I have never been interested in having my girl mated before and would like to know the 1st steps for going about letting her have a litter

Number one, you don't LET a bitch have a litter, you plan it.

If you have never been interested why are you now? It sounds as if someone has been filling you up with stories about "A bitch should have a litter." or "A little will quieten her down." Both of these stories are rubbish.

If you genuinely want her to have a litter then she needs to be of the right age, a good specimen of her breed, had all the health checks relating to that breed done (Which means she needs to be KC registered) and you need to know enough about the line that she's from to be able to find a compatible stud dog who would compliment her.

Regards, John

Dear John
Sorry to get you so worked up I do not intend to just let my dog have pups thats why I asked for info.  She is a very good pedigree KC reg 3 years old.  As she is well looked after and well trained she does not need calming down everybody loves her and says they have not seen such a happy dog before.  We waited 2 years for her and as my older dog has died I would love another dog in our lives my brother and sister both live local and are interested in one of her puppies should I go ahead and PLAN her breading.
However when we bought her we did not intend her to have puppies so I did not think about contacting the breeder who we obtained our dog from.

I have email contact about 2 - 3 times a year and have now contacted the Breeder for this information.  Thank you for your concern

Hi Gracie! The trouble with breeding is that it isn't simple! I have two dogs from the same litter (so their pedigrees are identical) and one is suitable for breeding from and the other is most emphatically not! Every puppy from a litter will be different although their parents are the same; at most, 1 in 10 pedigree puppies is suitable breeding material. We all think (or should) our own dogs are the best ones in the world, but very few of us are right (I'm probably not!). There are too many unwanted dogs in the world without being very certain you're not adding to the number.
:)

Hi folks - I'm a little confused by Jeangenie's statement that she has two pups from the same littter - but only one is suitable for breeding from - surely they would be genetically identical :D so if one is unsuitable then then other must be ( and vice versa ) - or am I missing something here

Yvonne

Genetics are only part of the story Yvonne - one of the reasons why breeding is so complicated and should be undertaken lightly.
Over the years, I have kept 2 bitches with the same genes - same sire but two dams were from seperate litters.  The original (excellent) mating and the second from a repeat mating, which didn't produce the same quality but I kept the best bitch.  I mated the 2nd (not so good) bitch to an excellent typy dog because everyone said - with hindsight I should have stuck to my own beliefs - she carried such good bloodlines that she would produce.  She was a good all round bitch, with no major faults, but failed in expression for me.  She produced a litter of healthy, happy, good tempered puppies, but nothing IMO good enough to show and breed on from.  I was fortunate to have a waiting list of families waiting for pet puppies with the temperament that all my dogs carry but I didn't take the line any further and the bitch lives a (wonderful!!) life with my daughter.
The second (beautiful) bitch was mated to the same dog and produced a wonderful litter.  I was spoilt for choice for one to keep, and that bitch in turn has gone on to produce a quality litter herself.
So you see a dog may have a "wonderful pedigree" as  we hear many times, but that doesn't mean it's good enough to breed from.  As always, I'm sure that there is an expection to every rule but I believe we should only be breeding from the best available.  It was after that experience that I started to endorse my pedigrees.

Sorry I've had a clear out and have lost my smiley list!!

No, Trevor, siblings are only genetically identical if they are from the same egg which has split (as in identical twins).  

In a litter of pups you have more or less random selection of any of the alternative alleles which the two parents carry themselves, so you can get a pretty wide variety of pups .

Hence the need for a caring breeder to research a pedigree for as many generations as possible so that they can understand the variety of type which is possible to emerge from a given mating.    One always has a 'blueprint' in mind to breed to, and the art of breeding is to select individuals whose pedigree fits that 'blueprint' as closely as possible.     In the case of working dogs, we have to assess not only beauty, but also brains!!

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

Hi folks - I'm a little confused by Jeangenie's statement that she has two pups from the same littter - but only one is suitable for breeding from - surely they would be genetically identical  so if one is unsuitable then then other must be ( and vice versa ) - or am I missing something here

If this was the case all puppies would look alike in every litter-so my beardies would have had only one colour etc instead one bitch produced 5 of the colours black, blue, brown. slate & fawn(no tris tho'), even in blenheilm cavaliers the markings are all different

For a start they get one chromosome from each parent for each trait, but as both parents have two copies of each chromosome there are different combinations of chromosomes the puppies will inherit hence the difference in both appearance & genetic make up of the offspring

Sorry Yvonne, look at it this way. If a bitch with a hereditary problem is mated to a dog without, roughly half will be carriers but roughly half will be clear! Very simply, the puppies inherit two sets of genes, one from the sire and the other from the dam (But which set? It could be the affected set or it could be the unaffected set.) Does that make it any clearer? Just as in the case of hereditary problems so in everything else. All aspects of the dog is carried within the DNA, appearance no less than anything else.

Don't worry Gracie, I'm  not in the least worked up. If you like to read your original post you will see why I said what I did. The thing about boards are that it is "Word Specific". We have nothing else to go on! Facial expression and the like, which we use to a great extent in face to face conversation are missing so we only have the written word to go on. Hence, when you spoke of "letting her have a litter" I was quite justified in my reply, "Number one, you don't LET a bitch have a litter, you plan it."

Regards, John

Yvonne, pups in a litter are no more genetically alike than a person and their own brothers and sisters - the parents are the same, but they all inherit different characteristics.
:)

Too late to add - if all the puppies in a litter were genetically identical, they would all be the same colour and same sex, for a start!
:)

Think cloning is when they`re all genetically the same. Anyone read they`ve done it with a cat now???

Christine, Spain.

Hmm - does this mean that if one litter mate has epilepsy ( or some other 'fault') and the other does not, it is ok to breed from the one who is not showing signs of epilepsy ? - surely the gene for epilepsy (or indeed any other characteristic )could still be carried  and passed on by BOTH

If siblings did not share common genetic features then what would be the point in line breeding or avoiding certain lines to correct 'faults'. I do understand that all pups have a different mix from the genetic material they inherit but a litter will surely share many characteristics and I just question how one can be good enough to breed from and the other not when the pups produced from the 'inferior' bitch may well inherit many of the 'good' genes .

Yvonne

Answer, Yes, you could breed, but only if you know for sure that the dog concerned is not a carrier. And there is the rub. At present the only way to be sure is with a dna test, and only a few conditions have a dna test at the moment. Even then, you need to be sure that the dna test is accurate, and even this is by no means certain at the moment. So the real answer is no, not till we are rather better at testing than we are at the present.

As to line breeding from two related but dis-similar dogs, you are hoping that both carry the gene you want. That the dog which does not look the way you want still actually carries the gene but as a recessive. (In the other set of genes which the dog inherited from sire and dam.) You know the gene in in the line of the other dog would not look that way.

Clear?

Regards, John

Ther pups cannot express the genes that the parent doesn't have.  So the littermate that does not exhibit a dominat trait cannot pass it on to it's offspring.  Some traits have to have two copies of the gene in order to be expressed as they are recesssive, and the vast majority of health issues are carried this way, as obviously no one in their right mind would breed for a dog with an obvious health problem, so dominat faults are much easier to eliminate in a breeding program unless the problem is very late in onset.

Dogs that carry a problem are not in themselves a problem unless mated to another carrier where the chances are that 1 in four of It's offspring witll be affected by whatever problem.  So if it is something that can be DNA tested to determine carriers, then there is no reason not to use them for breeding to clear partners.  Sadly this testing is available/reliable in very few cases.  So when an affected turns up in a litter the breeder may have littermates or decendants that are fine, who may be clear, may be carriers, but with no way of knowing which they have will be in a quandary.  If they use their unaffected superior dog and it turns out to be a carrier (only possiboe totell if mated to another known carrier) then they will be risking producing pups with problems, or of course producing more carriers, but of course the breed might well not be in a position to loose potential breeding stock limiting the gene pool further.  They also might be disregarding totally clear dogs, with no way to twll, unless they test mated to a known carrier.  This used to happen years ago when a whole litter could be kept by a breeder to prove things one way or another, and the affecteds carriers would usually have been put to sleep.  People aren't prepared to do this nowadays, or have the time or facilities to do so.

You can very easily have a poor specimin in a litter along with the champions, that is what selective breeding is all about, only breeding from those with the required characteristics.

My Champion bitch came from a large3 litter which arguably was the best I had ever bred, but there were still two that I would not consider breeding quality.

"So the littermate that does not exhibit a dominant trait cannot pass it on to it's offspring. "

Not true - from our last litter of 3 generations clear Groenendael we had a Grey Terv ! - Great Great Great Grandad on the stud dogs side was a Grey but nothing for three generations prior to our little girl. 

Siblings within a litter can pass on characteristics that they do not show themselves - as John says, the only way of being sure is to DNA test

Yvonne

Not all traits are dominant, Yvonne. The recessive gene (liver colouration) carried by the stud dog I used had come through 5 generations without showing itself. But mated to a liver it came out.

A dominant trait will be exhibited.
:)

That sounds like a recessive gene to me Yvonne.

they can lay dormant for generations and then surface when you least expect it.

LOL JG you must have been editing whilst I typed.

:D

Siblings within a litter can pass on characteristics that they do not show themselves Surely that's because it is caused by a recessive gene, not a dominant gene?

Which shows why it is so important to know as many dogs as possible behind the sire and the dam.  Mixing with other people who show/work/obedience/agility train their dogs is one of the best ways of doing this, but can still take many years to put the jigsaw together, made easier if you have an experienced mentor (oldie ;)) to help guide you!
That's why we prattle on about showing/working before owners consider breeding from their pets.  These places are where much knowledge is - the stuff that you really should know about before producing puppies.
Having said that, there are, of course, some people who go to these events who have no understanding of such things.  I remember an oldie saying to me many years ago, as she pointed to an 'old exhibitor', "She's been at it for 20 years and has got 1 year's worth of knowledge.  But he's been in it for 1 year and got 20 years worth of knowledge. HE listens!!"

I spent 13 years with my GSDs before I bred my first & only litter ! & took advice from a very experienced breeder/judge/SV member in doing so & my two litters of beardies were planned years beforehand(even had to revise one as the chosen stud wasn't available)My bitches produced sound healthy puppies which were typical of the breed & an improvement on the parents. None were by the current top CH or Stud dogs but those which matched the bitches pedigree & faults etc

Now people get a bitch(or sometimes a dog) & then the opposite sex let the two mate & lo & behold a litter & a new breeder of course if the health tests haven't been done the breeding is accidental of course ;)

To make it clearer: in my breed (and I think in most) black is dominant to liver. However, there are two genetic types of black, which are indistinguishable visibly. One is where there has never been a liver gene put in the mix, and the dog is 'pure' for black. If at some stage a black has been mated to a liver, then all those pups will carry the recessive liver gene, but in the first generation all the pups will be black. If one of those externally-black pups is mated to a liver (or another black 'carrying' liver) then the litter will probably be mixed; some pups will be black and others liver.

A liver mated to a liver will only give liver pups, because neither parent has the dominant gene for black.

In GSDs it is much more complicated

Black is recessive to all colours but white ! & Gray(with sable markings)is dominant ! in between there are all the other colour variations !

Black & any one of Tan/Gold/Red/Grey/White with or without a darker saddle ! The bicolour which on a whole are mainly black with tan feet & facial marking(a bit like a dobe or rottie) the list is almost endless

The parents bith would have been carrying Terv colouration as a recessive trait, so you got your grey.  Now in Belgians you can often get this, but the other way around (Terv parents producing blacks) only happens if they both carry recessive black, as there is the dominant and recessive form in the breed.

Think about a human couple who have a child with a hereditary condition, such as Cystic Fibrosis. To have a child with the condition, both parents have to be carriers, without necessarily having the condition. Statistically, if they have 4 children, one will be a sufferer, two will be unaffected carriers, and one will be genetically free of the condition.

With canine epilepsy you would certainly never breed from an affected animal (and you would never repeat the mating that produced that animal), but the littermates might well be completely unaffected.

Jeangenie,
You make it sound so simple and so it is for black/ liver colour as this is an example of the simplest form of heridity.
It gets comlicated when incomplete dominance (eg merle gene) is involved and mimic genes, sex limited expression and so on. One would need a degree in genetics to understand 1/2 of the information out there.
Studying pedigrees is helpful up to a point.
Amos

Yep, studying pedigrees is important, but a pedigree is only a collection of names. To me Knowing each dog and as many of each litter as possible is what understanding my breed is about.

You're right, Amos, I was making it as straightforward as possible, to explain to Yvonne why each puppy in a litter will have inherited different genes from all the others, without throwing in the lemon/orange variations, eye colour, hearing etc as well.

:D I can confirm that letting a bitch have a litter definately does NOT calm her down....

I have a Boxer bitch who is just over 6 1/2 years old now, she'll be 7 y.o. in May.
She was 3 y.o. when mated and she is still as mad as a hatter now, infact the other thing to
note is she is now more 'maternal' and protective of her daughter and the distant cousin
that we have at home.

We've all had to start somewhere when breeding - But it is important to have a good mentor that
will be willing to pass on what they have learned & experienced and who knows all the pitfalls etc of breeding.
If they know your pedigree lines inside out and can advise you on suitable pedigree lines/health tested studs so much the better.
It is also important to know what health checks need to be done before you consider breeding from your bitch.
This can vary from breed to breed.

In the nearly 15/16 years that I have been involved with my breed the Boxer (I have been showing them for this long too)
I have been lucky to have a few good mentors, learned all about pedigrees, lucky enough to have known in the flesh most of the bitch line.
Seen most of the dogs in the show ring etc etc. In all this time I have only bred one litter myself - again after much thought and
planning. It was one hell of an emotional rollercoaster ride and although very rewarding it is far easier to buy a puppy in
than breed it yourself. It is also much cheaper to buy a puppy in too - I think in the end I made about a £1500 loss after all
the outgoings etc of my first litter were totalled up, so at that time my £500 puppy cost me £1500, I only bred the litter because I wanted a puppy myself which would hopefully be good enough to show (both the dam and sire of pups were successfully shown). This pup is now
3 y.o. and will be at Crufts 2005.
Next time around and said pup is now nearly a year old - I co own her with her breeder (and one of my good mentors).
It was SO much easier and less stressful having a puppy to bring home rather than be the 'breeder' :D

Whatever you decide I wish you the best of luck and if you do decide to go for it I hope you find a good 'breed' mentor
to help avoid the pitfalls and if necessary a shoulder to cry on or ears to bend with countless questions.
:)
Kirstine

Hi guest why dont you join the forum, then you can ask more ???s.

Did you buy your bitch from a knowledgeable reputable breeder? If so he/she is the person you should ask. If not, the chances are your bitch is not really good enough to be bred from. Join your breed club for more breed information, like which health checks are necessary before breeding, the best age to breed & what points to look for in a sire.. Most importantly, ask yourself WHY you want to breed.

Hello Anwen
Thank you for you helpfull suggestions it is hard to know where to start I read a lot of books but they dont tell you everything.
We thought about having another dog for 7 years after one of our labs died when we made up our minds it took us another 2 years to get her.
Now our other lab has died both 17 years old and never been mated we have been thinking about having a litter to keep 1 or maybe even 2, my brother and my sister would both love one of her puppies should we go ahead. 
I have now had contact with her breeder who is interested in assisting us in any way and as much as possible.   But chances are the amount of time we take to dacide on anything she will be too old by then but I am happy to recieve all the info I can thanks again.

Hi Polly
thanks for the suggestions I joined the forum but still do not know if we will have puppies or not its a lot to think about

Hi Gracie, you might want to have a read of this- based on Cockers, but the theory of it applies to all breeds and covers some of the things you'll have to consider when thinking about breeding from your bitch.  Hope that helps :)

Very good link, maybe this post should gop along with the post in breeding about using the pet dog at stud?

It's by the same author as the one on studding dogs, in fact that article also appears on the Cockers Online forum.  I'm not sure how frequently she posts here to be able to ask her permission to reproduce it, but I think it would be helpful to have an informative piece on this site where we could direct those looking for information on breeding from their bitch.

They're both my articles - if Admin wants to add a link to the Breeding one, it would be fine by me :-)

Jane