To add further query to my earlier post, just wondering if any experts out there know what is the best small breed guard dog. i guess EBT if properly trained, but just wondering if there is another that someone who's done work in the police might say is better. reason why i ask is because most of the guard dogs mentioned are larger breeds, and just wondering what works best for piece of mind in a small flat.

Why do you need a trained"guard"dog for a flat? To be honest I would never advise anyone to get a dog as a guard on it's own without a trained handler, in fact all guard dogs in the UK must have a handler unless the dog is confined so that it could not reach an intruder.To have a guard dog in any other situations is against the law

Better to have a good alarrm/intruder system & keep a dog as a pet

Any small dog kept as a pet will give warning of intruders, but if you live in a flat you may not be allowed to keep pets/dogs, you would have to check your lease/agreement.  Neighbours will not be amused if your dog is left to 'guard' alone for hours on end without supervision and may well report it, and it would be unfair on the dog. 

A burglar alarm would be far more effective and wouldn't destroy your furnishings through boredom ;)

yes its meant to be more a deterrent and i m referring to the instances when someone is home with the dog and an intruder breaks in.  i think a good ebt or sbt would at least help avoid an incident there. though i think its instincts to protect might not be as natural as they are in a presa canario

You do realize if your proposed dog bit or frightened the intruder you would be liable under the law for damages

that makes no sense...the govt is proposes allowing people to shoot intruders if they feel endangered but a dog can't attack an intruder who threatens your life...strange laws here

It has always been the law whether the police & CPS chose to take any action is up to them & of course even if they don't the intruder could take civil action.

All the Government has done is clarify the law re reasonable force no more no less

So basically what you're saying nk_london, is that you are proposing to acquire a dog for the purpose of protecting yourself when someone breaks into your flat??  You want the dog to protect you and are fully willing to put the dog's life at risk in the event that the intruder has a knife/firearm??  Why not hire a minder? at least he will be there through choice and with full knowledge of what you expect of him.

Is this why you appear to have a fixation on illegal breeds?

illegal breeds? i actually didnt know the dogo was illegal till i asked. it's not illegal in the US or Canada.  If my child was attacked i would put my self in harms way to protect him.  Dobermans, german shepherds have guarded properties since the dawn of time as far as i know.  Not sure why it's unusual all of a sudden to feel a little added bit of security by having a dog there. i hope anything of the sort never actually happens to any of us, but i guess it's acceptable my son dies, but heaven forbid the dog do anything to protect his family as i would do mine.  for you to harp on the illegal breed thing only feeds into all this Breed specific legislation.  my friend has a dogo in the US and i've never heard of a dog biting incident involving that breed.  but apparently it's a dangerous breed.  from a legal standpoint it's extraordinary to me, that if a theif breaks into a house and kills someone, to do anything to stop him can actually infringe on his civil liberties....i've studied british common law, and i don't fully understand the rationale of this idea.  I don't think any breed is inherently good or bad, and not sure what you are implying by this 'fascination with illegal breeds'.  not every pit owner or dogo or fila owner in the world is a neo-nazi, dogfighter.  Franklin D. Roosevelt had a pitbull, as did the little rascals.  they have a right to exist just as much as your poodle does, even though they are being shunned by every country in the world.  when the ban extends to sbt and ebt as it has in a lot of countries, i'll see how you feel about 'illegal breeds'.

I am concerned, NK, about your reasons for wishing to own a dog.    To me, it would appear that your own needs - ie a burglar deterrent - are foremost in your mind.    In which case, I would advise you to invest in a top of the range burglar alarm, with CCTV and, if necessary, quick response at the local police stationi.

To contemplate purchasing a dog means that you must take on the responsibility of another living creature, and consider that creature's needs as well as your own.

What could YOU offer a dog?

Margot

I very much doubt other breeds will be added to the DDA in the UK since the change in government from the Tories who at the instigation of Mrs Thatcher brought in the DDA to the New Labour Party

I live in a very remote part of the countryside & I have a full state of the art security system which is very effective & is there not just to protect my property but also my dogs

Be in no doubt if you have something a theft really wants no dog will stop them

I suggest you get security system & forget the dog

i own two dogs now....i've owned four dogs in my life.  i've put myself in harms way to protect my chihuahua when a german shepherd tried to attack him...i am trying to have a discussion on a topic that has nothing to do with my own circumstances, but is more a topic of interest to me. can you please not be so self-righteous as to assume that you know more about dogs and what they require than i do, and lecture me on why i shouldn't own a dog.  not sure if you have a family, or just a house full of pets.  i hope one day you don't have to face the choice between loosing your child and loosing your dog, because it would be interesting what you would choose (though i don't think i'm talking to a person with a job or a family here).  no one is debating how important a dog's life is here, but the way you people talk it seems that they are not equally important, but more important than your own children. if that is the case, you have every right to believe that.  this is the most unusual result of what i hoped was going to be a fruitful discussion by breeders on different dog types.  my chihuahua is the best watch dog...the slightest sound sets him off.

You asked the question, and others merely gave their opinions, anyway, looking at your last sentence, you have answered your own question regarding guard dogs :)

liberty

haha...indeed...i'm going to advise all the police forces of the world to hire chihuahuas. though we might end up charged with a civil suit if the theif's ear drums are slightly harmed by the small dog barking at him.  can't have a thief experience the slightest discomfort when he arrives at our homes in the United Kingdom :)

btw i don't really have any 'property' to guard here.  i have a flat that i rent and if my family's life were at stake the theif could take all the furniture if he wants (it's not mine anyways).  it's more a question of making sure my mom, my family are safe.  what you say about it being illegal to have a guard dog seems very unusual to me. so is it illegal to put a sign deterring theives that says 'beware of dog'.  i guess it must be shocking to you all that in the states it's not illegal to shoot a theif who breaks into your house and threatens your life.  i'm not american but in this instance they seem less backward in their laws than UK does.

Errrr GSDs have not since the dawn of time "guarded"property as they were originally a Shepherding breed & only fairly recently been used as patro; dogs

I would still suggest an alarm system to protect your property my Cavaliers kick up more of a fuss then my rescue GSD & the only burglar ever caight by any of my dogs(including my Schutzhund trained GSDs)was caught by a bearded collie who er nutted him(literally)using his head not his teeth

No, it doesn't shock me in the slightest that in the US a householder can shoot a burglar. I don't entirely disagree with it either! But the law is the law, and until it's changed we all have to abide by it, whether or not we agree with it. If your chihuahua gives you plenty of warning of an intruder, so that you can phone the police, then s/he's the best guard dog you could have!
:)

Jeangenie,

"No, it doesn't shock me in the slightest that in the US a householder can shoot a burglar"

Well, it shocks me and I am an American.   They must have changed the laws since I left!   It is completely untrue that someone can shoot a burglar and not be prosecuted for it.  And probably have the burglar suing you for "emotional stress" or "loss of livelyhood" if the burglar was actually harmed in any way.

Stacey

It's not all over America, Stacey, but certainly in the "American state of Oklahoma, where householders can use deadly force against intruders. If any injuries or deaths result, householders are immune from compensation claims. Since the law was passed in 1988, burglaries in Oklahoma have halved." (quote from the DT.)

I think you are causing yourself more anxiety about home security than you need it is very rare for someone to be murdered in their home during the course of a burglary most murders in the home are committed by someone known to the victim!  For that reason I suspect it will still be hard to persuade the crown prosecution service that every burglar deserves to die even after the law in clarified :).   Your best bet is to discuss your concerns with your local crime prevention officer who I am sure will do much to reassure you and advise you on the best way to maximise security on your property in a sensible and legal fashion.

i live in london and in case you haven't noticed there's a lot of crime here.  and these guys are not deterred by alarms or dogs for that matter.  so essentially my whole question becomes rhetorical in the end because nothing can really provide good protection.  a sophisticated criminal can get through sophisticated systems anyways.  best bet is to take the family and the dogs and run out the back door for dear life.

As I say, I would talk to your local crime prevention officer he will know the actual occurance of personal attacks and be able to give you the most knowledgement advise on preventing it.

I have a full-time job, I have 4 children, 6 grandchildren, husband and 7 dogs.    I am not lecturing you about why you shouldn't own a dog - how are we supposed to know what is your lifestyle from your 13 posting?   You seemed more concerned about the rights and wrongs of a dog guarding YOUR property rather than the rights and wrongs of another dog joining your family.    If I am wrong, I now stand corrected.

As you say, probably your chihuahua would act as the best deterrent - otherwise, as someone else, on another thread suggested - geese are good!

Margot

I think there is confusion when a person asks about Guard dog.  It is actually ilegal to have a Guard dog ih the nUK unless it is liscensed and has a handler.  I think what most people mean by a guard dog is a dog that will bark and because of a reputation will intimidate people.  This is more a per4ception than a reality of course.

I have a bred that is rather GSD wolf like, and people always ask before stroking them, but would always go strainght up to my freinds Golden Retriver.  The fact was that a man would be more likely to be bitten by the goldie, as she disliked men, and on several occasions a man had to be warned just in time not to touch her.  My lot on the other hand would have licked any normal acting human to death, but anyone acting suspiciously would be treated with barking (mostly bravado), though I think if pushed they would look after their Mum, but one never knows, and I hope to God never to have to find out.

As a number of people have been murdered when walking their dogs I wouldn't want to rtely on a dog for protectiuon, as the kind of dog guaranteeed to protect would not be one that a lay person should or could own in the UK.

well i would not say a SBT
i have 3 and if some 1 was to brack in i dont think they would do anything but lick them
they are so happy to see any1.  there have been a lot of brakens around my and i dont think i will get hit as most ppl know i have my dogs and they think they will do something but i domt think they would.  a total stranger can walk in the door and the dogs will jump on them and lick.

but if im out walking and some1 walks up behind me or is very load then the dogs are there for me.  i often walk down a dark ale at night and my male dog walks behimd me and he has in the past gone for ppl he dont know (this is only happend in the dark at night)

nk London
If a person is willing to break into your house once the alarm has been raised by a dog the breed that raises the alarm is unlikely to make a difference. Most burglers want to break in undetected.If this cannot be done they go else where and hence you chi will be enough to put them off.It is not the size or breed of dog you own but the fact that it makes a noise.
However if they are the more violent type and are determined to break into your house do you really think it would make a difference what breed you have?
I have owned both Staffords(very large ones at that) and GSD(who worked as a security guard dog in his spare time).None are as good a guard dog as the breed I own...who are a non guarding hound breed.
Archer

i agree about staffords, they are not good gaurd dogs, they have a good instict and protect the people they love, but they dont guard the house, like a previous poster said they would be too happy to see a new face!!!

   I own 3 bull terriers and one staffy, and they would love to see a burgaler, probably help him too and see him out, covering him with licks!!  There is no way i see these breeds as gaurd dogs. They are people dogs :-)

So you're considering Presa Canario, Dogo Argentino, English Bull Terrier and the Staffie as possibles for guarding your London flat as you are worried about burglars??    You could be giving yourself more to worry about by having one of the more impressive looking larger breeds as people have been known to break into homes and cars expressly to steal the dogs, if they think money can be made easily then its fair game :rolleyes:  Dogs have even been stolen while out walking in the park and they don't have to be friendly dogs either :(

On the other hand it could be said that if you feel the need to have a guard dog in your flat then there must be something interesting/valuable to guard ;) making it more likely that your home would be targeted :(

As you can see having a guarding breed can be a double edged sword :)

Gosh NK LONDONdo you live in some kind of hell hole, i think you have been watching too much crimewatch!!!!!!!

Or Sunhill LOL

anyone who comes to rob my flat will be sorely disappointed

actually i'm not worried at all about crime to be honest, nor do i expect to ever get robbed. but it is interesting how up-in-arms everyone in this forum became on what i considered to be a very hypothetical question.  do i live in a hell hole?....last i checked, a portered block in south ken was not considered a hell hole but maybe the times are changing.  i think it is interesting that dog-lovers out there can be so hostile to certain breeds. if you think that an apbt, or dogo or presa don't deserve to exist than i think you are a dog hater, not a dog lover. 

I'm not anti any breed It would be difficult seeing as I spend all my time re educating dogs that have been badley brought up by their previous owners

When Rottweilers were in in breed for the "machotype person, I had some real softies that at first appeared really nasty simply because of the owners, same with a lot of inadequate owners of staffies, they want their dog to be aggressive & so never curb the bolshy puppy with training.

Any breed can be turned into an aggressive dog(witness the rise in iffy Goldens)by poor breeding, rearing & education. There was a yorkie that no one could handle even his owner because he had never been taught that growling & biting was wrong, believe me I saw grown men (including vets & so called behaviourists)shy away from being near him. He was never perfect but eventually came to accept the human touch as being non threatening(he also had undiagnosed double slipping patellas because the vets were frightened of him)

However anyone wanting a dog as a guard dog will never be encouraged by me, even though my GSDs & BCs would I know have defended me should the need arise In todays world civilian dogs that bite even in defence are quite likely to be PTS under the DDA

nk_london, nobody here is anti-breed, because anyone withhalf a brain realises how stupid the DDA is. But sadly it's the law. Until it's changed, that's what everyone has to abide by. If you want to change it, get out there protesting with the rest of us!

Yes, we're dog-lovers. Which is why we don't want any born that are likely to be seized, removed from their familiar surroundings and the people they know and trust, for years, and then destroyed by strangers. We wouldn't wish that upon a loved friend. So we abide by the law. If we don't love and respect our dogs in that way ...

No one here is anti any breed...that is why we do not agree(on the whole) with the breeding and owning of 'illegal' breeds because at the end of the day it is the dog that is taken away and destroyed.
Archer

>actually i'm not worried at all about crime to be honest, nor do i expect to ever get robbed

What is the guard dog for then?

i'm not getting a guard dog...but was curious what constitutes a guard dog in a flat. regarding the dda, seems like the situation is getting worse before it gets better. every year more countries are jumping on board (most parts of canada now ban the pitbull-type breeds).  i hope one day the apbt or dogo are not on the endangered species list or being viewed from behind a zoo wall one day.  quite a sad state of affairs indeed.

as far as ive heard, even a sign saying 'beware of the dogs' is illegal?  i think its only things like be aware, or dogs running free or sumin that u are allowed. Cos stating 'beware' says that u have somethin to be wary of and u cud get in trouble. as far as i kno!!!

As far as a guarding breed goes, if ur dog bites an intruder and he presses charges ur dog could well be pts.  i would stick with one of the less likely to 'guard' breeds, cos u could well lose ur dog!

The thing bout differences between uk law and US law is a bit strange. But if u think bout it, the US may be allowed to protect their homes with guns, but isnt america far more dangerous because of it?  In the uk its illegal to have a gun, but we are starting to head toward America in the crime sense cos of laws not being strict enough.  Thats not to say i think its fair that if someone breaks into ur home and injures themselves they shud be able to get compensation!  uk law is a bit backward in that sense!!!!

My breed is used as a guard dog in Spain by some people.  When my house was broken into there were four of them inthe house.  The house was totally wrecked, 1 dog missing, 1 dog jumped onto a 6 foot garage and fell off it whilst pregnant, the other one just stay lay on the settee and didn't move, know this as it was the only cushion left!

It seemed that it didn't matter what the dogs did to him as he was that high on drugs I'm sure that he didn't feel a thing.  Luckily 2 years later he was charged after DNA of his blood here at my house, but he's totally wrecked the lives of 2 of my dogs !

If someones determined to do something or is that stoned out of his head he'll do it no matter what breed of dog you've got.

Which is why although I have a very large GSD(who is as soft as putty whilst we are in)& four very noisy Cavaliers(i until recently also had two Schutzhund trained BCs) I have a state of the art infra red triggered security system with a direct link to a police hot line(because of the remoteness)

you often hear nowdays of the theives stealing the dogs!!!! even the guard dogs!!!!
a while ago a lady from club had her car nicked with her dog in,the car was dumped later that night the dog wasnt found for a few days,in some squat somewhere.

There is a coach company near us,a nd they had their GSD stolen, he was actually taken by getting him interested in a bitch the thieves were seen with, probably in season, as the dog had always been a good guard.  the dog was found a week later.  I suspect the thieves just wanted to use him as a free stud for their bitch.

I have two very good "guard" dogs here, only a fool would try to enter my house when faced with a BC and a goldie who don't want them to be there!!! Any dog can be a guard dog, but you actually have to want a dog just for it being a dog, not just for their guarding properties. As someone said you may as well get an alarm system.
Hmm, i don't consider US dog laws better than the UK, at least in the UK dogs are allowed off lead in most safe open spaces, in Many parts of the US they are restricted to dog parks.

I believe this question has been blow out of proption. The comment about the alram system, was noted the first time, i dont see the need of why it needs to be reiterated has many times has it was. There have been fair comments made but has nk London commented, thought it would make an intresting discussion even though he has no intension of buying a guard dog.This "discussion" has turned into nk london trying to back up his comment, by having his dog handling abilities thrown at him. I believe there are some very intresting comments on this topic, some which have educated me more, but some comments seem to be juding NK london without knowing anything about him. 

Perhaps you should read through the posts again, as it appears it is some form of guard dog that is being sought.

liberty

As I don't live in London, can anyone tell me how "I live in Hampstead, near the heath"  translates into "a portered block in south ken"  :rolleyes:  Sorry I'm just confused.

Dill,

NK_London was just responding to the post, " Gosh NK LONDONdo you live in some kind of hell hole, i think you have been watching too much crimewatch!!!!!!!  "  

I live in leafy Surrey, in a posh estate, and the biggest deterant to crime that I have is my next door neighbor.  Next to his house, mine looks like his garden shed.  He's been robbed or almost robbed (burglars heard/seen outside his property) five times in the eight years that I have lived here.   He has had a dog, although not any longer.  He has an alarm system.  He has two people who stay in his home rent free, just to be sure that someone is in his home when he travels.  There are CCTV cameras at each entrance to my housing estate.  All entrances but one are gated and locked.  None of these appear to be sufficient deterants. 

(The CCTV cameras were installed after numerous pety, but still distrurbing burgalries on the estate.)

Robbery is an unfortunate fact of life these days and everyone has a reason to be concerned.  

I have two terriers who would bark if anyone broke into the property, if they were not sleeping too deeply.  I had an alarm system, but after a few false alarms, followed by the appearance of the police a half an hour later, I figured it was not worth the expense.  I can't say that I worry much about getting robbed, but I would not be shocked if it happened.

NK_London - years ago I had a friend who had a Doberman in part to guard her flat.  She was robbed and her dog nearly died.  The burglars either broke or pryed a window open and tossed in a piece of raw meat laced with sleeping tablets.  No breed of dog will stop determined robbers.

Stacey

It's obviously a five-mile long flat, Dill! ;) :D