Hi all. I have a question about spaying.
I have read the other messages about spaying and have to say that I have a male at the mo that my other half won't get 'done'. Like lots of other fellas he does not believe in having dogs seen to but is quite happy for our new bitch to be spayed!!! (don't even get me started on that one!! LOL- we have done all the arguments on that one)Anyway, my concern is that if we wait for her first season to be over before getting her done - what kind of nightmare can we expect from our dog? I have heard two thoughts about spaying - get it done at 6 months or wait until after the first season is over then get her done. My thought goes with the spaying at 6 months, because of the circumstances, I figure that would be best for all concerned but alot of people have berated me for even thinking it.The usual Stuff - let her have a litter, wait till she is mature at 2 yrs, she will have all sorts of problems if spayed so young. You name it, I have heard it! I think it would be cruel to both dogs if I don't get it done at 6 months but am getting very confused because everyone has an opinion!What concerns should I have if she is done at 6 months? Any useful advise would be helpful

Sharon, you must do what is right for your circumstances and your dogs. Personally, I wouldn't have a bitch spayed before a year old because I feel that they need that extra time to mature, but many bitches are spayed much younger than 6 months of age and appear to suffer no ill effects. Have a chat with your vet and good luck :-)

Thistle is a 10 month old lab and just having her first season (ahhh). I am going to have her spayed in about 3 months time when she has settled down again. I think there are all sorts of arguments for and against and when and if and I've thought about it long and hard. At the end of the day you've got to think about your own circumstances. I certainly wouldn't want to have a male and female in season in the same house. Is there any kind friend who could look after your dog while the bitch has her first season and then at least she has had that one batch of hormones.
Tricky isn't it??
Good luck
Jane

Leigh do you think this is the same (i.e. their age) for little dogs and large dogs as we have a little girl shih tzu (on 14 weeks at the moment). I think I will have to buy a book on what happens to girl dogs. Just been given the address of a good site for dog books (much cheaper than Amazon) so any ideas what I should be "asking" for please?

Ta Gina.

There are many arguements about when to get a bitch spayed, and whether to get a dog neutered. Talk to your vets about their recommendations. Personally I believe if you have the right circumstances you can wait till the dogs first season is over, however in your case this would be difficult. Turmoil would in all probability ensue in your house, and you want to avoid a first season pregnancy and unwanted puppies at all costs. In rescue we have spayed many dogs and had very few problems with bitches at 6 months ... and those we do are often found in older bitches also, eg incontinent, and this is very very unusual (of the hundreds of dogs I have arranged spaying only 1 or 2 have had this issue.

On the dog question, all my dogs are neutered too ... and apart from the interest of other male dogs on occassions, I can honestly say they are no different from any non neutered dog. They don't even know anything has gone as it doesn't stop mine being interested if I foster a bitch in season!!

Hi Gina,

Sorry, I have no experience of little dogs at all. I can only speak from personal experience with my own breeds and my own instincts. Not scientific, but it works for me :-) Have a word with your breeder as she should be able to advise you on your best course of action.

People regularly recommend:

The Book of the Bitch : 'A Complete Guide to Understanding and Caring for Bitches'
by J. M. Evans, Kay White

I am not sure if the above will cover your questions, but maybe someone can clarify or recommend an alternative book?

My 'bible' is Trevor Turner's "Veterinary Notes For Dog Owners" :-)

Thanks Leigh, Will buy the Book of the Bitch book as it seems it could be the one for a first timer like me.
Regards Gina

I do have small dogs and I would agree with all you said Leigh, I think it does go for small dogs as well.

I would also recommend the Book of the Bitch, it is an excellent publication.

Joan
Take the rough with the smooth

I was just about to say that Leigh- then I read further down:)and realised you already had;)

Stacey x x x

Salem.
I personally would not have a bitch spayed before her first season. How about a "chemical castration" for your dog. I think is is called "Tardak", works for about 4 weeks and has no long term effects. I know some one that used it and it worked a treat. Your bitch can have her season and your dog cannot get into trouble. Or,- how about boarding your dog through her critical times, you will then know they are both safe and you have peace of mind.
p.s why do men have this "thing" about castrating dogs ?

Dawn.

"Sympathy pains" That's all it is... personally, I think it's the word "Castrating" that you Brits tend to use more. It gives the impression that everything is being cut off & images are easily transferred to the male psyche. I prefer "neuter" or "alter"...esp. the latter since it's so generic :D

My opinion on spaying & I'm a product of the US spay/neuter education programs that have been propagating for over 10 years now. I support altering your pets if you are not serious about showing & breeding. There are too many unwanted puppies in this world already. I firmly believe that it has little to do with a female's mental growth.

6 months is a good time to spay. But remember, the smaller the breed, the faster the maturity level grows. This translates to an earlier the chance of first heat & esp. a silent heat in bitches. If you spay a bitch before her first heat, the likelihood of mammary & other cancers drop to almost nil. The second & third heats it's about a 50% benefit rate... after that, not much difference from an intact bitch.

If you have not dealt with a female in heat before, I would not recommend it with a dog around. You'll have a tough enough time dealing with her when the hormones really kick in. Trust me, I had to go through it with a neutered male. Shay basically "raped" him. If she begins signs of going into heat.... please, see about putting him in a kennel. You'll sleep better for it :D She too, will be pushing to mate. So you'll be getting it from both sides. Dogs can smell bitches in heat 5-10 miles away depending on the winds. So don't leave her outside. She will do her best to get out of the yard to them.
good luck
toodles

I am another one who wouldn't spay until after the bitch was mature but I accept that plenty of people do without any ill effect. However I would say that any advice given to you that a bitch needs to have a litter before being spayed is absolute nonsense, there is no good reason at all for having a litter just for the bitches sake.

Joan
Take the rough with the smooth

Yep, no matter how many of us debate about whether or not 'tis better to spay before/after heat/maturity, I believe we all can agree that the idea a "bitch must have a litter" is pure mythological bunk. :) Nice to get a consensus every so often. Enjoy it, it's rather rare :D
toodles

I have a 8 month old cocker spaniel bitch that i was going to wait until after her 1st season to have her speyed but after speaking to the receptionist at my local vets i had her speyed at 6 months, that night she was very sorry for herself but the next day was a lot better although she slept a lot, by the second day she was almost her old self. She recovered from the operation very quickly and by the time her stitches were out you would not have know she had had an operation. After all, we humans recover quicker when we are younger so why not our canine friends? ShirleyTwins

Hi Shirley,
I perfectly agree with you concerning the healing better when younger. In the US, it's been proven safe for quite a few years, so the shelters & societies are spaying & neutering puppies around 6-12 weeks before they let them go to homes.

What our debate about spaying mostly concerns is maturity levels. Some believe that spaying before the first or second heat keeps the bitch immature physically & mentally. They use their vast experience & advice of others as a sound basis of their viewpoint. That's perfectly ok to have this opinion. (I"m not saying "vast" to be sarcastic, I'm being very sincere)

I follow the other side of the debate: Reap the proven health benefits that reduce the chances of cancer and accidental pregnancy by spaying before the first heat.

Perhaps the bitch doesn't mature as she naturally would, but that really hasn't been proven yet to be consistent in all breeds. To me, that's a minor issue vs. the health risks of possible cancer, the hassle of mood swings, & an unwanted pregnancy.

When I had Chienne spayed at 5 months, I did it so early because the intact dog next door was 65 pounds to her 15. Her becoming pregnant with his pups could have been deadly for her. I did not want any chance of that happening.

We do all seem to agree that the common advice to "have a litter for the sake of the bitch" is myth & should be ignored. That's a good point for us to unite upon. We also agree that there are too many unwanted dogs out there for this to keep happening. It's nice to have unity once in a while :D
toodles

Hi, i have just had my 3 year old bitch spayed, and although she felt sorry for herself for about 4 days she is now absolutely fine. After the sad days she was bouncing around like nothing had happened, and i had to try and keep her quiet to save her stiches. She had them out today (2 days early as she had healed so well) and is completely as she was before. I personally don't think the age of the dog matters that much as long as they are still relatively young (under 4) but do think it is a good idea hormonally to allow them to have one season.

Hi - thanks for all the info. I'm still trying to get the other half to agree on having Salem seen to - Men and sympathy pains!! My other concern is that since we intend to show the new girl, can she be shown if spayed? I know that is a dippy question but something that I had only just thought about. I know that dogs are shown complete but does that matter with a bitch since nothing can be seen anyway? Also, does anyone know who the author of the book is that was mentioned a few times? She will be our first bitch (we have always had dogs in the past) so we are still apprehensive of what we are getting into! I would still prefer for her to be spayed but I'm hoping someone can tell me if it will affect the showing side of things.
Thanks all very much
Sharon

I am almost certain you are not allowed to show a dressed Bitch either..
Someone will sure correct if not..

Pam

PS..It is funny how were are with our dogs..I had always had bitches..well except one dog alot of years ago whom I had a bad peeing experience with. So the outcome of this was I generally liked bitches for their cleanliness. After him I never wanted another male dog again. So for me I found bitches easier.

However I have been showing a bitch this year and recently bought a dog as was adviced Dogs are better to show he is still young but not ecountered any problems so far.

The KC will automatically allow a spayed bitch to be shown, but you are supposed to inform them and obtain permission.

In the past neutered animals were allowed to be shown only if they had registered progeny, and then permission did not have to be sought.

A few years ago now it was accepted that in the changing climate re responsible ownership, it was felt that there should not be restrictions placed on owners who wanted to show, but didn't want to breed.

In fact the top dog all breeds one year was a shetland sheepdog, called Myrieheu Rosa Bleu, who sadly had to be spayed after a Pyometra following her first season!!!

The effect on coat has to be considered, as in some breeds (mainly spaniels) it can ruin the coat!

And in some it can be a help, Brainless, I seem to remember a bit of moaning about Rosa :)

Thnaks Brainless for that. It is great to be updated with things.

It was really daft IMHO.

I can transfer this info to another site if you don't mind as I remember the posters there discussing it and i don't think it was settled.

Regards

Pamela

Yes you can show a spayed bitch, Salem, you need to apply for permission from the Kennel club which you should get without problem. I think you are supposed to tell the judge but I am not sure about that and I am not sure how they would tell if you didn't. I am not sure what breed you have, Salem, if it is a coated breed you may find you have difficulties showing as the coat will often change after spaying and will either just become a lot more work or even totally unsuitable for showing.

Now in the US --the AKC will treat you as if you have a contagiously diseased & useless animal and ban you from everything ... except obediance & even that has attidudinal problems against altered canines from what I've heard. :( It seems that the KC is more enlighted about this matter--cheers!!! :)

>>Also, does anyone know who the author of the book is that was mentioned a few times?

Sharon,if you mean the "Book of the bitch" ...see my above post ;-)

Hi, If you are interested in showing your bitch, it would be a great shame if she had been spayed and then became a big winner and you couldn't have any pups from her. You may not think this now, but if you do get the showing bug, AND she does well, you may kick yourself a couple of years down the line that you cant get a puppy from her to show and build up your own line. Although spayed bitches are becoming more accepted, if you really want to get into showing, my advice would be not to spay - at least not yet. I would wait and see how she gets on in the ring and then decide. To get over the "accidental mating problem" why not suggest to your partner that if he's not willing to have the male neutered then maybe he could pay for kenneling for him for 3 weeks twice a year! :-) ;-)

HI WL and all,

This brings the next question..Can you tell me anything about treatment to prevent bitches from coming into season temorarily and how effective it is? this then brings the next question, is it safe? any side affects etc..?

Hope you had a nice break..

Pamela

Hi Pam, I haven't used season suppressors myself, but asked my vet about it some years ago. He said "not to interfere" if I wanted to breed in the future. He's a bit of a "natural man" !! and doesn't like messing around with hormones in breeding stock unless absolutely necessary, and said it may disrupt seasons in the future, by messing about with her "hormonal clock". Perhaps others may have more informed knoweldge about this, but I just took his advice and left well alone. I was showing a young bitch at the time, who was due in season around the time of one of the few Ch. shows I could get to, and wanted to be sure I could take her, but took his advice, left well alone and luckily she came in season a few days after the show - phew!!
Yes, I had a great time thanks Pam. :-)

One thing springs to my mind here.

I have a bitch who was spayed due to medical reasons after her first season. I also have an entire male who I show. I found out that entire bitches only become attractive to males when they are in season whereas spayed bitches can give off a little scent all the time making them attractive all the time. That may explain why my male tries to mount her and she is having none of it. If I were to get another bitch and wasn't showing her I'd now be in two minds whether to spay or not. Thoughts anyone as this would be relevant to Salem's situation.

My spayed bitches have never been attractive to male dogs! My castrated dog on the other hand!

I wonder if a small piece of ovarian tissue has been left, I believe that can happen sometimes particularly if the spay was not done at the optimum time, ie between seasons.

I would definately agree with the statment that some spayed bitches are continually attractive to dogs. My old Bethany was spayed mid way between seasons and always left havoc in her wake! (I must say that it wasn't helped by the fact that she was the biggest flirt I ever knew!)

Regards, John

Pepper used to go through a false yearly heat... so not only was she flirting with human men, she'd allow the dogs to get close to her too for about 3 weeks in Feb. Only time she was ever playful towards other four legged beasties. ;)

Hi to all
Salem is a Dobermann and our new pup will be also. She will be our first bitch and so I have been out and ordered 'The book of the bitch' everyone recommended so thanks to all for that. I'm looking forward to reading up on it all :)
I'm really quite certain that I would like to spay her - I understand that it seems a bit drastic now and I have thought about all of the 'what if's' but at the end of the day - whether she ended up a sucessfull champion or not - I don't feel that I know enough to breed puppies. That should be left to people more expert than me!!! LOL There is a huge responsibility that goes with breeding, Puppies, rehoming and all that and I would hate to get it all wrong! - quite asside that I would want to keep them all !!! LOL :) As for the kennelling suggestion - that didn't work because his mum offered to have him (the dog not my husband ) when pup has a season. It would seem that none of his family believe in dogs being neutured!
Sharon

How refreshing to read a post with such a responsible attitude!! :D
Good on ya Salem, I wish you health, happiness and fun with your new baby! ;)