hi i am looking for advice on how to get my 12 week old puppy to stack and keep her head straight any tips greatly appreciated

free standing preferably

georgina

She's very young yet but training her now will mean it is easier I have to free stand my cavaliers & do it during heelwork training with plenty of titbits  First teach her to stand by your side rather than sit & choose a one sylable word as a command I use "up" once she is standing when you halt give the command for the stand & then turn & face her & titbit-at this stage it doesn't matter if she is stood 4 square

As a separate exercise place her into the stand for examination & give the same stand command If you have a breed judged on a table do this on a table

Once she has grasped the stand in front & will stand to be examined without too much  wriggling & fiddling about Then you can start to put the two together, do a bit of heelwork stop tell her to stand & step in front then walk into her gving the stand command until she is as near 4 square as possible & treat & bit more heelwork then playtime & repeat the stand etc again

Never do lots & lots of training each day as you will switch her off. Cavaliers not only have to free stand but also learn to wag their tail at the same time !

Good luck PM me of you want more tips as I don't want to bore people I have used this method on all sorts of free standing(& some usually stacked & held breeds)

Thanks for that MM. I've just got a new puppy (Large Munsterlander) and we usually top and tail them. However, my daughter is going to show this one (pick me up off the floor - ROL :) ) She wants to try free standing her and this has helped her understand just what she has to do. It's going to be a few weeks before we can get to ringcraft for advise and help (pup is 9 weeks old on Friday ;) )

I have a friend who is one of the very few Golden breeders to show free standing & what a difference it makes Her dogs just look so happy & natural I got my first good beardie from her & she still shows her dogs as she did way back in the 70's ! before the american stacking everything became the fashion

LindyLou, tell your daughter a stacked dog is MUCH easier to handle!!! :D

Have spoken to many junior handlers and they will all say the same, Got to the point where I stack my aussie boy to have control over him, otherwise his to two feet given me kisses....I orignally set out to teach him to free stand!

To stack I will just place the feet where I want them, holding the dogs head (either with hand or have them looking at/chewing food in my hand) and then having my arm across their stifles so back legs don't come under!

It works, have 4 setters that stand still (except when the judge looks!)

Hope you don't mind advice from the "other side of the pond."

I have always used "stacking blocks."  They look a lot like obedience dumb bells. They are wooden, are about 4 inches high and have a flat magnet on the bottom and a non-skid surface on top. The box in which they are stored is lined with a flat piece of sheet metal. When opened the box is about 40 inches long and about 18 inches wide.
The blocks are place on the metal, the pup is placed on the blocks (one foot oneach block). If the pup moves a foot, the block falls and startles it. In no time the pup learns to stay still. At first the box is used on a grooming table or other table...as the pup grows, the box can be put on the floor.
By 6 months we have the nicest free stacking dogs.

I saw these blocks used on an Afghan on a programme on animal planet, I thought they looked quite cruel :(

so you cannot get them there , is there a web site to show how they work,

I know all about them & honestly I think they a waste of time & not really suited to UK dog showing, My Golden breeder friend Jean has never needed them & by 6 months her dogs are showing naturally as are mine & I've trained froms from Newfoundlands & Great Danes to Chinese Created to free stand. I was shown by the master of free standing handling the Late Bill Siggers & his method has never failed me. Bill of course was Kennel Manager to JV Rank &  his Great Danes were legendary being always shown free standing on a loose lead

We must be talking about different blocks...if you think them cruel. These are only about 4" inches high. They simply fall over if the pup moves about too much. This simply startles them...in no way hurts or injures them. They soon learn that THEY control it. Of course this is combined with clicker training, treats and lots of praise. 10-15 minute (max) sessions for older pups. I start pups at 8 weeks old (only for a minute or two) by the time we show them at 6months they free stack beautifully. When they are used to the stacking we go completely to clicker training. Since we also show our dogs in obedience...the clicker training carries over.

As a Junior Handling judge a correctly stood free standing dog is a sign of good handling nearly anyone can stack & hold a dog in the show stance. Some of the stacking gundog handlers look really OTT & if your eye is draw to the handler rather than the dog then the dog isn't being handled correctly

Stacking 99% of breeds I'm afraid came from over the pond where nearly all breeds are stacked, certainly in Beardies it did in the late 70's & before all beardies were shown free, now they are 99.9% shown stacked, manily to disguise some quite major faults. I find quite unacceptable to have to place a dogs legs precisely & then hold the dogs head rigidly in place, far better the dogs stand naturally, FYI I I even had free standing GSDs who because of correct construction walked into the classic GSD stance naturally

Why are stacked dogs winning in JH ? because it is easier to hold a dog in the correct stance that to teach it to so stand on it's own

I'm so glad my breed is never shown stacked in the UK - long may it last! They all look so much happier, and there is less opportunity for a handler to disguise faults ... ;)

Our Flat Coats are shown only free stacked. Since our standards gives mention to a tail in constant motion...it would be rather difficult to show them like some breeds...holding the tail. (Hats off to you if you can grab a FCR tail :-) )In fact when the judge examines our dogs, the dog remains still minus any interference from me...accept perhaps showing them the bait. The only thing moving is tha tail!

I agree 1000% that stacking and holding a dog in such a stack does indeed disguise faults...or accentuates positives (nice neck etc..) But a good judge will find the faults that handlers are trying to disguise by stacking. Putting your hands on them usually reveals all. I do believe that the better judges ask handlers to allow their dogs to stand naturally after they move them.  You can tell a lot about front asssemblies and rear agualtion by allowing a dog to walk into a stack...but likewise you can find this when you examine the dogs. When judging dogs it creates a much nicer picture to see a dog happily and correctly free baited (free stacked).

I do agree it is easier to position a dog and hold it rather than teaching them to stand...but I firmly believe in clicker training and stacking blocks to help achieve a perfect stance with manual manipulation.

The stacking blocks simply teach the pups where to position their feet and to hold it. There are indeed times in the group ring, that I am not above manually moving a foot or two..then backing off and having the dog stay put.

Stacking blocks are damn unessessary, what happened to stand and stay?
Dawn.

At a show I attended recently, the judge went up and stacked the dog and then gave it a 1st.

How can you free stack ?

Stacking in UK parliance means to place a dog in position & holding it there, free standing means just that the dog stands naturally unaided by the handler except for getting the dogs attention without touching it & I have seen FCR stacked by handlers who have other breeds such as english setters

A friend of mine won the first UK CC with her dog at Crufts & he was a Large Munsterlamder & she showed him free standing & always showed all her LMs & other breeds the same way

Professional handlers are rarely seen in the free standing breeds may be one or two of the very best but I have never seen one in the Cavalier ring, friends & breeders yes & in the case of one young german gentleman(& he is a gentleman in the old sense of the word)he was staying with the owners/breeders & the husband is a very poorly person & not able to handler the dogs himself. His rapport with the dogs is lovely & when he won a CC with one his face was a picture when  he came out of the ring in tears beaming ear to ear. but cavaliers & other free standing breeds do not on the whole show well for strangers

In the UK the owner/breeder/exhibitor is much more the norm than in the USA

hi
dare kennels i to got 5 fcr i and i have always free stand my fcr training them from 8 week old,if the dog is balace in body four square it will stand well,

where abouts are you on the other side of the pond,
what your affixs of your kennel
mine is glenturret you can see my lot under the fcr on this site.
it nice that you have joined champdogs

terri durrant

The best way is to start gettine her to 'stand' every time you feed her. No big deal, don't touch her, and at this age just wait till she has all four feet on the floor when you stand in front of her with her food bowl. When she's still, even for half a second, say 'Stand', then praise and let her have her food. (I was told to always hold the food bowl at pup's chest height when they eat to encourage a good front, and eliminate food-aggression.)

As the days and weeks pass you can wait a smidgin longer between the stand and the reward, and before too long pup will be happy to stand still, knowing that the food is coming. At this stage you can get a bit pickier about foot position and by moving yourself you can get pup to back up then come forward again. As the number of meals are cut you introduce 5-minute training sessions to replace them.

Done well, and from the earliest days, you'll have a dog who free-stands happily and will never need touching in the ring.
:)

thanks a million everyone
over the last two weeks i have put her on a table and held a treat in my fist and i would say 'stand' and hold my hand above her head so that she would hold up her head and she is now standing still . then i touch her feet etc like a judge would do and she is fine so will keep doing so

now i need advice on getting her to walk beside me like in the ring i cannot bring her to ringcraft till she gets her booster next week

keep the advice coming please

georgina

I train my puppies off lead(stops them learning to pull against the lead for starters)using titbits &/or toys & silly voices !good job we don't have near neighbours or they would think I'm a bit daft !(well more daft than they already think I am)

If I am doing "breed" training I hold a titbit in my hand where I want the dogs head to be slightly out to the side further than when I do my obedience training & I use a totally different command of "head up"& lota of praise It is quite a lot harder than using a lead as I have to work on getting the puppy 100% attention but I don't have any pulling on the lead & it makes it a lot easier at ringcraft too. I only do about 5 minutes 2/3 times a day & lots of play afterwards

any more advice

hi what breed is your dog ? i try to free stand my dog as much as pos , also he does tend to need a quick stack it depends what moodhe is in ! i use live chucks or heart . he in fact bothe of mine love this . you can also get galic powder a sprickle over them when cooking wll just them a little bit more and will get the dogss attention please let me now how u gert on

<i use live chucks > I hope you don't use live Chucks & mean real chicken ! ;)

hi she is a tibetan terrier
14 weeks old

We're getting somewhere with our little baby. Daughter and pup are in one room, and I'm in another pulling my hair out Why, oh why don't kids listen? I can't wait to get to ringcraft and let someone else tell my daughter what to do. (I'm doing some of the training when daughter is OUT) The ting is, my daughter is going to do most of the showing and I don't want to interfere, BUT I just wish she would listen. Have had to give up on training her for now, she's gone sulky! KIDS.

LOl Have you tried clicker training her ? The daughter that is ;) She will probably accept someone else telling her what to do re dog training I know the teens at our club do !

no sorry i ment liver !!

LOLOLOL I couldn't seen you dangling a live chicken in front of a dog LOLOLOLOL

not infront of dudley anway ! he would eat ity write up .

I agree with JG on this one.

But I go one step further than that, when we have a new pup around I always have a pocket full of titbits and every so often whatever I am doing I ask for a stand from the adults and the youngster follows suit and is given a titbit.

Its amazing how quickly they learn to freestand.

I continue to do this as they get older, sometimes titbiting sometimes not, so they don't come to expect it every time.

Don't expect her to stand absolutely correct at this age, that will come gradually as you train her at ringcraft.  I never reach down to position feet.  I just very gently push them into required postion with my toe.  If you reach down to re-position feet it they tend to move altogether.

Hi,

There are many Golden retrivers that are shown free standing as well as stacked
:-)

My own 4 I can do either with :-) sometimes I stack just then move round to the front ,sometimes I freestand then crouch down at show tail.
Soetimes I go to shows and majority of Goldies are free standing and the next class more of stacked or done both.
Just depends what mood my dogs in but all 4 of mine are happy to free stand or stack.

Briony ;-)

Hi,

Just to say something about my Goldies when I stack.I never hold their legs in place and a good judge will have gone over the dogs whether stacked or not seen them move watch them waiting their turn to be seen and gone over the dog properly a good experience judge will see through any faults you attempt to cover and although I do stack sometimes, always after doing triangle up down my dogs finish free standing at the judge:-)I then return to line and then decide whether to stack or freestand:-)

Briony ;-)

Hi,

Am I missing something here???

What is wrong with  a stacked dog taking a 1st???

Surely the judge has gone over this dog with his hands,seen this dog move ????
Experienced judge would know exactly what he looking for whether stacked or Freestanding all of my dogs have had 1st both stacked and freestanding :-)

Briony :-)

You missed the salient point The Judge stacked the dog  not the handler !

<the judge went up and stacked the dog >

Hi,

So the judge re-stacked the dog,surely he already been over the dog seen it move and he restacked the dog whether whole or just moved a leg I can't see the problem.

I often see across different breeds judges moving a leg into position when freestanding or stacked and the judge step back again to take a look.
I've seen a dog been re-stacked by a judge then decide not to place it at all :-)

Briony :-)

Hi Briony, I made that post as it was the first time I had seen a judge stack, the handler seemed quite surprised too.  Some Goldens were stacked, the rest were freestanding, this handler was freestanding. The judge had been over the dog and this was on the final elimination. One hindleg was just out of line so the judge re-stacked. But, I thought it was down to the handler to show the dog to its best advantage, not the judge. By the way, it was a nice dog and did deserve the placing. :)

Hi,

No i've seen lots of judges do this,generally speaking however its down to the handler to the dog off to its best advantage,but a judge sometimes picks the head up for closer look,or moves a leg or restacks .I've seen then do this to what they think may be novice handler and an experienced handler.At the end of the day a well experienced judge with a good eye would want to make absolutely sure what he/she put up on the day in their opinion was the dog they thought was best to be placed where they think in aline up or maybe decide after all they don't want to place that particular dog.

I personally think its nice to see judges not in such a hurry to get through classes and you get the feeling hes checking out construction again and wants to be sure  much rather see a judge do this my opinion :-) especially as we pay alot of money to go under judges even if I was one of the handlers that didn't get placed.

Briony :-)

If a dog I really like isn't standing correctly when I look again at them I don't have a problem in placing it as I judge on structure & movement according to the breed standard & to quote the late Bill Siggers master of the free standing Great Dane"If it's moves right it is made right"As long as the dog is happy the slightly incorrectly stood dog that fits the standard should win If I want to check I will ask the handler to move the dog again & get them to free stand their dog at the end

Of course I can always check what I found when doing the dog's individual assessment from the copious notes I take on examination(coming from being a GSD judge)

If it's moves right it is made right
I used to think that too until I did an Afghan judging course some 15 years ago.  They deliberately had dogs there who moved well but were very badly made - no bend of stifle, upright shoulders etc.  They were all older dogs whose bodies had compensated well for their defects.  Equally they had dogs who were well constructed but underexercised, with no muscle tone at all.  When they moved they were all over the place.
A very beneficial day put on by very knowledgable breeders/exhibitors, where we all learned that you need eyes and hands to judge a dog.  I certainly don't judge from the ringside anymore without asking to go over the dog when it comes out of the ring!

Having spent a lot of time on watching dogs move & been on a good few seminars similar to the Afghan on & been a guest"student"judge in Germany with a top SV(now retired judge) I don't just judge on movement many modern beardies appear to move & be correct on a quick trot up & down & round, but you make them move for an extended period the ones with the short rib cage & long coupling cannot sustain the level topline no matter how fit they are & if they are over or under angulated  apparantly correct rear movement is also revealed . I make copious notes from my GSD days on all the dogs not just the placed dogs & this means I judge with my hands & my eyes & obviously I insist on loose leads & collars

It is one of the reasons that GSDs are gaited for prolonged periods  not just to test fittest I can assure you. Most gaiting in GSDs should be done at the walk not trot for the same reason.

The free standing at the end of the individual assessment can also reveal incorrect structure.

Hi

However the more i've seen in the rings,for me personally speaking not always the case.I have seen Goldies that tend to be longer in loin and still hold a perfectly level topline on the move and stacked/freestood.Some appear longer in loin but upon further examination will actually find slightly longer in ribcage giving impression longer in loin when indeed not.

To be honest an individual dog may stand terribly after indiviual assessment at that particular moment after finishing up down but when watched going back round to join others inline and freestood again for the judge to make mind up and place can appaer all is well.Vice versa the dog finishes well after assessment but in line up stands not so good this is when a judge may come over restack move a foot and step back again.

What appears to be right with one breed may clearly not be with another.
Given a decent size ring on average you can assess a Goldie movement quite adequately on a loose lead and its not about how fast you get around ring that to me does not assess movement or fitness.Its about the dogs ability to stride out with good drive with good muscleing which would allow the dog to work all day if it was asked to.If hes made correctly he should have this power and drive coming from him.

Just my personal thoughts :-)

Briony

That's what I get annoyed with some GSD people they think the faster they run the better the dog looks-instead of a collected controlled walk as they do in Germany

When I say free standing at the end of an individual I don't mean an abrupt halt but let the handler get the dog to stand nicely four square(yes even in GSDs)

I judged BC's once & gaited them slightly more than once around the ring at a steady pace, one of the handlers came out of the ring & in a very loud voice said "B Hell anyone would think Borders are a working breed not a show dog"My lovely ring steward(I later found out she has Rotties who she did WT as well as show)fell about laughing when I answered her back"Madam I think you will find they did used to be until they split the working group into two I thought you were in the breed when this happened"

I did think BC's should be able to move for 5 minutes of steady gaiting without falling apart at the seams topline bouncing like a rubber ball & criss crossing front & back !

.

I wish judges in BC's did move them for 5 minutes, instead of triangle and up and down. My collie will go on and on and on at a trot in the ring, watching some of them go round though I think any more running and they'd run out of puff (the dogs not the handlers!). Earlier this year at a border collie breed show she got chucked out of her first class but won the 2nd, the judge (he breeds gsd's) said she really moved well the 2nd time. It's quite difficult to get her to move exactly the same twice tho!

I've been told to stack her, but after reading this I think I will go back to free standing her, she much prefers it cos she can get a sausage and wag her tail!

Char

Very true, and well said!! :) I totally agree. :) It should also be the same for any working, herding, or hunting breed :)  Only my opinion though.

Oh what fun we're having ;) I decided to try to teach Seska to free stand, and to be stacked, depending on how we felt at the time. Hmm. Silly thing to do. She will free stand quite well (so long as you don't look to see HOW she is standing :) ) but the minute you lay a hand on her she thinks it is play time :D Lead training is coming along nicely, too. I go left, she goes right, so I go right. ;) Not quite, but it's fun having a puppy again. NOT.

LOLOL I know the feeling but I can't stack mine being cavaliers & boy do they know that in the ring if there are pretty girl dogs in the next ring(don't even have to be Cavaliers!)