry to realise what a fantastic marketing job they do.

I'd like to know how anyone can state categorically that wild dogs don't get diarrhoea :D - has anyone done a comprehensive survey then? :D :D :D         My guess is that wild dogs and wolves with any problems wouldn't survive.

Did a quick search on the web, wild wolves are known to live up to 13 years and in captivity they live even longer ;)
African Wild dogs are quoted as living around 10 years and longer in captivity.  And all without the aid of special foods :D :D