im looking for a flat coat pup and am looking for a good liver pup.why can you get very dark flat coats in liver and very light flat coats and those  supposed to be black but have a very brown look through them.  does it show more if both parents are from mixed colour?
also to prevent this washed look i am i better to seek a flat coat pup from true liver parentage?
are there any good breeders you can recommend who will produce good strong definite liver pups?

If you call Mrs Johnson on 01638 718231 she is the Society litter Secretary and will be able to help you.

In my experience you are likely to get a darker liver if one or both parents are black.  If both parents are black both have to carry the liver gene.

Becky

becky
my roseberri jet had 3 pearnet that were liver and he had a very dark liver coat.
my glenturret snow blerone dan was black with the liver gene and the sire was liver,she to is a nice liver colour too
then i put brie to rush both liver(the two dog above] the result was chase,who,s liver plus the other 8,of that litter all were very dark liver, who both dam and sire were liver,3 of his granpearnets were liver 1 black and chase is a very nice colour,but then i know of both black who carry the liver gene and the livers are light.

one thing with livers they do go lighter in the summer months,the best time for a liver is oct to june before the sun bleachs their coat,again with mine  i have been lucky not gone to light in the summer months and swimming can ligth the coat too.
i will do liver to liver again with brie hopfully in may 2005.

terri

I don't dispute that you can get dark liver from a liver to liver mating but there is a risk that by continually doing liver to liver over many generations that it might lighten as the generations go on.

Three of the best livers I ever saw were Ch Paddiswood Burnt Lobelia (dam of Fossdyke Bronze Justin), Ch Belsud Brown Guillemot (back in the 1980s) and a Field Trial dog called Balsam Luke who was by Mischa of Puddington x Wemdon Barton Lass.  They made todays livers look pale in comparison.  To be honest I don't think the livers today compared to those of 25 years ago are as dark in colour.

Becky

We've done a liver to liver mating, but made quite sure all the livers that we knew in the pedigree were a lovely rich 'conker' colour.   All the pups inherited a good colour, and they don't bleach in the sun.   They do, however, have a shorter coat than other livers , but that's not necessarily a bad thing.  

I doubt that our present mating of black carrying liver x black carrying liver will give a darker colour than our own liver to liver, but time will tell.

I think that if the genes are there for a darker colour, there is no reason that it should be diluted, but so many folk that have been breeding livers for longer than I have will tell you it's wiser to mate black carrying liver to liver.

Think I wouldn't intentionally risk Providence by repeated mating liver x liver.

However, it must be emphasised that we never, ever breed for colour as the main feature - other factors which are more essential for a well-balanced working dog are more important.

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

if i do liver to liver again i will make shaw that the next genation will go back to a black carring liver,

like jo i donot breed for colour ,temperment first,but i do like to keep a liver fcr with my blacks,
becky the first two dog you wrote about are in my lines,but i did see fossdke bronze justin,but not paddiswood burnt lobelia what i have heard she was very petty bitch.

Becky -  that's interesting that you should pick out those as the best livers you have seen - by co-incidence, they are the dogs that I had checked on colour , and are all in Gordon's pedigree!

Great minds think alike????? :-)

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

I must say I like Gordon, (He says, poking his nose into Flatcoats again!) I never saw you at training Sunday Jo. I was hoping to see "Our Albert" again!

Best wishes, John

Hi John

I do appreciate you being an honorary flatcoat!   Young Albert is a very bright spark now - he did come on Sunday - first day on lead - no problem.   He starts Nursery school with Lynn Irwin next Tuesday!  He'll no doubt take his stick with a horse's head handle!

Now he's got a double cross to Belsud Brown Guillemot, one to Paddiswood Burnt Lobelia,  and one to Balsan Luke's sister Lilith Leaf (try saying that three times quickly!!).   And he's one yummy colour!    But that wasn't why I have him - it's the female line (to Mr Mustard Seed's sister).

Incidententally, Becky, there are some cracking colours in quite a few of today's livers - you must have blinked at the wrong moment!

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

john .guess who may be turn up for march training  day,

Would love to see you there Teri!

Best wishes, John

it be andrew with baby blue or brie.

It will be nice to see Andrew again Terri. I look forward to it. :)

Best wishes, John

PS. If he decides to come a month early, in February, because of the AGM on the same day we will not be at Windsor but at the Hall Barn Estate in Beaconsfield.

Well there you are Jo - Balsan Luke was so dark that I thought he was black when he stood in the shadows.

I agree that some of the livers around are not too bad but when you compare them overall to those 25 years ago then they are not nearly as good.

If I had not seen the dogs I did then I would probably accept those that are around now as OK!

Becky

I see you are looking for a "good liver pup", I think I would put temperament and good health before colour. Do contact Mrs Johnson as she will advise you.