Hi! Lets hope I can get my point across in the way I mean.

With Avaunts Posts, and Past discussions with new posters re reasons for, and qualities needed in breeding stock, the need to have proved themselves in some way!

A lot of the jobs most of our breeds, and dogs in general, were developed for, are now redundant. If we are realistic the PRIMARY ROLE of most dogs in the first World, is to be Family Pets!

This is where strict selection for mental and physical characteristics making them suited to their original purpose may actually be undesirable/ilegal!

The bull breeds have had to have their temperaments altered to be less inclined to warfare, or wanting to kill every cow or bull they see.

Some breeds have found an alternative/related purpose to the original, and have had their instincts honed by selective breeding for this purpose.

From what John has written about Working Labradors, some of them are bred to compete and win at Gundog Trials, and these have far too much drive for the average person wanting just a shooting companion!

Avaunt has mentioned the Requirements of Shutzhund, and we have all met those Border collies who astound you with their performance in the Obedience ring with their talented handlers. How many of these dogs are easy to live with?

I am not talking about unrealistic expectations from dog owners who just are not prepared to put some work and time into their dogs.

Owning a thinking independant hunting breed, that has no bonafide hunting outlet in this country, but whose hunting instincts are alive and well as few these days do not have at least a Grandparent from parents proven in the field, am not a person who wanted an easy dog. My first dog was a far from 'easy' BSD Groenendael.

Being a lone parent with two children, and visually impaired, I have not cared to train my dogs competitively, and only require basic good manners, which I hope my dogs mostly have.

The puppy that I have imported with freinds comes from a Kennel in USA that has bred the only 3 Obedience Trial Champions in the breed, which was one of my considerations when importing from USA where the breed has been bred for looks, a show dog first and foremost. I want a touch of the glamour, but not at the expense of Brains, even though I will never stretch them far!

I have I bred 4 pups that have actively competed in Obedience at various levels up to 'A', and am proud of these owners, and wish more people would consider the breed in this area, and especially in Agility, which I think they could excell at due to their build, being quick and agile on their feet!

When I breed a litter my first consideration has to be temperament, (Health and breed Type next), but it still has to be 'typical' temperament! An Elkhound is supposed to be Bold Energetic and Independant, and not nervous or aggressive. This makes them excellent companions, but they do need getting in hand to get the best from them. Not the same as a very sweet docile kind of breed, say a Cavalier King Charles.

So my view is therre is no right temeperament for all breeds, or even to an extent in any given breed.

The requirements from a field Trialler, Guide dogs for the Blind, a person who likes Conformation showing, from a Labrador will be different.

What do the rest of you think????

Barbara,
You have stated your point extremely well & I perfectly agree with you. Oddily enough, it seems that few appreciate the different purposes & origins of their dog breeds. Most want to believe that a dog is a dog is a dog.

Well, there's a lot of differences when comparing the variety within "terrier" temperment, much less adding hounds, shephards, and all the others into the mix. I hope that you realize that "temperament" in this manner is different that "emotion" type. More of a blend with "aptitude" & "motivation" in there :D

My Husband's paternal family raised working Brittanys for two generations. They were far different in looks and temperment from the AKC Brittany showdogs. Michael has no desire to own any that he grew up with, even though he loved to hunt with them. We would all be miserable with any of those dogs. They worked on a weekly basis, with high energy & prey drives. They were never meant to just be pets.

Parson Jack Russell Terriers are extremely popular, but there are many in the US heading into breed rescue because prospective owners based their decisions to own dogs soley on its looks & size. Another working dog "bred for a purpose."

I laugh when someone asks me which breed is the "perfect dog." That's similar to asking an opinion on the perfect vehicle. No such thing. It's individual. What is perfect for me, will not suit someone else. I look at dog breeds & evaluate three main points to determine High, Med. or Low maintenance.
Coat Care
Energy Level
Emotional/general care Level
____________________________
This type of evaluation works for me quite well. Pepper the Yorkie -- Med. Maint on Coat, Med. Maint, on Energy, & Low on Emot. When she became elderly... she moved into high maint. on Emot. just due to meds & keeping track of her health & well being. Emotional category to me can be breed temperment, neurosis, separation anxiety & anything else that applies.
Chienne is low-med-high ...she's neurotic and I had to adjust for her high perceptive intelligence. Personally, the more intelligent a dog, the more likely there is to have difficulties. Dumb is easier.. much easier... and unfortunately, very underated these days :D

Didn't mean to pratt on like this. It's a subject near & dear to my heart... the matching of couples Dogs & People ---Which is the best method to have a lasting relationship? :D :D
toodles

Not sure I agree on dumb being easier. My Shetland sheepdogs are highly intelligent (as far as dogs go) , but are easy in many ways. It's been easy to train them for one. I totally agree about the difference in breeds. Too many people don't understand the difference and go by looks alone. Bad decision! Especially families with young children need to educate themselves with the differences BEFORE commiting to any breed. This I believe would greatly reduce dog population in rescue.

Hi Bumble,
I'm referring to dumb as being easier to live with for someone who just wants a basic dog for a basic household. A "whooo whooo dog" as my mom calls them... easy going and likes to lie around & enjoy life, but doesn't need any special attention. I know there are many households out there like that.... not present company for this entire board, of course.

An extremely intelligent animal will not tolerate being left outside or out of family activities. It has more needs than to just lie around in ignorant bliss. Shelties are one of these breeds... You know that, but they fit you, obviously.

When I was a child, we had a collie that wasn't too bright. He was sweet. But preferred lazing around outside & didn't like being indoors. Great for us kids. He liked us, but didn't want or need any more attention than a regular brushing, dinner in a bowl left out for him, & fresh water. That's what I'm talking about when I say dumb dog....not anything negative, just doesn't need the attention & education to make him happy :D
toodles

I completely agree Barbara. "The Flower" is only half Field Trials bred and could still be a handful if allowed to be. She never sleeps during the day and is continually on the go. As Bumble says, yes, she is so easy to train PROVIDED THE TRAINING IS FOR AN ACTIVE AIM but she is so easy to bore! I know Field Trials bred dogs which are so hot they would run rings around the average handler. A friend's show Goldens are happy to lay and wait for their walks or food but no so her husbands Field Trials Goldens. She is always saying now unrestful they are to live with! And as for Working Sheepdogs and Border Collies in obedience, I know quite a few from my obedience days and of the really good workers there are not many I would want to live with!

The practise of standing some terriers at shows, nose to nose to encourage them to "Spark" off each other may make them look good in the ring but what of the dog doing the same thing to an unknown dog in the park? "Your big bad dog just bit my poor little show terrier!" And who would be supprised?

As you say, a dog doing what it was originally bred for may well not make it an ideal dog to live with.

Regards, John

I think the posting you wrote brainless (can't you change that name) is about the most intelligent and realistic I have ever seen on here.

I have seen some of Kerioaks dogs and they are very nice, very healthy, very good temprament dogs, active and fun, on the odd occasion I have bumped into them (not many) they gave the impression of makeing very good and worthwhile pets and companions but they could not be expected to work, except the odd chance.

That should not be a problem for Kerioak because she does vet the potential owners quite thoroughly. One problem is that if dogs such as those and some other breeds, Rotts, GSD's are bought by people expecting a serious and capable protection dog, then the dog cannot live up to the owners expectation and ends up....well it could end up any old way, over a mway bridge is not uncommon.

I prefer Schutzhund Dobes with a civil working capacity, probably because I was brought up with working border collies and thats how I, and for that mater peers at the time, learned to enjoy dogs.

What I am NOT saying, throughout any of my posts is that these dogs are suitable for pet only ownership, there is no way a German Dobe kennel with Sch lines would even remotly contemplate selling to a non-working home and Sch Dobes do not in any way make good 'pet only' type dogs. Good heavens Dobe rescue would be full to the brim.

There is a paradox, they are kept as pets companions and probably come across as if butter wouldn't melt, freindly docile, but that is the result of daily training and exercising of their working drives.

But back to the Sch thing, Sch has an obedience level respected throughout the world and there is no reason whatsoever that people should try, at least to achieve some good level of obedience and get away from this total falacy of quick fix behaviourist, therapy, counselling and all that nonsense.

I help at pet obedience class, while the trainers train, I explain what is happening, and with newbie owners some of the usual pitfalls and ways to combat the most common problems!

My firend who runs the class says the easiest pets are the really dumb but affable ones. the ones that walk through the door giving their owners real grief with their intelligence make her wish she was healthy and younger, and that they were hers!

What line is the bitch?

Two German Imports, and bought in order to train for Schutzhund.

I must say that I dont like Schutzhund. If anyone wants to work obedience there are competitions on virtually right through the year ranging from Exemption level right through to Championship level. For anyone wanting Working Trials, again these are easy to get to in most areas with competition from CD through to PD. For the gun dogs we have Field Trials in the season with our dogs the envy of the world and Gundog Working Tests to keep us amused during the closed season.

Brainless, are they from NE or..........if not, is one of the parents, the male, trained in defence and not stand offs?

I can't remeber the names, not being my breed, sorry :D

Must say I agree, we already have working trials, which go up from the Obedience levels through tracking, and for those competent, with the right kind of dog, the Patrol Dog Stakes! I don't see the need for a paralell sport, but each to their own, as long asit is legal and harms no one :D

There are several reasons why Sch is here and should be here.

I won't drag this out but first of all the Sch qualifications are recognised World Wide,they are international qualifications,British qualifications are not recognised outside UK.

To say Sch should not be here can only be equated with 'We should not have dogs capable of representing UK in international dog athletics' or 'We have UK human athletes representing UK at international levels but we should not have dog athletes'

Such dicatatorship attitudes are probably partly responsible for the growing interest in Sch in UK and the ones who are against an international sport are against it because they themselves must feel some kind of sense of loss or threat, of what I don't know, British nationalism probably.

Sch originated as a German Police working dog test for GSD's, it very quickly became a civilian sport and has remained so at international level since the early part of the last century.

Although any dog can enter, the dogs which predominate are not breeds which originated in UK they are European originated dogs.

If Europeans came here and said you Brits do not know how to breed Border Collies, Norfolk Terriers, Labs and endless etc's then I think Brits would have a case for saying 'Arrogant Europeans' but Europeans do not, they are confident in their breeds and the prove it in Sch points.

The KC made it clear in early 80's that anyone participating in Sch would be penalized in some way. So what? Sch is world recognized, PD is not.

The only use I personaly have for KC is to register a pedigree so it can authenticated and someone sitting in Clarges St W1, who probably has never had a dog will not dictate to me what I can and cannot do with my dog, although clearly some fall subservient to them.

If someone wants to be subservient to a London W1 address fine, but there are those of us who respect other nations and when a breed of dog has standards set by the recognised breed club of that nation we as foreigners to that breed should uphold its total, original integrity as well as it's current breed standards both in confirmation and working capacity with relevant tests. Some of us do put the extra effort in to do just that.

Rather than me say anymore as to the standards and relevance of Brit working trials to foreign breeds (I am excluding all Brit originated dogs from this statement)
I can quote an ex police dog handler I spoke to only 2 weeks ago.

He left the force in early 80's. He said when he got his PD he was over the moon, felt he really had acheived the ultimate. He then went to watch the German Sch championships.

He told me he almost ripped up his PD ticket on the spot, the standards of dogs, handling and the relationship of dog and handler made him feel like he had never had a dog let alone worked one and this was a man who was Home Office licensed at one time and who was watching German civilians and their dogs.

These days he will not even participate in British Sch, he just goes to Europe to learn, to see European dogs working to European standards.To watch Sch championships.

I suppose if I had anything myself to say about him it would be 'He does not have the Brit insularity, as a result he can learn'. He says "We haven't started breeding or training here yet"

So, to get back to the original point, no we do not have working trials here relevant to the European dogs I have mentioned, lets face it (nationalists cover your eyes) the GSD is the most popular breed in the world.

We have tried to change European dogs into something which looks a bit like them, but they are not GSD's, Dobes, Rotts as currently bred and as originaly envisaged by our Eurpean masters of the art.

Avaunt, I think you are being a little unfair. As UK was the first Country in the World to start up a Kennel Club. It is also obvious that different countries will have developed their dog sports on different lines. I would much rather abide by our own KC rules, that those of some far off foreign governing body. People abroad would not want our rules applied to them.

Why would anyone living breeding and working their dogs in the United Kingdom, with no chance of free travel to other countries want to breed or train dogs to a standard not relevant to Britain? Now that it is possible to travel, people at the top of their sport may wish to have a go (and have to train to meat those standards) at the sports in another country. I am also sure that many would like to participate in our version of the various sports.

It has taken a long time to loose the bad image of these foreeign guarding breeds being vicious. It is I would imagine every responsible UK breeders aim to produce these breeds with a temperament suitable to life as a FAMILY dog, who will act as a deterant to would be wrong doesrs. You do know that any suspicion that a dog would do any more than that could lead a dog open to a death sentence!

We do not have a right of self protection in this country, and if someone comes into your property, or attacks you, and your dog bites them, it could loose it's life. A working Police dog has just lost it's life due to biting a 14 year old youth when Police were called to break up a brawl, due to biting off part of his ear!

I do not beleive Civillians should own or train dogs capable (as you say our UK guarding breeds are not) of the kind of work that should be in professional hands only. It is the same as the right to bear arms, we in UK do not!

I am of Polish descent and visit Poland and Germany, I felt quite horrified to find that my Gamekeeper kept a Revolver in his car!

The attitude to dogs in Poland also seems to be different. Dogs are expected to bite, that is the main reason most people keep one, for it to bite any trespasser on their property, and anyone getting bitten would not expect to complain about it. My exhusband was astounded when he came to Uk and met a loose German Shepherd that it a came towards him with tail wagging, as he was rtooted to the spot expecting to be at best badly bitten!

Dogs cannot be carried on Public transport wiothout a Muzzle, and now all the dogs considered Dangerous (quite a long list, including GSD, Dobes and Rotties), must be muzzled at all times, and never allowed off lead in Public!

We have enough anti dog feeling here without encouraging people to have sharper, and more 'capable' personal protection dogs!

Well said Brainless,
I own a GSD and am amazed at how many people are terrified when they see my dog approach and how their attitude changes when I talk to them and see how friendly he is.
I am sick to death of all this macho talk of 'drives' and working ability being lacking in English dogs, with the pictures of GSD's hanging off a guys padded arm.
Who on earth wants a dog like that?
I want to be an ambassador for friendly, healthy, good looking GSD's and dont care if he doesn't guard to a set standard.
I want peoples attitude to GSD's to change for the better.
Sorry about the strength of feeling but I am sick of all the macho stuff
Lynne

Here, here Avaunt!!!!!!

I get sick of people rubbishing Schutzhund, they are the same people who think a dogs sole purpose in life is to bow, do high fives and slaver for a click and some cheese.

As I said to my college lecturer the other day. If you do not want your breed to have the original characteristics for the job for which it was developed, then are you still entitled to say your dog is part of that breed.

So for people who want a GSD to lay in front of the fire, consider another breed (lap dog). People fall in love with the whole idea of these breeds but do not want the character to back it up.

Unfortunately there are a whole load of brainless people out there ready to breed brainless flat dogs to fulfill this hungry market.

So who do I blame for the demise of working breeds? THE PEOPLE WHO BREED THE SPIRIT OUT OF THEM!!!

When beuty and fashion becomes more important than temprament and ability then you may as well abuse the dog, because in my mind that is exactly what these fools are doing.

Ian

Hey Briarquest, its been a while since you've been on here (i think). How are the pups doing?
I'm all for dogs exhibiting the characteristics that they are bred fr but with certain breeds (mine for example - SBT) people buy them because of the image and make them what they think they should be: aggressive towards other dogs, wheras they are in fact baiting breeds not, originally, fighting breeds. But i thin this happens with other breeds that are thought of as vicious (dobes, gsd and rotties ) wheb these were originally guarding/working breeds. I'm sure you will all correct me if i'm wrong! :D

Hi,
I am good thanks. I stopped coming on here because I felt under attack from people who forget that some dogs work and that some bitchs in fact have more than one litter of pups in life. Instead we should all have little dogs to kiss and cuddle and no ne should ever breed a pup for anyone else and certainly not for financial gain :)

Re the pups, Steve Dene, who is the breeding manager for the MET police stayed over at my house and tested all the pups, he liked what he saw and took 5 of the little monsters back to London with him today. Other forces are buying the rest, but they do not want any publicity as this is a new breed.

All the pups are doing well, a big culture shock compared to the working cockers!!!! But as is my ethic I have turned out the best little working Malinois that I possibly can and now the rest is upto somone else.

I have invites to all their training days, I can't wait to see the MET ones at Keston.

I will keep you posted.

Ian

Tis my nick Briarquest, Brainless that is. My first dog was a BSD Groenendael, but when I lost her at 3 1/2 I did not have another BSD, as my circumstances had changed, and I was not in a position to give a BSD the sort of stimulation and training it needs!

When she dies I was a lone parent of a 4 year old and toddler. The Elkhounds suit me far better, as even though I can't provide them with hunting, I can give them plenty of excersise, and the opportunity to sniff in the woods. Being as the job they are bred for is very seasonal (maybe a month a year) they have not been bred to have overpowering hunting drive, and are happy to be in the bosom of the family best.

Briarquest I believe you stated you would not sell any of your puppies other that to the services, does this not rather acknowledge that they are not suitable for the general public. Also the idea of having the looks but a different temperament suitable for the general public may not appeal to you but can you give an ethical reason why they should not have that if that is what they desire. If the dog does not have that 'working' temperament it is surely not 'abuse' for it not to live that kind of life.

Hi Isabel,
my rule about only selling Malinois to services is my own rule to ensure that my own stock are not abused or fall into the wrong hands. I have even had fools ask me if I would consider mating one to a lurcher :(

I think the best way to explain what I mean is to draw an anaolgy.

If you wet to a shop and bought a lion you could pretty much expect it to behave like a lion and not a Siamese cat. One of the risks you would have to take is that it would eat you or seriosly maim you.

What annoys me is that certain people would then take the lion and breed it in sucha way that it could no longer function as an example of it's own breed of the cat family in order to make it softer to suit a human need.

I have no problem with soft and loving dogs, I own working cockers and they are as soft and loving as any toy or miniature poodle that my parents owned.

But what I would not expect would be to buy a breed such as a Malinois, GSD, Rottweiler, Mastiff, Dobe, etc, etc and expect it to have the same calm and loving nature as a lap dog.

If these mental strengths are to be bred out of breedas to suit human fashion, it is my arguemenet that you can no longer claim to be an owner/breeder of that BREED specification.

Look at it a silly way. Lets breed greyhounds with the slow and ambling gait of a bulldog so they don't runaway. Is that still a greyhound? Lets breed a wolfhound that is no bigger than a Labrador so that they fit into out small houses easier. Is it still a Wolfhound?

I accept that the KC lays down breed standards which examine outward appearance minutely. What is then neglectd in this pursuit of beuty is the dogs brain.

In effect we are making our dogs into the stereotypical and not necessarily correct DUMB BLONDE. Outwardly it appears to be the same as everyone else, but knock on the door and you won't find anyone at home:)

Ian

So maybe you want to see your dogs muzzled! I know I don't

I think you will find that more bites are commited by badly bred nervous dogs than well bred confident ones. Muzzles no, just an end to the ownership of powerful breeds by people who use them as an exrension of their ego, drug dealers, people who hang around on street corners late at night with powerful dogs that wearing expensive studded body harnesses. Anyone who appears to incite any form of attack by any dog.

I agree with a national dog ID scheme and I think that anyone found failing to care for a dog by letting it roam, keeping it incorrectly, showing cruelty to should be banned from keeping a dog.

I spent 13 years as a police officer. I have come up against enough GSD's, Rottweilers, Dobes, Staffies, Pitbulls that are owned and abused by some of the dregs of society to know what I am talking about on this one.

Ian

Having spent 13 years as a police officer, then you above all should have an apprecation of just how dangerous a badly trained dog, trained in manwork could be! And they would not all be perfectly trained.

John

Hi Ian,
If you check the statistics, more bites are caused by intact males 13-24 months old regardless of breeding quality or temperaments. Personally, I believe it's a combination of factors.... out of control 'teenager' that has been given poor supervision, training and a perfect opportunity for a situation to easily become out of control. (child tormenting dog; dog left in backyard alone; infant left alone with dog; pack of dogs vs. individual etc...)
toodles

I don't think the lion analogy really works. I dont think many people would really want one, but lots of people want these breeds and indeed they want a lot of the personality traits, i.e inteligence, loyalty as well as the looks but most of them dont want and can't handle a strong desire to protect.

Also I believe 'Dumb Blondes' ARE regarding as desirable (mostly with men) :D

So, Isabel, who really is the dumber creature?? .... the blonde or the male who desires the so-called dumb blonde :P :p :P :D

Briaquist
I will have you know I am blonde and am certainly not DUMB!

I suggest you re read my post. I did not say blondes were dumb, I said the analogy was incorrect. I am blonde, my wife is blonde, my 2 kids are blonde.

OOps sorry Longdog hadn't seen your post, you can get 'Dumb' all colours eh :D

I am sorry but the KC club Breed standards do include Temperament in their standards:

BSD - Temperament: Wary, neither timid nervous or aggressive.
Characteristics: With fine proportions and proud carriage of head, conveying an impresion of graceful strength. Not only a sheep dog but a Guard dog.

Elkhound - Temperament: Friendly, intelligent and independant without any sign of nervousness.
Characteristics: A Hardy hunting spitz with a bold energetic disposition.

So the breed standards do call for mental as well as physical traits to be selected and bred for. I often hear breed standards being blamed for whatever is wrong with breeds.

HI Brainless, All my bitches are homebred- I'm on my 7th generation, and I use other people's stud dogs, usually Champions. Though I am breedng primarily for myself for show , obviously the majority of pupies I breed are sold, and almost all of those go to "pet" homes. THE most important factor is temperament first and the rest later. I also have a child who must be my priority as far as safety is concerned. I will only use dogs that display a friendly temperament and that have not caused any skirmishes etc in the ring. My girls all have sweet temperaments, but to be succesful in the ring they have to have ring presence and be "alpha" types. But they also have to be "cool headed", to be relaxed when travelling and in the ring, or they will wear themselves to a frazzle and not show themselves to their best advantage. The two most succesful dogs I have bred and shown (one a dog, one a bitch) were tigers in the ring (always up for it - but never a growl, as they had supreme confidence) and lambs in the kitchen. Both could be cuddled by toddlers and live a normal family life and as long as they had sufficient stimulation and exersise, were not "hot" or "silly" and ;laze about all day inbetween their walks like any other dog. I am not trying to blow my own trumpet, but trying to get across that just because they are bred for show, from generations of top show dogs doesn't mean to say they cannot be family dogs too. I have dozens of my pupies in family homes who are true family dogs.

As for John's remarks about terriers in the park
(!:-0 !) , if I were less than knee high, trotting along minding my own business on a lead and a herd of "loose elephants" came charging towards me I think I may stand up and growl - wouldn't you???!! ;-). Because so many people exersise their dogs off leads when they wont re-call , in public places I do not walk my dogs in public parks - luckily I dont need to now. In my experience the loose dogs that have approached when I used to, were often already growling, showing signs of aggression and I am too nervous that my dogs would be hurt, they are only tiny really, and I am no match for a couple of big dogs determined to hurt/antagonise mine.

Sounds like your priorities are a lot like mine. You want the dog to have a typical, but not an extreme breed temperament. You would want your dogs to be able to kill vermin, but not be so hot that they couldn't switch off and be happy easy going family dogs!

I love to see mine off lead, but being a hunting, nosey type dog, I try and ensure it is where they are safe from their own hunting drives. Not too near a road, or where there is a lot of wildlife to hunt! I am fortuanate that the country park near where I live is accessed by cul de sac access roads, and is bounded one side by a river (mine aren't keen on water). the animals that they will encounter can easily escape (Waterfowl, Birds and Squirrels), so I don't have too much trouble with recall being spoilt! If they do occasionally go out of sight in the woods, I know they are safe, and unable to get into mischief, and that they are excellent with other dogs, either ignoring, or playing if invited!

If we meet an aggressive dog, they will usually stalk of with noses in the air, or if actually attacked will defend themselves until the dog backs off, then will stalk off! They don't seem to bear grudges, aws if they meet the same dog again, and it behaves they will ignore it!

They are great with the kids, though I must admit to being less strict about jumping up in the house than I was when they were tiny, buyt part of that is the kids faul, as they encourage them up!

I think Brainless has got her point across excellently - most dogs these days are family pets and need to have the characters for this, but, we also have to remember what they were originally bred for and not lose those traits. Every dog should have the best chance of a full and healthy life and a lot of this to start with depends upon the breeder - looking after the bitch during her life, selecting her mate, testing for whatever is available for the particular breed, interrogating prospective puppy owners and trying to drum into them - train your dog, exercise it, play with it, don't let it get fat, take it to the vet if you even think there is something wrong etc etc

I feel that most dogs, if you do nothing with them, will sadly accept this and create their own amusements but those that have their brains as well as bodies exercised with repay the effort over and over again.

I think Avaunt has been checking up on me :-) , which of my dogs have you seen?

I don't want a "serious" protection dog if you mean one that will attack first and ask questions later, the risks of litigation in this day and age are too high to risk that. However if you mean a dog that will rumble at someone approaching strangely that they are not sure of, but stop when I say, then this I accept and am happy with. To me this is personal protection which is what the Dobe was bred for.

Schutzhund is a sport, and the dogs are trained or encouraged in specific exercises just like Gundogs - retrievers, HPR,spaniels etc, WT, Obedience, Agility, Flyball etc. I rarely attend shows but did recently to enter the obedience classes. Many, if not most, of the dogs there were European bred and the atmosphere between them was no different than if you went to a show where most were of primarily UK breeding. Most European dogs are pets, not all of them have their brains stretched by training! Schutzhund may be recognised everywhere but other countries have their own versions - IPO for one.

Christine
With apologies to Brainless that Sch has got in the way again when it should probably be returned to the Testing Dobes thread - Avaunt?

I read a dog history book about 7 years ago... I wish I could remember the title... Anyway, several chapters within discussed the increase of aggression in GSDs, Dobies, & Rotties (the German Protection Breeds).

Apparently, throughout the 1940s, 50s, & 60s, about 75% of GSDs sent through US & UK police, guard, & (SchH) training schools failed to enter or pass due to lack of aggressive tendencies. These dogs were rehomed as pets. The "successful" dogs became part of these professions & "hobbies."

According to this book which had good solid documentation in its research, in the 1970s the demand by prospective owners grew more for "protection" dogs... aggressive/protective tendencies were encouraged by breeders. & this is where the idea that GSD's are vicious began in UK & US. These dogs weren't common enough before this for people to realize they weren't supposed to be this way. Of course, there was still the fearsome ideal that had been propagated by the Germans during the War. American soldiers who returned passed along horror stories of these "vicious" dogs. Which also hurt perception of these dogs.

Now we do have problems today...both with perception & agression. Personally, the demand for a "guard" dog is much rarer than the wish for a family pet. Guess which should likely win out for the majority of dogs if the breed is to remain off of the notorious & banned lists....

Anyway, just presenting a point -- must end now, due to the annoying reminding of hungry dogs & my headache :(
toodles

Westie Lover, you know full well you are taking my post out of context! I do not condone big dogs biting terriers in the park but I said, and I still maintain that (And this is cut and pasted from my original post):-

The practise of standing some terriers at shows, nose to nose to encourage them to "Spark" off each other may make them look good in the ring but what of the dog doing the same thing to an unknown dog in the park? "Your big bad dog just bit my poor little show terrier!" And who would be supprised?

I am more concerned about my dogs being bitten by terriers in the park than by big dogs!

John

John,
You do realize that terrier is actually terror mispelled???!!! :P :p ;) (attempting to diffuse a tricky situation with humor)

Don't worry Toodles, I'm only growling, not biting! :p

Regards, John

Just give us fair warning if your growls moves towards one of those deep throated snarls.... those are scarier than just growling :D

Oh good grief, the chances of me even attempting to reply to every point in all that text in 5 inputs is zero to nilch, if ther'es one thing I have a block on it's writing.

So I'll try a couple of comments....and am not sure where to start.

Brainless....your first posting after mine this AM (Fri). I agree with most of your points.....I just looked back and I'll pick this one point, below;

{>"I do not believe Civilians should own or train dogs capable (as you say our UK >guarding breeds are not) of the kind of work that should be in professional hands >only. It is the same as the right to bear arms, we in UK do not! "}

I will give a short reply to this and at the same time cover a question Kerioak asked in another post (can't remember the name) which got deleted,Kerioak asked "What have you acheived with this dog"

To Kerioak, nothing, he started idiopathic head tremour at 5 months, he is a hyper, hyper alone rules out any possibilty of tracking. Head tremor, albeit idiopathic, is not something I would ever take a chance on by putting a dog over jumps.
He also (and it seems most of his litter), at around 6/7 months started CHRONIC growing pains (I don’t remember the real name). These are not the normal growing pains all my other Dobes have had and got over in a few days, these were so bad that I had to carry him to gutter allow him to limp just a few yards and back in house, these periods lasted from 4 weeks to 7 or 8, and went on until he was about 16 months.
From the beginning of the head tremor he never got a single command because he could not be corrected, although he was in advance in obedience at the time, carried out at that age by operant conditioning.
He also has far to low a nerve threshold for protection so that part of Sch could never be achieved.
He is however high on defence drive with male dogs.

As a result of his head tremor and the fact that at 18 months I had a dog without recent training I put him on the static electric trainer, that psychologically and physically this is the least stressful and most succesfull method to train a dog with.

If a dog is hyper it does not need any of the other factors to rule it out of any serious sports work.

Back to Brainless original thing above (civilian hands). I think you possibly obverestimate police traing or underestimate what goes on in non-paid training, yes I mean Sch.

I am not going to attempt a detailed reply except I did tell you what an ex UK police dog handler said after he had gained his PD here and then went to watch German Civilian Sch, I will not repeat that.

The UK police team went to Germany to compete against Euro teams, the following is almost word for word from one who went he told me his thoughts when he watched the German especially and the rest
Work their dogs “I don’t know if I will stay in the job now as soon as the Germans started I felt I could not consider myself a Jack Russell handler let alone a Police dog handler, we all felt like an embarrassment”

Brainless, the police use GSD’s and they would be the first to say that they’re dogs are no better trained than Sch dogs in civilian hands.

Kerioak >’’ I don't want a "serious" protection dog if you mean one that will attack first and ask questions later” neither do I, that is not a protection dog, it might be a fear biter or a dog out of control.

Kerioak, my final on this one regarding my last Dobe which was work capable.

My last dog was from a German import we all knew that possibly one or two from the litter might possibly have the balanced drives which make a good working dog, but it was only a possibility.
He did have those balances, the rest was down to his training and the total relationship to bring the whole character out.
He excelled at both ends of his character.

He was the only male Dobe ever to have officially been made a therapy dog in an art therapy dept (or any other dept) of a UK psychiatric hospital and the extremes of disturbed behaviour which broke out daily is something that takes getting used to, if one ever gets completely used to it. Labs had been used but never a Dobe and the hospital admin is responsible if any incidents occur.

One evening on the top deck of London bus, an environment which he was familiar with but never trained in, a mugging started, 3 guys came from the front of a bus to another guy with invalid sticks in the middle, this was 1998 or 9.

I always have my dogs on a 6’ training lead he was given a stand off command to keep him in prey drive and not bite, he came from under the seat instantly, identified and discriminated muggers from victim. They ran to the front, I told him out and we both stood at the steps at the back.

At some point one came jumping over the seats another down the middle aisle, decisions in fast moving situations like that need a dog with well balanced drives that can respond to commands without hesitation and with speed, he was given a defence command, which would have been much more intimidating to a potential attacker then the first prey drive stand off, thankfully it worked and they went back.

The police arrived after what might have been 8 or 10 mins (hard to say under that kind of situation).
There was a conviction for attempted theft and I got £160 award.

So Kerioak and or anyone else, what is a protection dog? one that has highly beneficial characteristics capable of calming seriously disturbed individuals and capable of working a 5 hour day in a situation of such human extremes without drive exhaustion? Or is it this brute of a beast which bites passers-by and anyone else it takes a fancy to, seemingly without warning or control.

Or is it one of those horrible Sch dogs which might fly into the crowd instead of the helper at any moment?

I do not agree with this post

Hi Cleopatra, whats an SBT?

Staffordshire Bull Terrier

Oh god, back to the drawingboard avaunt.

Que?

i dont either, and it wouldnt happen in these days and get a reward-=

I didn't take you out of context John, sorry I shouldn't tease you!! No offense intended-as ever. XX. I agree that some terriers, especially the larger ones are encouraged to "stand off" and its not desirable to encourage this trait in a terrier. To be honest though I wonder how many of these show dogs are walked in public anyway? Do people walk their show dogs at parks and public places. I have lived so long in the sticks - I dont really know what others do,who live in built up areas.

Yes my lot go out in public to the park, and every other time I leave the house, except for church, or trips where dogs are not allowed!

Hi Westie,
I never heard of this "sparking" of terriers that John referred to. Fascinatingly worrisome, eh? ;) Hate to meet one of those on a trail with my two. Argh!!!

Anyway, I think many of the different "show dogs" have lives far different than the average pup. No way are dogs allowed to be dogs when they're THE pampered titled champions. I ran into some people who were like that at some of the shows in the US. Similar to "Teethclenchers" & rivaled in snobbery. Just an absolutely amazing experience :P
toodles