Even my youngest most independant elkhound races back to check I am still thre befroe resuming her adventyres, and comes straight back if I show that i have no intention of waiting on her pleasure. the older 3 basically keep within a 40 feet radiuys, xcept for the odd run into the woods to check something and then back again! If I stop to chat or sit down they will all be back mooching around in a circle!

Toodles.
I just think that breeds should not be altered to suit pet needs. If I wanted a cute, cuddly, v.friendly family pet dog, I would probably get a Cavalier, I would not want a Border Terrier that had been bred over generations, not to show breed instict and natural ability because if I did, and all these breeds had been altered to suit domestic situations, I could basically choose any breed. Pick what colour, size and coat type I wanted and there we go, if all our breeds' natural instinct had gone, pedigree dogs would be all the same.

My dogs are brilliant workers, but they are also superb family pets, get on excellently with the cats and the ferrets and two of them are pat dogs. This is what I came to understand of the breed through research before having one, and knowing this I chose a Border over a Patterdale or a working type Lakie, because their temperament is more suited to me and my needs. Maybe all those years ago if I didn't have cats or other pets I would have got a Patterdale because I had no other considerations. I just think this is what pedigree dogs are all about.
Dawn.

Hi Dawn,
I only recently heard about Patterdales on this board & investigated them. They fit the size I prefer ( it's difficult finding breeds between 10-20 pounds). Unless I went to the UK, I'd never even have a chance to see one. I don't think that it would fit my lifestyle unless I had lots of room for it to investigate & track critters.

I see your point...but I'm not as extreme as you are on it. Personally, I believe that there can exist two lines of the same breed -- one for working, one for showing & living in homes. It just depends on the temperament. I've seen it with Labs, Brittanys (working doesn't look anything like the show breeds) and other gundog breeds... what would be so terrible about doing it with terriers?

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate terriers for their independence & hunting skills. Samma kept my house mice free in NM. I didn't have to worry about Hanta disease, unlike others in my area. But she's also easy going, naturally adores children, & mellowing out with age.
And yes, she'll bark...but not habitually. I believe that's more of circumstances than of breeding. :)
toodles

And what happens when working with dogs is banned?

Hi Bec,
Not sure what you're getting at that will be outlawed? Working what dogs? Hunting, police, agility, obedience, fighting (hopefully we're out of that arena), guide & service, therapy, rescue, herding or any other purpose?

Or are you trying to say that eventually the fanatical individuals of PETA will win out and NO one will have a dog? Egads, I hope not. I'd actually have to start liking people

Personally, I think that with 5+ billion people in the world, of which 285 million are Americans, 60+ million are British.... I don't see working dog ownership in any danger of becoming extinct. I think that breeders have choices that we are onesidedly leaving out. I think there's room for all of us fanciers here on this lonely planet :)

As long as there's people, dogs will continue to carve their niche & be our ever faithful companions.... unless the cats have their way :D :D
toodles

In UK the cats have already won. theyare the number one favourite pet, and that I assume does not take into account feral ones!

At the moment the government are very likely to pass a hunting with dogs bill. the media have hyped it up as an anti fox hunting bill, but it will actually cover all dogs that hunt any mammal! Also if suspected of hunting with a dog, they will be able to confiscate your dog and equipment, and the burdenof proof will lie with proving your dog was not hunting.

My dogs chase squirrels in the country Park, have never caught one, and the main squirrel chaser would not harm the animal once caught. she frequently brings tenderly to hand fledglings that are unable to get airborne!

In the States, Cats also have the edge on dogs..but that's lies, damn lies, & statistics to argue with :D I did like the cute film "Cats & Dogs" :D

I've been following along on the board about this ban on hunting--- one of those things that since I'm not British, I don't really have the right to comment on your country's doings. That said, I do have the feeling that it'll fit right in with the DDA and be more problems for dog owners. Again, since I'm not British.... but I do wonder why all British dog owners don't unite against the DDA & this new act and show some muscle. Talk about a force to be reckoned with, especially in the polls & economic arena.
toodles

I think Bec might have meant hunting with dogs. (am I right Bec?) If it is banned, I shudder to think of the needless waste of lives that will be destroyed. Foxhounds primarilly, but so much more will be lost. I try not to think about it much, but I do love the English countryside for what we have made it, not what it may become.
I know it is an emotive debate and I don't want arguments, but it is nice to be able to listen to eveyones views on hundreds of subjects, from this and other countries.
Dawn

I don't approve of a breed being divided into either "working type" or "show/pet" type.

Man has changed the Dog through centuries to fit his needs, this is why we have the breeds we now know and love. Many breeds or types have come and gone over the centuries.

Any person wanting to own a particular breed should be aware of it's original purpose, and main breed character traits. This will enable the owner to provide the dog with the correct training. My breed for instance beyond puppyhood are not natural retrievers. Taking a ball to occupy them on a walk is pointless, I have tried and just loose them. They need to be a ble to Mooch about savouring the scents in the woods, as that is their nature, so I just ensure that they get let off thelead where this will not cause a problem.

Most dog owners are not doggy Professionals capable of handling a highly work motivated example of any breed though, but breeders have no right to completely breed out these traits!! That is why I have nothing against breeders having different selection criteria, depending on what their dogs lives are likely to be.

Show Trial Labs, are probably different from the average Working Lab bred on a shooting estate to be trained to help guests out on shooting days, The guide dogs for the Blind will have even different Criteraia, as will the show breederws. All Labs though should still be capable of Retrieving.

God save us from the day when every dog would be a dumb placid beast that only looks like its breed, but has exactly the same basic nature as the next breed!!!

brainless

Good point!

Julieann

Ok, I'm going down the page, just so our columns get big again & I can read them......
Sam, I can understand how you don't like the idea of breed temperment splitting between the Working & showing/pet divisions. It doesn't necessarily have to be that formal. I was making a point that there's room enough for everyone's opinion in this matter.

But regardless of how you or I feel about the subject of "splitting," it has been happening for decades in certain breeds within the US and quite likely within UK & Europe. Are those Border Collies who work sheep herds daily on the farms siblings of those who are family pets in London? I don't think so. There has to be some difference between the two just for happiness & liveability.
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On the other subject, the one that seems to be wanting to pass a law against dogs hunting (or however worded)..... I'm just so confused on why the dog people haven't organized their own "propaganda" for public content through the media. Sure, you all might not agree with one another on whether or not it is good to hunt, but it seems that everyone basically agrees that the wording & the intent of this law will overall hurt dogs & their owners.

Perhaps, it might be easier to look at it like one of the lobbies in the US (lord, I can't stand them either, but they are powerful).... No matter how moderate an individual's opinion might be towards the ownership of guns, each law is a small step to outlaw the Constitutional right to have guns for hunting, self-protection, target practice, whatever. Therefore, banding together within a group to fight this incursion is much more powerful & effective than complaining & accepting it as a done deal.

Looking at it like this, a dog owner who loathes the idea of actual hunting could belong to the "movement" from this standpoint...... Each law made by the government that encroaches on any aspect of dog ownership, one day will effect me, my life, and my own views of dog ownership. Those who make these laws are wrong and eventually wish to make dogs outlawed in the UK. You might squabble within yourselves... such as this attitude on pure working breeds vs. adapting breeds to modern homelife, but like a family, you would be united against the outsiders who wish to force their opinionated laws on you.

Anyway, don't mean to natter on like this..... just how I would attempt to begin to stop this stupid law from passing [$ uniting a loose partnership among dog owners. :D If you don't like it, just ignore me ]) I've always wanted a "cause" to fight for, but at the moment, there isn't too much around me that I could battle against :D
toodles

Sorry toodles but most farmers that have working sheepdogs do sell puppies that go to good old pet homes thats how so many end up in rescue.However its how i also gained my start in border collies and I still have my adorable manic worker:D.Gillian