re flat coated retriever
my flat coat has had her eyes tested and was clear, also received a hip score of 10 which is average for the breed,my dog also received clear eyes and hip score of 6,  the breeder of my bitch has lifted the endorsements before this mating happened as did the breeder of my dog. my dogs are well cared for and accidents do happen my bitches breeder was fully understanding of what happened and has had it happen herself,  she agreed if the bitch is of mature mind and body there shouldnt be a problem and my flat coat is.  another point i discussed with her was if my bitch is cycling every 4 months its unfair on her to wait till season 9 or 10 before mating her,  its happened earlier than id planned but with the breeders advice i decided to continue with her "pregnancy", if she has missed my bitch wont be mated until late next year early next.  im sure im not the first this has happened to and if i had any doubts about the readiness of motherhood for my bitch i would have had the litter annulled but since she has proved a mature bitch at 18 months i proceeded. i did take your comments on board and thanks.

The breeder of your bitch is not an experienced Flatcoat breeder.  Indeed, the dam of your bitch was only 16 months old herself when she had the litter from which you purchased your bitch.  Also by my reckoning if your bitch had had 3 seasons you would have only had to wait for another 1 or 2 before mating her. 

Therefore I am afraid that her advice - in my opinion - is invalid.

I have an 18 month old bitch who is well looked after and well developed BUT that is not an excuse for breeding at under 2 years.

I am sorry but it is this sort of indescriminate breeding that brings problems into the breed.

Becky

i understand what your saying and i appreciate your opinions,  if my bitch doesnt turn out to be pregnant i am going to wait till late 2005,  im just starting out as a breeder and you get contradicting advice from all sides,  i understand that i possibly shouldve had the bitches suspect litter anulled but i did ask advice of other breeders who said its not uncommon for it to happen.  when usually in most cases should you take a first litter?

The general recommendation is 2 1/2 years old for the first litter and you should leave 18 months between litters.

From a personal point of view we never (or very rarely depending on how many puppies the bitch had had) have more than 2 litters per dog.

Breeding is a science not just a case of mating your dog to your bitch.  For example - does your bitch and dog for that matter  conform to the breed standard - have you shown them or at least taken an opinion from a reputable Ch Show Judge as to the quality.   You should breed to improve the breed and NOT to line your pockets.  Is your dog's pedigree compatible with your bitch's pedigree.  Does the conformation of the dog compliment that of the bitch.

I am sorry to bang on but I really do feel very strongly about the protection of our breed.  My mother is the society litter secretary and the number of calls she gets from people saying they are expecting puppies and then we find out that the breeding is virtually unheard of and that the "breeder" has done it because "its nice for the children" - not that they are trying to improve what they have or anything logical like that - and when she asks them if they have read the breed standard they have never even heard of it.  i am not suggesting that you are one of these but you might understand my concerns this way.

And then - there are people who just let their "stud dogs" out to any bitch that happens to come that way.  Often people have used this dog because it is the nearest.  Having travelled a 500 mile round trip more than once to use a stud dog I am rather scathing of people who think they can just use the dog down the road because it is convenient.

Also what happens if your bitch has 10 puppies - all dogs?  Have you thought how you are going to sell them?  OK there is a reasonably high demand for Flatcoats BUT again people do not want to have to travel hundreds of miles.  there is one thing selling puppies from proven stock but quite another when people have not even heard of the breeding.  OK - lots of people just want a pet but they like a well bred pet.  You could be stuck with these puppies until they are 5 months old - believe me I have seen it happen.

Becky

i have had both my dog and bitch assesed by experienced breeders in the flat coat world,  i am not  in it for the money as you said but to encourage the breed under the guidance of fellow breeders i have met, everyone needs to start somewhere in any breed and it was unfortunate my dog caught my bitch as they are always apart during her seasons.  my pedigrees for both dogs work well and i did try my best with help and advice to make sure of this,  ive done a lot of research into the breed and i was only posting my questions as a way to speak to other opinions in the breed. and if people really wanted and understood what a flat coat is they would be prepared to travel and wait, i know i did!

I did NOT actually say you did it for money.  What I said was that breeding should be done to improve the breed and not line one's pockets.  I can appreciate you maybe thought that that was what I was suggesting you had done but I think you will find that there are a lot of people who breed purely for money.  Commerical breeding is very frowned upon in Flatcoats.

I also appreciate that we all start somewhere - BUT it is normally recommended that you go out and prove your dogs worth either in the show ring or in Field Trials or Working Tests.  Otherwise - what is there to recommend them?

Becky

the sheer joy of any breed is enough,  everyone who breeds doesnt show or work,  i love my dogs for what they are-dogs and a part of my family. their breeding will be a small part of their lives and wont stop them being family members.  i dont have to parade them round a show ring or get them to do field trials.  a good dog is a good dog if you plan to show,breed,work or just as pets its your choice. everyone to their own.
im following the reccomended health checks and my dogs are well cared for, i have taken on board all of your comments and i appreciate your time and advice.
happy new year

everyone who breeds doesnt show or work
I can remember, not so long ago, when that was certainly the case.  That was exactly where everyone gained their knowledge and experience!!  Understanding animal husbandry including when and how to keep dogs together and apart is all part of that learning.
And yes, everyone has to start somewhere!  If we had £1 for everytime that has been said on this board to excuse human error, we'd be wealthy!!  But talking to a few breeders is not a sufficient basis to breed dogs.  Anyone with experience would have told you not to buy a dog but to take your bitch to the most suitable dog for her in the country.  Unfortunately in these times, everyone thinks that they are entitled to do whatever they want, without taking responsibilty for their actions.

Quote 'the sheer joy of any breed is enough'

Oh Stuart, if only it were as straightforward as that...........

In every pedigree there are problems lurking, I don't care what anybody says otherwise.    You really need to have an in-depth knowledge of your pedigrees for 5 generations at the very least - preferably 10 generations, and the only way to gain this knowledge as a novice breeder is to talk to as many knowledgable people in the breed as you can find, and this is usually done in the chit-chat at shows, working tests, field trials etc.

The art and science of breeding is to keep breed type and temperament, at the same time trying to minimise the risk of any potential genetic defects in the lines you are thinking to breed.

I do think that you were badly advised to purchase a dog of your own - you are surely laying up management problems for yourself in the future, as now he knows what he's up to, he'll keep trying it on for 3 weeks+ every 4 months by the sound of it, and make your life hell.

Actually, thinking about it, if your bitch really has seasons every four months, the chances are that she has cystic ovaries, and may need to be spayed.    Sorry to be a prophet of doom!!

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

jo .brie gos evey 4 1/2 months too.and she had a litter,too,9 in the litter,ok the kc kill them off,but she ok with no problems beteew her season at the moment,
if the bitch has cystic ovaries they are longer in season and give off a smell just like they are in season for a long time,antiontee dunlop bitch  had  cystic ovaries,and this what happen to her when she was 18 months and had to be spayed,
all bitches are different just like humans,do dogs read the text books,stating what they should be doing,no the booksd are just a guided line,

but it is hell having a bitch in season evey 4 months when you got  male dogs as well.

Welcome to the board. I am glad yopu have joined the board as we said perhaps we can help you further.
Regarding litters, most flatcoat breeders do not have a litter from their bitch before she is 3 years old and then the Society ethics say ideally no more than 3 litters during her lifetime. Obviously a litter at this young age will not kill her unless you are unlucky, and I have known biches die while whelping. Owning a dog and a bitch is a huge responsibility, and great care should be taken to ensure that they do not get toegther again, as they have this time. Perhaps you should consider this a lesson well learnt and build into your househld the means of not allowing them to run together.
It is good to hear both the hips and eyes of your dog and bitch are tested, this is an age when puppy buyers can and often will take a breeder to court if they think they have bought a puppy that is not what they expect. There have been cases in other breeds where the breeder had not had his/her stock eye tested or hip scored and the buyers puppy had ended up affected. The courts decided that because the breeder had not had the animals tested prior to breeding they were indeed liable to return the puppy buyers money, plus they had fines and court costs to pay. A few years ago a GSD breder was fined £3,000! Plus had costs and the buyers money returned on top of that.
I would advise you to join the breed Society especially if it is your ambition to breed flatcoats, and take on board the code of ethics most of try to abide by. The welfare of the breed MUST always be put first and foremost. Perhaps you might join the flatcoats@yahoogroups.com message board, where there are many very experienced flatcoated retriever breeders all willing to listen and offer an opinion. As you point out, we all have differing opinions, but the code of ethics are a good guide to work by. It can be confusing, especially when you first start out, so do it right and listen to those with the experience and knowledge, take your time, plan your breeding policies and take your time to learn as much about the breed as possible prior to the next litter.
One final thought, we can appreciate one mistake, but after that it is hard to believe, and certainly if you are going to be a good responsible breeder, you won't make that mistake again.
Good luck with your litter, I hope you'll let us know how you get on with it, we are genuinely interested, and do want to help.

hi stuart

just one thing that no one has stated have you ask both the breeders of the dog/bitch if there been any gentice problem behind them not just hip/eyes tested we all go down that line,other health issue liver and kidney problem,heart murmers,mouth problems too,i can list a whole lots more,i bought in a bitch 7 years ago did all the test,which were great,then she went to a dog with good hips/eyes,puppies were healthy,under till 6 month when 1 of the pup mouths went wronge,the growth plate shut down,went to a top specilist vet,it to long to go into,but it was gentic problem,but who gets the stick the breeder of that pup beacuse it was register in my kennel name,even i bought in the bitch and paid a stud fee i got the problem,so now out of that litter 50% be carries 25% unaffected 25% carries,luck beacuse i have done home work on the dogs i use the bitch has not produced another mouth problem.
so be aware it not just pulling to 2 dogs with good pedgiees and good hip/eyes score,together it the hind problems that the breeders before you do not tell you,and then it comes out in your lines and then its your fault.