I have a new young bitch pup aged 14 weeks.  She has started walking strangely, bunny hopping with the back legs and when you lift her, you can feel the knee joint crackling.  The vet suspects luxating patellas which has upset me greatly.  This dog has come from a careful breeder, dam and sire hip scores are excellent, the other pup in the litter is fine - there were only two.

What are my chances of this dog leading a full and happy life?  Doesn't seem to be bothering her much and the vet has put her on a course of Rimadyl which I hate.  However, she has had diahorrea during the night about 5 times, but as I gave her a little glucosamine, I don't know which has caused the problem.

Would welcome any views.

That's a bit of a worry, Jean.  We have had Noof's patellae tested by our GP vet as he was at stud, and he just tried to manipulate them, and couldn't - does this make sense?   I think there may be a radiographic test as well - they do one in the states, I think, but would be hesitant to do it in a baby puppy.  Having said that, someone once (can't remember who or where) said that one can always move the patellas in a baby puppy - can anyone enlarge on this?

I don't think it's very common in British-bred dogs, but certainly has come in with some of the Scandinavian imports - do PM me if you like, with the breeding - it may help.

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

Personally I'd be very surprised if it were Luxating Patellas. At that age just about any patella could be put out because the strength is just not there. This puts me in mind of another Flatcoat puppy around 15 years ago who the vet said had Patella Luxation. The breeder invited her puppy buyer to bring her vet to see the rest of the litter and the vet pronounced ALL the puppies had patella problems. Another friend was due to take one of the puppies and this breeder offered her deposit back but my friend decided to take the puppy anyway. We had a chat with friends at the vet college who told us that at that age it was impossible to tell! Either way, the puppy my friend took, and for that matter, all of the puppies in the litter grew up to have sound legs. My friend and the breeder both having regulaly worked their dogs in the field!

I wonder if there is a chance this puppy has knocked it's self? A puppy running around is always open to knocks and bruises and an active Flatcoat puppy more than most.

Regards, John

John, when we brought the pup home, the first time I lifted her to take her upstairs, I felt creaking in the back right leg.  The next day when we took her to the vet for first jabs, the vet also noticed it and felt the knee and wasn't happy about it, but we decided to wait.  I have always felt the creaking when I pick her up.

It wasn't until I took her to the beach yesterday that after about 5 minutes I noticed this strange walking, back legs together, feet slightly out and when she ran, she bunny hopped.  She walks relatively normally at home, one leg after the other, but as soon as she runs, the bunny hops start.

When I took her to the vet yesterday, he said her knees felt swollen and as big as the knees on his adult lab.  They also felt hot.  So we are on total rest and rimadyl yesterday.  However, after a night of 4 goes of diahorrea, I have stopped it.  She is as bright as a button herself and extremely intelligent.  I feel a bit devasted today.  What is the prognosis if this is correct.

I had an Irish Setter that had Patella Luxation at 5 months. My Vet referred me to an Orthopaedic specialist vet (Malcolm Ness). Who said that fairly vigourous jumping and running exercise, the sort you don't normally advise for puppies, would in all likelyhood strengthen the joints to the point of normality. Apparently it was caused by tibial tortion, ie the twisting growth pattern of the tibial bone.

By the way, it worked!!

Dawn R.

What you are describing, the bunny hopping, sounds more like a hip problem to me than a knee problem, although of course, without being able to see or feel the puppy anything I say is only a guess.

If it really is patellas then I have known several dogs which have lived out full happy lives without any intervention. The only thing is, they were smaller breeds where there was nothing like the weight or power onto the legs that a Flatcoat exerts. Patella luxation tends to be seen more often in smaller breeds.

As you know, the patella, or knee cap, is there purely to protect the knee and an animal can live quite happily without it. Many years ago a friend of mine had to have one of his removed after badly breaking it in a motorcycle accident. The thing about humans is though, that you can tell them to be careful, whereas of course you cannot tell a dog that! For that reason it is not usual to remove a dog's knee caps!!

The patella is a bone which covers the joint between the femur and the tibia and is attached to both by cartilage. The patella it's self is held in place by running in a groove in the femoral head. There are two usual problems that can happen. One is that the groove does not deepen enough to hold the patella in place so that it rides up out of the groove. The second problem is that sometimes the patella does not naturally sit over the groove but rather to one side of it. There are operations to correct both these defects. In the case of the shallow groove it is simply filed out deeper! (An op called a "Trochleaplasty") In the case of misalignment the cartilage is cut away fro where it joins the tibial crest and is resited sideways to a point where the knee cap now runs in the groove.

Personally I would hang fire a little while before doing anything other than maintain a watching brief.

Regards, John

if you are that worreid i would have the puppys hips and knees and hocks xray,first before any medication to find the problem not to cove it with rimyal or metcam,plus there side effect to rimyal which i would be every care with a puppy.

blue my 6 month old  has been lame off and on the pass two week,it only today i remmbed that i came down stairs where the dogs sleep a a fold up cage a double one was on the floor,so know i thing she may have hurt her back right leg that way,so she off to the vets in the morning if he cannot feel any thing then she will be xray too,she never gone up or down stairs,only road walk never off the lead untill 1year,and only one walk a day up to 40mins,she walks ok but it when she runs you can see the problem.

with patella problem the puppies at this age are growing so  are joints,muscals,ligment all grow so fast,i would not do any op on the knee untill the puppies stop growing around 18 months to two years old,like john stated hold on for a while.

terri

A must say I'm not a lover of Rimadyl. There have been some rather bad side effects in some dogs. I know there is a danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater but I would only use it as a last resort. Metacam, which was described to me as, "Same horse, different stable" can also have side effects but the reports I've heard have not been as frequent. I know it sounds a hard hearted thing to say but pain is natures way of saying, "Don't do that!" and without it a dog can easily overdo things causing it's self even more serious problems. 

Regards, John

I am not giving any more Rimadyl.  She is lively and happy and did a reasonable poo tonight and is eating.  So I thank you all for your comments - I feel better.  I will see the vet tomorrow hopefully who is a Flattie owner and see what he says, but I don't feel like interfering at the moment.  John, since reading what you said about the "hopping gait", although the knees are both crackly, it is interesting to note that when we were on the beach yesterday, it was her stance that drew my attention.  The back was slightly arched, as though in pain, knees bent and legs held close together.  I hope it's not the hips, but I suppose it could be.  Have been reading lots about patella luxation and she doesn't extend the leg backwards or hold it out, but then if both knees are affected I suppose she couldn't do that.

I will come back after I see the vet.

Hello,

I know the litter John is speaking of and I know that the consultant at the college, said that by manipulating the knees of such young pups, as your is, the vet may actually be causing damage where none is!
I would strongly advise you to contact Brenda Phillips the FCR Society health secretary, as I know she has helped other people with similar problems in the past.
Regards
Polly

I knew you would know who I was talking about Polly. We were both supporting this poor breeder after the vet pulled her puppies to bits! You will also know who I'm talking about when I say about another Flatcoat with terrible hips. This poor bitch used to stand roached backed, legs pulled together and with the unmistakable bunny hop movement. The owner did not live near me so I only saw her on very irregular occasions, Crufts, breed Champ Show and the like. She told me that her vet had x-rayed the bitch and was going to operate at something between 18 months and 2 years old. When I saw her shortly after the bitch had got to 2 years old I asked her if she had been operated on yet? Her answer was, "No, she's running perfectly now!" During the early stages of growth the puppy grows so fast strength gets left behind, particularly if the pup is in any pain. As the puppy's growth slows so more energy goes into strength and the muscle growth helps to compensate for the poor bone support of the femoral head. This bitch lived out a full and very happy life without surgery.

Regards, John

I saw the bitch's owner at the LKA on Friday. She told me the puppy you are talking about which had the hip problem died a couple of weeks ago aged 13.5 years! Now she is looking for a new puppy.

Is she still looking for a Flatcoat Polly, now that I have converted her friend over to Labradors? ;)

Best wishes, John

Converted from a flatcoat to a lab surely not

Yep Liberty! And just think, there are others trying to convert me the other way! ;)

Best wishes, John

Aaah a Flattie, I saw you with the flatties in the Gundog ring at Crufts, suits you sir

liberty :)

Thank you Liberty. There is no doubt that are a lovely breed. I know they are because all my friends keep telling me! ;)

Best wishes, John

No but was very tempted with a wire haired vizsla!

Hi all - when feeling the pups hips tonight, I also felt crackling there when she wriggled, so am beginning to wonder if there is either a hip problem or whether it is simply growing pains, that she has hurt herself somehow.  When I got her from the breeder, the mother trod on her quite hard when they were playing.  She's as bright as a button tonight, playing happily, no more Rimadyl (YUK) and when I took her for a short walk - ( I mean short - 20 yards up the street), she was galloping using both legs.  Thanks everyone for the advice and support.

It is so easy to get into a panic Jean! I know. Been there and got the tee shirt!

When my Anna was 8 weeks old and was sitting on my lap she suddenly decided to jump off over the arm of the chair. Her back foot slipped and went between my leg and the arm of the chair and left her hanging! She was screaming! I was sure there was permenant damage done. At 2 years old I had her scored because as a working Labrador I wanted to know just how bad the damage was before I did too much work with her. She was 2/2!

Why do we have dogs? They scare the life out of us when they are ill and when they are well we are scared that they might be ill but that we have somehow missed the signs!! I hate the lot of 'em!

Regards, John

John - it wouldn't be so bad if I hadn't lost my first Flattie last November aged 13, and my second Holly, who is only 7 has polycystic kidney disease and is on very borrowed time.  In fact today, she is poorly, feels sick, has to be tempted with food, but still likes to go to the beach.  You;re right - why do we do it - the heartache is awful, but on the other hand.............look at the pleasure they give.

Your right Jean, dogs are very special creatures and well worth all the heartache. Thats why we had them and also why we will have them again. The house would be a poorer place without them.

Regards, John

blue been to the vet today it not her hips or her knees it the mid toe back right,which is bursied so she on metacam for a week,these puppys what worry they bring on to us.

You're right Terri, but think what life would be without them!

Hope Blue soon gets better. :)

Best wishes, John

a lot cheaper and nice hoildays,

Wot's a holiday :-) ?   I've heard folk talk about them.

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

Hi all - news is not so bad!  The kneecap was dislocated and the vet has popped it back in.  He tried the other knee to see if it would pop, but it wouldn't and he wasn't going to push it, so that's also good.  It's unclear how long it has been out of course and could be a slight skeletal problem or could easily be trauma when she was playing with Mum and the other pup.  Vet says he will see her again in 4 weeks.  No pills, doesn't think she needs them and if he had to operate it would'nt be for a year at least.  So guess who is feeling much better!

Thanks for the advice and support.

Thats great news Jean. Knee caps can so easily be popped out at that age that it'a a wonder we don't hear of it happening even more often! Fingers crossed but it could well be that you will hear no more about it.

Best wishes, John

;)

lot for swim will stregthen the musals a round the knee cap,i would try and go to a doggie pool in your area.

Brie - finding a doggie pool in this area would be very difficult.  Hard enough to find a decent vet!.  No matter.  I will rest her and she can swim in the estuary later when she's bigger.

Pup is walking very strangely again and we will be sent to an orthopaedic specialist.  Both kneecaps move around at the slightest provocation.  If they are in place, she walks quite normally, if not, she walks bowlegged and hunched.  It's a worry, but at least I'm insured.

send me a your telephone number just to have a chat if you want too,

terri

I just revisited this forum and thought I would update it as my Flattie with the luxating patella is now 7.   She had 5 operations in all, as one leg failed, the pin came out, she had an MRSA infection in the joint, then physiotherapy, finally hydrotherapy.  All that before the was one and a half.

There is arthritis in the joint although the other leg is fine.  So if it hurts, she just doesn't use it!  If she runs on the beach for a while, then she will hold the leg up for about an hour, but apart from that she is a wonderful dog and we just don't over-exercise her.   I hope my comments will interest someone in the same position.

it is great to know she has done well

It does, my 3 year old Flattie had to have this op when he was 10 months old. He was messing around after a show on the beach (he had just won best AVNSC puppy!) when he skidded on seaweed covered rocks. He had one op and after following the recovery plan to the letter (well as near as you can with a young Flat) he was as if nothing had ever been wrong after about 4 months. he is a keen and active worker and is never still.
Only downside is that I wrote to KC for permission to show but even with vet reports and various critiques commenting on his good movement prior to this happening this was not granted on the grounds 'he would have an unfair advantage over other dogs who had not been surgically enhanced'! Hey ho though he is having a ball and taering round the woods with the rest of the pack enjoying life to the full.
I have been told he may suffer from arthritis in later life but we will worry about that when it happens.
Glad you finally got there with you dog.

I renecently saw in the kennel gazette a dog was granted permission to show a a PL surgery. seems a shame you couldnt get it.