My rather large puppy has always been a bit of a pain, but he is getting a bit out of control. He has been to 2 puppy socialisation classes (12 weeks worth since 10 weeks old) and is now 6 months old and weighs 27kg! He still mouthes all the time, and we try to ignore it and turn our backs, but he just nips and growls at our backs, legs, bottoms (sometimes a bit close for comfort with his teeth). How do you ignore that? You can stand there like a soldier or continue with what you are doing, but he doesnt give up! We praise him and treat him when he is good. If we let him in with the children aged 3 and 5 he has to be on his lead because he just jumps up and mouths them. I have weekly consultations with his breeders and read lots of books and have continued with his basic training.  He is a beautiful boy and we love him dearly, but this has got to stop and I dont know how. It is like he is trying to dominate us, and we have been doing what we thought were all the right things (ignoring the behaviour, gesture feeding etc), but it just doesnt seem to be working. I will not give up on him, but I am running out of ideas! Any advice on this would be appreciated.

I have replied on the other thread, but I'd just like to ask what you hope to acheive by 'gesture feeding'?  Is this the concept that the 'Alpha' wolf feeds first?  I'm afraid this idea is falwed because it's based on captive wolf packs whose hierachy is so much more fragile than a wild packs.  Your puppy is trying it on, because he's programmed to - he has no plans for world domination ;)

I was following the guidelines from a reputable book that was recommended to me, that guesture feeding would show that I/We are the boss. Was I wrong? What will work? I will try anything that will help. He is a very large, boisterous puppy, who has no problems with challenging me (5ft nothing) or my husband (6ft 3")!!

Julia

I think I know the book you mean ;)  Personally I believe the reason a lot of the methods recommended in that book work is because they are simply promoting consistency.  If you 'gesture eat' before a dog gets his meal, he recognises that this is just one of the things *you* do before he gets his meal - it means nothing else to him, because you don't replicate the slight raising of the shoulders, or the 'freezing' and the 'stare' if he tries to move in on your meal.  Also, if you insist your dog waits until you have passed through a door way, he will slowly learn not to rush, which can save accidents, and likewise, not stepping over a dog can mean he won't get up while you're balanced and trip you over.  It also means he learns he can never just 'chill' and take his mind off what you want for a second, which in my mind isn't healthy.

If it's 'the book' I'm thinking it is, then it's not all it's cracked up to be, I'm afraid. In a truly wild situation, a bitch will feed her pups before she eats herself (she instinctively wants her genes to survive, so she won't do anything to hamper that), which flies in the face of the theory that the 'superior' eats first ...

Interestingly, I was watching the BBC prog about Longleat the other day, and they had a single surviving wolf cub, and the keepers were amazed because this one 8 week old puppy was allowed first pickings of the carcase - they'd enver seen it before, because these were captive wolves, and it totally amazed the keepers.

hi digger

just wanted to say i used to work at longleat last year and loved every minute of it (moved a few 100 miles so had to leave) but i used to look after these wolves along with the 2 lion prides and three tigers.  Every time i guarded the wolves in the wagons whilst the public were there the fansinated me so much and i learnt so much from them.  Evry packs in captivity i have met seem to act exactly the same with the omega wolf and denning and alpha males and females.  When i was there we had a loss of the alpha male and it was so amazing seeing the other males try to work out who was going to be the alpha one tip was my favourite and always the 1st to investigate.  Once when we had to do the strimming in the enclosure and i turned round as i felt somehing watchin me and it was one tip about 10 foot from me. (the person who was meant to be watchin out for them wasnt watching good enough)  luckily the wolves were very timid but so so amazing.

sorry that had nothing to do with anything just brought back memories

Hi snap ive got almost the same thing with our 6mth old, now he doesnt mouth as we stopped that early on but he has reached the Kevin stage where he thinks its grand to charge around like something demented. He also lives with two other dogs one being his mother who im waiting for any day to put him in line but she just lets him get on with mouthing her and biting her tail well the little tail she has, the other is a male who thinks its grand having another mate to charge around with. I know when our little chap was mouthing we would make a high pitch ouch this seemed to work on him.

I doubt that the problem is with 'dominance'. Your boy probably just hasn't learned the parameters of civilised behaviour yet. An older dog would soon put him firmly in his box if he nipped and although I know I'm going to get into all sorts of trouble for saying so, I'd yell 'No!' and give him a sharp smack when he mouths.

Hmmm.. don't agree with the smacking personally, would lead to hand-shyness. I also have a 6 month old, and most of the time she's pretty good not mouthing. But when she gets really worked up she can't help herself, although admittedly it's not painful. If she starts to act up I yelp really loudly and really act like I've been mortally wounded and briskly leave the room and shut the door/gate behind me for a minute or two. When I walk back in I call her to me, make her sit and then give her some calm attention. She's only started to act up once or twice after me re-entering the room, whereupon I just leave her again. Now she knows I mean business, so behaves when I come back in

:-)

I would simply keep him on  a lead in the house and calmly take him out for up to half a minute each time he mouths, it takes a little time but you aren't risking anyhand shy prolems. If you are consistent it works very well - but you MUST be consistent. My pup was the original Mad Bitey Puppy and smacking would have made her nip and come in because she is of a herding/guarding breed and it would have been to her like dodging the herd animal (didn't want to smack her anyway so i wouldn't consider that) and the method worked very well indeed. She now has a gentle mouth and is very sweet when we play.

Lindsay
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Thanks for all your advice. We tried the yelp, and then the low growl from day one, but it has always added to his excitement! He was always the model "student" at puppy training, and the trainer always used to suggest that other owners with shy puppies let them say hello to Barney first because he would just lay on the floor or sit and would allow other puppies to come close and sniff him. At training he was the chilled puppy who did as he was told. As soon as I got him out of the door it was back to normal! Pulling, jumping, mouthing etc. When I explained this to my trainer, he looked at me like I was mad. He is a briard which can be particularly stubborn. I have never known any other breeds as I grew up with them. As of Thursday next week I will be driving him 15 miles away to a highly recommended Kennel Club accredited training club, so I hope that they can help me! There are no problems with Barney's 3 litter sisters (there were only 4 and he was the only boy). I keep asking my parents' advice as they have a 2 year old bitch and a 14 week old boy, but after 25 years they have not seen behaviour quite this persistent and dont know what to suggest. I know in my heart thet he will grow up to be a wonderful companion and family member, but it is just getting through this adolescent period I am really struggling with. I wouldnt smack him because I cannot risk my children ever copying what they see me do.  As much as I love Barney they come first. To be perfectly honest he is so big that I dont think he would feel it anyway!!

I do think we've sort of thrown the baby out with the bath water on smacking. No one wants to go back to the very harsh methods of training that used to be advised but imo a firm smack has a place. This is a teenage lout after all, not a tiny puppy. I know many, many dogs that have had the occassional smack and not a single one of them is hand shy.  Like it or not dogs do use physical means to sort out bad behaviour. One of my bitches has a neat little tooth shaped bruise on her ear right now because she went too far once too often with the pack leader. Apropos another thread, my bitches also grab nipping or misbehaving pups by the entire head and later by the muzzle. They roar at naughty pups and basically give them a good fright.

The difference between the dam or pack leader and the human intervening physically is that far too often the human hits the dog in anger (and perhaps in utter frustration after failing again and again with non-physical methods?) and then they goes on being angry. The mother or leader give the pup or subservient adult a quick shock and perhaps a nip, but that's it over, done and forgotten. I think we could learn from that.

Except with the tinies most fragile breeds a smack is going to cause far less pain than a nip from a sibling or being upended by another dog in play. Only the most shy and nervous dog or pup is going to be upset in the long term by a quick smack and a yelled 'No!' I suspect it bothers most less than the constant 'nagging' type correction advised by some who insist on zero physical correction.

One of the problems i have with smacking etc is that most people, with the best will in the world, will get the timing wrong and end up smacking as the dog's mouth comes off etc. Or they will use it when frustrated or fed up. I used to be much harsher with dogs than i am now, but now i have learnt that  i can stop mouthing etc without smacks. If i can, anyone can ;) You really don't have to nag. That's not good training as we all know. Problem is there is so much conflicting advice - i dislike the "yelp" advice because, as the Julia says, her pup (and most pups, because the uelp is not often of the right pitch or intenstity) get very excited at the new squeakytoy owner.

I found the taking the pup out works very well, plus a combination of redirecting onto toys, rewarding good decisions, use of voice correcty to praise and if necessary admonish, and showing the pup what is acceptable, along with calm praise when dog is lying calmly etc.

JMHO
Lindsay
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Hi Julia, I also have a Briard and your post reminded me so much of when Saffy was young (in fact she was even worse as she ripped our clothes and caught our skin very often!).  I think the problem is so much worse as they are so much bigger than a lot of other breeds and so the jumping up, etc seems tenfold. Also, when we tried squirting water at Saffy, she didn't notice because of her hair!

I must say that I had to get VERY firm with Saffy in the end -  I had to go for the shock tactic - I used a rolled up newspaper and whenever she was misbehaving I banged it very hard on the wall/floor/settee, etc.  You are coming up to the teenage stage with Barney - at that point Saffy would bark at me if I told her to leave the room, and so I used the newspaper for that also.  I had quite a few problems with Saffy when she was young (and she was my first dog), they are such a stubborn/dominant breed if not handled correctly as you know and I think I let Saffy get away with too much at first.  Now she is the most gorgeous dog I could ever wish for and very obedient (most of the time).  She still does jump up people she really loves if they have been away for a while, but we have found a way to manage that now.

One thing I would say is that with young children it is very difficult with big dogs - the more you keep them apart from the children, the more excited they are when they see them and so the problem is worse, but my children did go through a brief stage of disliking Saffy. They used our living room to have time away from Saffy (and still do as she loves to steal their toys!).

It was a long process for us and as I say she is still very exciteable with people she loves, but you will get there in the end.

Fiona

hi there, in order to stop ur pup mouthing u, if ignoring isnt working, i have found that instead of leaving the room yourself, place the pup in the hallway for 2 minutes, if the behaviour continues when u bring him back in, then put him back out into the hall until he gets the idea that playtime stops when he displays unwanted behaviour.
This worked well with my pup as we were having the same problem that turning our backs didnt work.

Our new JRT pup has been a bit of a shock to us since our other dog, a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel was really calm and sedate as a puppy.  Our JRT is like a rubber ball with teeth :D  I have taken advice from our local dog trainer before the proper training classes start in two weeks.  She said to fill a houseplant sprayer with water and have it on quite a direct jet.  Whenever our pup does something that we dont want her to, ie mouthing too hard, going for your feet, jumping up, then at the exact same time she does it, say a firm 'no' and squirt the dog in the face (sounds awful but it doesnt hurt and its just as shocking as a smack).  The timing is crucial and it must be aimed at the pups face, it doesnt seem to have the same effect anywhere else.  We found that yelping or smacking just led to either more excited behaviour or her trying to counteract the smack with a snap of the mouth.  We only had to squirt her a couple of times (and boy did she look surprised) for her to stop the behaviour.  It didnt hurt her, and there was nothing added to the water, and she didnt associate our hands with it, she could also not get the water stream, like she would try to if it was our hands. If she gets over excited now we just have to go find the squirt bottle and she just stops whats she is doing.  Hope this helps.

<<<<<<<<<If we let him in with the children aged 3 and 5 he has to be on his lead because he just jumps up and mouths them>>>>>>>.
Julia
do you mean he is shut away from the family? If so this will only make things worse.He needs to be with the family as much as possible and then the novelty will wear off.Get your self a water pistol and when he does anything you dislike (since ignoring doesn't work) squirt him(one quick squirt) and in a sharp voice tell him no.Work on his obedience training...esp the sit with lots of rewards and then ask him to sit when he starts misbehaving...keep a pocket full of goodies on you!
Archer

I'm glad that there is another Briard owner who understands their traits. Yes, I have separated Barney from the children because the situation became very difficult. I appreciate this was not the best course of action, and I am now feeling the consequences. I need to be able to get on top of this beacuse Barney was bought as a family pet and that is what I want him to be. The current situation is no fun for anyone, least of all Barney. We are now letting the children spend more time with Barney and are getting them to ask him to sit and then praise and treat him. He loves the children and vice versa, but he just seems to have no bite inhibition. There have been some very positive ideas suggested and I think that this may all help. When he is in the lounge with us after the children go to bed, he chills and lays at our feet. I am also looking into changing his diet (possibly to BARF) to see if that may help calm him down a bit!

Julia

I have definately found Barf has settled my boys down...
Archer

I did wonder if the BARF diet might be beneficial. I will look into it some more and probably give it a go.

Barney still being v.naughty! Most cross with him today as he managed to reach the back of my work surface, get his face in a pyrex bowl with my dinner (veggie slop!) and smash it all over the floor! :-o Then he proceeded to shake in his cage whilst I hoovered it up (he is terrified of Henry). This is the 3rd time in as many days. He ate my pizza the other day (had lots of onions on it!). He has never done this before. I'm sure I am feeding him enough! Still keeps lunging at me and trying to eat my arm too! Sorry, but I'm having a bad day.

Julia

We all get bad days with boisterous youngsters - you have my sympathy.

It is best to manage some of these situations because most dogs when teenagers will try to get to food on counters etc. One way is to keep all food right away and once past teenagerhood, the youngsters just don't attempt it any more. If they do manage to get stuff, they will keep trying. I used a childgate to keep my dog out of the kitchen if I couldn't supervise, a friend would just put everything away.

Be careful of putting him in the cage is he is very scared of Henry as he may associate being in his crate with being afraid and that will be another problem.

If you're in to books, i recommend reading "The Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson because it really helps people understand why dogs do what they do.

Personally i would get in  a reputable trainer who can help you :)

Lindsay
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Hi Julia,

Following on from the BARF thread.

Is barney black? Because if he is, you will find that the grey and white patches usually get bigger as they get older, not dramatically so, but they do seem to grow slightly, they look like little old men at a relatively young age :D Murf is fawn, and as you probably know, they change colour every day, especially when young, even now he can look very grey one day and more gingery the next. Its just the way their coats develop. ;) It's nothing to worry about.

Murfee at 6 months was a complete nightmare and I questioned myself more than once on my training procedures and the sane reasoning of mine to get a Briard in the first place :rolleyes: Consistency will win the day.  But as you have been told, it does get better, DO NOT PANICK :D Lots of mental stimulation like playing with other dogs (bullying my poor GSD) lead walking in town, swimming in the sea, teaching recall on the beach, romping through the fields and stuffed Kongs got us through. I worked on the assumption that the more tired he was the less likely he would behave like a moron. He still gets moronic moments and is a complete thug, he tends to listen to me more now though as he has gone through all the chemical brain changes that they have to go through to become balanced and relatively normal......well for a Briard anyway :D  Bear in mind, they are incredibly slow to mature and take much longer than a lot of other breeds, Murf will always be an eternal pup.

I totally identify and sympathise with you on the nipping, its not funny, it hurts and you cannot ignore it. I used to get him to immediately sit, taking him by the beard and pushing the rump down if necessary and rewarded him with a treat and then went on to play with a ball or tugger.(he still loves a tug of war)  If he wouldn't sit I would isolate him for no more than 5 minutes and then try again. It takes time and persistence, above all firmness, but it did work eventually. Distraction is the order of the day.

Good luck, he is just going through his "kevin stage", it will last until 18 monthish, but it will be worth it in the end. Only another a Briard owner will understand all of what we go through to get the most wonderful dogs. Must admit though, I don't like them when they're young, says me who is seriously considering another one this year :D :)

Last night I spoke to a pet behaviourist (from the APBC). I explained Barney's behaviour to her and she gave me some tips. She said that his behaviour is obviously a problem that needs sorting or else we could get into trouble. She said that we need to get a supply of nylabones (or similar) and smear them with marmite, cheese spread or peanut butter, and every time he goes to mouth, stick one in his mouth. She also said that when he starts chewing it to give him lots of praise. It is beyond me how we got to this stage :-o , but reading the posts of others we are not alone! She also said that (as I well know) consistency is the key; it must be 100% or we might as well not bother. It seems as though it will take about six weeks to hopefully solve the problem, and during that time he will be going to his new obedience class which should help. The trainer has said that she will tailor the classes to meet everyones needs and cover all our issues over the six week period. Thought I would let you all know how I am getting on, and also be able to pass this advice onto others in similar situations. Lastly, when the going gets tough I can come back and read this to remind me what I am supposed to be doing :-o ! Will keep you all informed and thanks for your advice.

Aha yes - the redirecting onto other toys - which is what Lyndsey suggested on the 8th.......

Hi Julia,

pleased that you have had some more advice. I would say that 6 weeks is the absolute minimum it will take to see some real changes :)

Nylabone is a good choice of toy, Murf has been through two Galileos and we are now on the Rhino. Distraction alway seems to work well. ;)

I have already been implementing the distraction and redirection as Lindsay suggested, which has been working relatively well, but is too soon to say. The behaviourist I spoke to last night returned my call from 23rd December (I have been waiting that long to speak to her), she works along side Oscar Pet foods and was recommended by my supplier. I thought I would let everyone know how I was getting on.

Julia