Hi Westie Lover
We live in a built up area and our dogs are all walked in public places, they are well socialized and well behaved (sometimes better than kids)
I do a lot of road walking as well with mine which means walking round the estate and they meet all kinds of people and dogs, they take it all in their stride which is more than can be said for a lot of the dogs we meet along the way. There are a couple of dogs just along the road from us who are always stood at the gate when we pass, they go crazy barking and growling and jumping up at the fence. My lot just look up at me as if to say "hey whats all the commotion about" and never make a murmer. (I usually have 6 with me). Then you bump into someone walking a dog on its own who is pulling like mad and they always make the comment "however do you manage all those" I often feel like saying "because my dogs are well trained and know not to pull!" but usually just smile to myself. :)

Gosh that is just like me, people have to stop and comment. Often I get, they must take some work, or aren't they well behaved. I often reply, that I wish it was as easy with the children! I hqave two, daughter 14 1/2 and son 11, give me the dogs any day of the week to take out!

LOL --- very true :D

Don't Worry WL, the growlings stopped and the tail's wagging!

Seriously though, To me anyway, time moves on and what was acceptable behaviour a few years ago is not always acceptable in the modern world. When I was a child it was the norm for dogs to wander at will. The roads were not anything like todays roads. Likewise, although there were plenty of GSD's around , Dobes and Rotties were unknown! Fields were everywhere and walking in the fields was never a problem anywhere except maybe in the middle of towns. Walking a dog very rearly ever meant meeting another dog or for that matter a person!

All that is changed. These days often the only place to walk a dog is in a public park with the attendant certainty of meeting other people and dogs. In most cases the dog is now redundant in the roll for which it was bred. Few true ratters are now used, the shephearding dogs no longer have their original job, The Bull breeds, Fighting breeds, infact about one of the few groups of dogs still to have their original (or nearly original) job is the gundogs.

This is not all that is changing. on the opersite side of the road to me, three houses are being sold. The plan is to pull them down and build 10 houses and a block of 10 flats! With density such at this the thoughts of badly trained attack dogs scares me stiff! Fisty Terriers sparking! Hounds coursing the neibours cat! Where will it end? I'll tell you, someone will shout Dangerous Dogs Act and the next thing we will see is all dogs having to be muzzled!

Could never happen? I hope not but I'm by no means sure! No! I really believe we need to look at the temprament of dogs and maybe look towards breeding some "Natural Traits" out. Thats possibly not a popular thought but if we dont put our house in order then someone else will pass laws to do just that!

Regards, John

Hi John,
I understand what you're talking about. Increasing population density past a certain point does not seem to benefit anyone including pets. :( I've seen houses mowed down to be replaced by track housing cramming people in like rats. We start responding to it also. I'm going nuts at the moment & I didn't realize how much, until I began to write this.

Where I live, here in a townhouse complex, even though I have a long field to look at across the street in the front... I feel pressed in by my neighbors & the continual noise from them. My dogs ARE the ones who bark madly because other dogs are being walked on the lane next to their fence. Actually, they were fine when we first moved here and they were tied out. When we put the fence up, it changed their opinion of other dogs. Fence psychology, who'd have thunked????

I get to the point that I don't care they are barking. Kids are screaming, parents are yelling, loud music is playing constantly, there's a yappy dog that never ever stops all day & all night it barks.... I have trains speeding by the rear of the block, construction in the street, trucks going by, Concrete mixer thudding the mixing going down the street, Airplanes & Helicopters going over head & tonight, being Friday... I get to listen to club goers driving past my window with their basses cranked up from 11pm on. When the club closes at 4:15, the noise will be even worse. I"ll take my allergy meds & knock myself out so I can sleep. Unfortunately, they'll make me woozy for the next 24 hours.

So at least when my dogs are barking....they are making a beautiful sound and voicing my frustration with it all. They have lovely tones & so much nicer than that yappy dog.

Yes, I desperately need a life. If it wasn't pouring rain, I'd head out on a Volksmarch tomorrow morning or down to the border by Bitche & get away from all of the noise.
Thanks for letting me vent. I feel a tad better now :)
toodles

Avaunt, I have read your post, not that it all makes a lot of sense to me as you mentioned, I beleive, your previous dog was a Hillmora and I don't remember them using German dogs so your current Bronco (?) son must be the one you are talking about during your mail?

Panostiteitis - also known as wandering lameness - generally affecting the larger faster growing breeds until they are 12-18 months of age. According to Dr Ian Billinghust in GYPWB is due to inadequate diet, which is quite logical as many vets give calcium injections as well as pain killers and anti inflamatories for it.

Idiopathic Head Tremor - yes I understand this but it does not generally happen all the time - I would suspect some brain or nerve sheath damage if it was continous rather than occasional. Most Dobes affected with this can be trained and live normal lives as the tremor only happens when they are very tired or stressed (physical, mental or environmental)

Hyper - highly strung? Again can be due to diet, environment as well as breeding

High on defence drive with other dogs - you mean he is male aggressive?

Your dog had all these problems (!) so you resorted to static (electric) collar treatment to train him???)

Just don't ever come to me for a dog is all I can reply to this (not that you would anyway) The collars in my opinion are for very serious problems to be used by very experienced dog handlers who have exact timing to make it effective, and there are very few of those. More generally used by those people who just can't be bothered to put the effort in. You have said before that you don't use any treats in training, perhaps you should have tried the treat and/or play method before the collar if you really like your dog

Christine

Its odd you say that kerioak, I was talking to his sires owner a couple of nights ago and he talked about the diet they were on by the breeder, in fact it was one of the first things he came out with.

I just gave him the usual tripe, rice,fish, chicken, seaweed powder, biscuit untill he became allergic to wheat and glutten.

The vets did'nt seem to suspect my diet.

Remember these dogs were 100's miles apart and a lot of them had it,

Plus, come to think of it, they were all below weight for height, he's just about28'' to withers and weighs about 75-78lb on average, should be around 95lb, possibly a bit more, then again it was not an established line.

Avaunt,
There's something that I just haven't been able to understand. You scorn the UK Dobies & their breeders & trainers... yet you own one with all of its defects & even deign to still converse with its sire's owner. It sounds as if this is the second or third that you have owned that had serious problems. So you obviously knew better than to trust a Brit. Don't you practise what you preach?????

I think another factor faced by modern dogs, John, is the need to create socialisation. When we were young(er) dogs hung out with the kids, sat outside the shop when mum went shopping and had enough minor scurmishes with the local dogs to learn how to signal 'not today thankyou'. Dogs now need better temperaments than ever as so many owners do not appreciate the need to recreate all those opportunities to mix with humans and canines that are now missing.

Isabel,
I know one thing that's changed over the years. When my mom was younger, a dog was still a dog no matter what. It knew it's place in the home as a dog. Today, so many I've come across proudly declare their dog is so spoiled, it thinks its human. I usually respond (rather firmly), sorry, your dog knows its a dog, it just thinks that you are funny looking dogs that don't know how to "talk."

To me, this shift in view from "dogs" to "furry people" means that many owners do not know how their dogs are supposed to act or how they actually think. I've heard them yell commands at the dog as if it's a 7 year old child. The concept of "knowing better" comes up a lot in the dog's "misbehavior." A friend was upset because she honestly believed that her dog should "know better than to chase cars." For heaven's sake, why???? She was horrified when I asked her if her dog had ever been hit by one....so why would it associate a car with pain?
toodles

I agree Toodles, the modern dog has a lot to put up with :)

Still, on average, I'd rather be a normal dog in the US or UK, than a woman in Afghanistan or any other third world country :)

Kerioak

>Avaunt, I have read your post, not that it all makes a lot of sense to me as you mentioned, I beleive, your previous >dog was a Hillmora<

No my last dog was not Hillmora, you can check back through wherever you were reading and see what I really said. I know what I said.
My last dog was Black V Faunburg ( VD imp) – Sandimans Avenger (from Posedeiden)
Nothing to do with Hillmora.

[$#61656] Panostiteitis - also known as wandering lameness - generally affecting the larger faster growing breeds until they >are 12-18 months of age.<
[$#61656] According to Dr Ian Billinghust in GYPWB is due to inadequate diet, which is quite logical as many vets give calcium injections as well as pain killers and anti inflamatories for it.

Well I cannot remember the name that’s for sure, but, according to the vet at the time it goes on untill up to 30 months. Ive had in most Dobes for the odd couple of days and not so crippling. Seems that either I wasted money on my vet or you wasted money on a book.
Not sure how Dr Billinghurst accounts for the dogs being hundreds of miles apart.

>. Idiopathic Head Tremor - yes I understand this but it does not generally happen all the time - I would suspect some brain or nerve sheath damage if it was continous rather than occasional.

Idiopathic head tremor is well known, there is no known cause, what I suspect is that you are trying to impress.

> Most Dobes affected with this can be trained and live normal lives as the tremor only happens when they are very tired or stressed (physical, mental or environmental)<

There are no restrictions on living, but, for me I would not take chances on jumps or anything like that the reason is in the name of the condition IDIOPATHIC, they do not know the cause.

There is no detectable pattern

>Hyper - highly strung? Again can be due to diet, environment as well as breeding<

Hyper dobes are not to uncommon, it’s generaly accepted its genetic.

>High on defence drive with other dogs - you mean he is male aggressive?

There are up to 12 forms of aggresion under the fight and flight drive, though most including me generaly split them into 4, I told you high in defence drive, in other words his prey drive has a low threshold if another male is prey focus, quite normal with German dogs.

>Your dog had all these problems (!) so you resorted to static (electric) collar treatment to train him???)

‘Resorted’ you know nothing of them or training but if you ‘think’ you do now is the time to say how they are used and what they really are. Yes I used it on health grounds, the least stressfull and consistant way of training any dog, but now you tell me how they are used, you have commited by implication you know all about them.

What I did NOT do is spray him with a lemon juice collar and make him so frightened he jumped over the bottom of a barn door and into the top.

>Just don't ever come to me for a dog is all I can reply to this
>(not that you would anyway).............. correct.

>The collars in my opinion are for very serious problems to be used by very >experienced dog handlers who have exact timing to make it effective, and there >are very few of those. More generally used by those people who just can't be >bothered to put the effort in. You have said before that you don't use any treats >in training, perhaps you >should have tried the treat and/or play method before >the collar if you really like your dog

You Kerioak breed Dobes, quite healthy Dobes, and the kind of Dobes you like, but thats all you do.

Training is not something you know anything about, if you do, go out and prove it..... which you cannot and never have, don't feel so threatened! I have proven it.

But then you do not know about training, well apart from lemon or mustard spray collars going to the dogs nose, mouth and surplus spary potentially going into the eyes, which I would never use.

Anyway now is your chance to say how E collars are used, obviously no one can comment on something know nothing of, you have commented so go ahead.

I await your desription.

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