Just wanted to sound off some of the other breeders out there.

I have a 5 year old Champion bitch who has had one litter 15 months ago. 

I first attempted to mate her as a maiden of 3 years plus, to a maiden dog of my won breeding who came to stay with us from the 8th day of her season, she was quite happy with his advances, but he was rather tentative and we ended up with him ejaculating outside the bitch when she pulled away at the crucial moment  and also she would do a very good impression of a stud dog herself, definately prefering to be on top.  This went on from day 15 to 18, at which point she got bored of the game, and told him where to go and he lost interest.

On her next season (age 3 years 8 months) I decided to do premate tests and give her suitor a chance, but get her to a proven dog (one I wanted to use on her a year later when I would be ready for a pup). 

Again same thing as last time, but dog wasn't loosing it as last time.  When it became apparent he would get knowhere and it was 3 days since ovulation we took ehr to our Imported boy and she was still not playing the game. 

At the end of day 16 with a bit of fussing and distraction from the dogs handlers he manged to penetrate and tie with her, much to her vocal objection.  We got a litter of four, and I was very pleased with the litter and kept a bitch pup.

She was a wonderful mother, rearing the four pups really well and producing gallons of milk.  She did panic at the birth of the first puppy, but once number two arrived she new exactly what she was about.

I decided to try and repeat the mating, thinking that , 1.) The dog had mangd her before and, 2.) that she might be more co-operative.  Couldn't have been more wrtong.  We tried holding her (handler got clawed arms for her pains).  Dog was Mad keen on day 15 which should have been ideal mating day.  when allowed to be free with him all she did was try and ride him.  She would allow him to mount her, but as soon as he was close to the mark she would buck and throw a wobbly.  We ended up with a brief mating, when the dog turned there was no tie.  We let them meet for the next 3 days, but she was not going to allow herself to be mated and we stopped trying on day 18.

How would you handle a further mating attempt with this bitch, if at all. 

This bitch returned to me as a wilful teenager at 8 1/2 months having never lived with oyther dogs, and I would think wouldn't have been closely associating with any diring her puppyhood until returning here where she is with bitches only.  She has always been very confident and freindly with other dogs, if somewhat exuberant and forceful in her play until she matured and l3earnt her manners.

Have decided to have the stud come to stay with us from the start of her next season, and discreetly supervise them once she reaches standing heat, but no hands on unless a mating occurs of course.  Could it be that she is actually worried about being mated/dominated by a strange dog, despite her seeming bravado.  Will familiarity breed contempt or foster trust and compliance.

As I have said before she shows plenty of libido during her seasons.  She happily hmps and is mounted by the other bitches, and at the peak of her seasons becomes very enamoured of her bedding:D

I just feel such a good bitch should produce more offspring, especially to another dog, but I am not prepared to try her with any young dog I fancy fort ehr as her behaviour could really put them off stud work, and most of the forceful experienced males are unsuitable for one reason or another (many being too closely related).

We had an import GSD that was like this because I think she was alone in quarantine for six months from 3 to 9 months

She was only ever successfully bred to three experienced stud dogs who took no notice of her behaviour including the yodeling throughout, throwing herself to the ground & generally being a real bitch

We had our own stud who had been selected to be bred to her by her breeder in Germany. but he was not experienced enough until she was having her third & final litter

She was very much the Alpha animal after my old bitch died & regularly bonked my BC stud dog whilst she wasn't in season, I always wondered whether she would have excepted him instead of a GSD male, but I would never had allowed them to produce puppies

Do you think leaving the stud and her to getwell aquainted and work it sout for themselves with me pretending not to be looking is the way to go, as I think the more people around and managing things the more worked up with the idea she got?

She lived with our stud dog except when in season but she was just the same with him, My BC stud was a totally different type of stud he would flirt while a lot usually then get on with his job. But he would play with the bitches went they were not in season, whereas the GSD boys just ignored the bitches when they were not in season

Your girl seems to be less dominant bitch than ours & she might well respond to a dog who has run & flirted before she was ready.  I know our best matings were when they just got on with it with supervision of course, GSD stus can get put off with too many helpers. Unless I knew the owners well I used to keep them out of the way(although they could watch via a window)& always had experienced help on hand just in case

I must admit I never really liked maiden bitches to my GSDs & all the BC bitches seemed to either be very willing or be on the wrong day-tried later in the season & there was no problem !

Sshe is my fourth generation bitch.  Her mother and Granmother were both real sluts, evn though her Mum is A;pha here she is more than happy to show the boys the way, as was her Granmother, who eben now is our chief humper :D

My oldest bitch was one of those, lie back and think of England types.  Her attititude being come on then if you must get on with it, not exactly engouraging to the male but c0-operative.  Generally bitches in our bred are easy to mate and whelp being very natural in their instincts.  Usual mating procedure is to let the pair loose to play in an enclosed area and watch to see how they get on, and to discreetly lend a hand to reassure restrain the pair when in the tie.  They are a very natural breed that are pretty sociable so minimum interference is usually needed.

I just don't know if a longer courtship will help get her into the idea, or might just make her more determined to avoid being mated, or make her less respectful of the male.  I suppose all I can do is give it a go.  She was not at all happy from the moment of arival at the stud dogs home this time, she really didn't want to be there at all.  She gives such an impression of being bolsh6y and cocksure, maybe it is all a front and she needs the reassurance of home surroundings, or conversely putting her in the driving seat will make things worse.

Teh boy has now mated 6 bitches and is a good litlte stud who is not easily put offf or bothered by handlers etc.  He also knows me very wel;, as I was his main visitor during his quarantine, he makes such a fuss of me at shows, so I don't think  he will mind being here.

You could try some Rescue Remedy (or just a very small shot of brandy on its own ;)) to help her chill out

Your import sounds like my GSD import very little ever put him off except the bitches owners, we used to send them off to the pub if they got very uptight. Usually as soon as they left the bitches got mated ! They trusted us, as I had two stud dogs at the time but my home bred boy was too much of gent if the bitches complained he walked away & ignored them. Obviously I wouldn't have cheated anyone & as the two boys only had one thing in common-they were both very very dark-if I had been dishonest it would have shown up in the puppies !

I think you should go for it the results might be spectacular-is she the bitch you having been doing so well with this year if so she is definitely worth the effort

I would say that being more familiar may help in this case, it sounds like you have tried everything else anyway ( apart from AI) so have nothing to loose.
Amos

Any chance of finding someone a bit stronger to hold her? I've done this a couple of times with  labs and spaniels, but then I'm a 6ft+ man. I once took my father-in-laws working cocker for a mating. Without a good firm hold on her collar she probably would have ended most dogs stud career in one go! (Very sweet natured bitch in all other ways though)

Interesting that Amos mentioned AI, as my first thought was that perhaps it would be a good opportunity to use foreign bloodlines, which I would presume to be viable in a breed such as yours?

I bet if a crafty mongrel from down the road got in with her, there would be no problems at all! ;-)

Best of luck whatever you try!

I have just had this problem with a bitch who was very snappy with my dog when he tried, and being a sensitive sort, he came and lay down next to me and didn't force the issue.  At the first try I assumed she just wasn't ready, but the owners and I tried every other day for 5 days with the same result, and then I felt we should leave it as she was probably past her time anyway.

The next season I insisted on a Premate, and on the specified day we tried again.  Still the same reaction, so we took her to my very keen older stud who lives with a friend.  She seemed to like him and stood while he mounted her, but as soon as he started to penetrate her, she became a whirling dervish and he slipped out.  This happened on 3 days running.  By then the owner was very upset because the bitch is over 3 and they desperately wanted a puppy from her to keep.  They had done all their homework, the bitch was superbly well bred, and it all seemed for nothing.

I then decided desperate measures were called for and we would use a young well-bred stud dog owned by a friend.  He is a big strong lad who isn't used very often and is therefore very keen indeed - with no time for niceties!  I just told the owners to hold her tight while I directed prodeedings from the back end.  He penetrated in seconds, and with his strong grip she was going nowhere, and they were tied for 30 minutes. Would you believe it, as soon as they turned she became flirty, giving him "Ooh you are a gorgeous boy" looks and her tail didn't stop wagging. She is now heavily pregnant.

So I guess that is probably the way to go - just hold her tight until the tie is achieved.  As Havoc says, I think you need someone strong to hold her, but it would be better if you could do it as she may get frightened and try to bite a stranger.

This is what we did try in the end but she did try to bite and clawed my friend and when we tried a muzzle she manged not only to roll over and get away but got that off too :D

We don't in general do that level of restraint at matings in our breed, and it is rather distateful to go that far, so we didn't push it after that, hoping that the short mating had been long enough.  She doesn't attempt to bite the dog just shake him loose in order to mount him.

I have had th4e offer of semen for her, or even to take her to US for mating, but the success rate and paperwork and costs seem so much for small chance of success.

That was going to be my suggestion to you.. but I agree the costs may be too great.

It is a nbit easier with smaller dogs as you just have to hold their front legs , must be  nightmare with a bit dog.

Thing is it is more than likely she wants things on her terms. One of my bitches would stand happy for my dog ( not that I let her) but when I took her to the stud dog you think we were murdering her. She was screaming and he had only looked at  her :-))

My Daisy is the same Blue, present her to a friends dog and she flirts, pushes her rear end into him, but as soon as the stud dog enters the room, she growls, barks......the stud dog owner says it's because she knows there is a MAN in the room.........lol.

Once tied she relaxes completely, to the point of having a 50 minute tie with her last mating........but the fuss she kicked up before was unbelievable!

Whe4n I first had her back it took two of us to cut her nairls.  She could throw all 15 1/2 stone that I weighed then around the room, I hung on fro grim death and won that battle and now I can sit her between my knees and do her front nails, but still ask my freind to do back ones as I don't want her to even once get free of me and think she can get away with not having them done :D 

It is amazing how strong a 20kg all muscle bitch can be.  I tyhink it is that square build, strong neck and loins that do it.

Yes she is the bitch who now has 9 CCs, two Group places, won the Champion Stakes at Windsor in 2002.

Her daughter this year won the Puppy stakes at Southern Counties (first in our breed since 1978) and also went puppy Group 3 at SWKA, so for both reasons I would like to try again.  3 of the four pups she had I would have been more than happy with, and the remaining one is no World beater but would be respectable if shown.  The sires breeders were keen for a bitch to go back to the US from this combination so I am more disappointed for them than anything.

Hi
Sometimes a bitch can behave totally different when in a strange environment with strangers.
It is interesting that you have always mated her in her environment - she is then showing dominant tactics of mounting etc - is she the head dog at you house of no. 2 in line?

I would definately mate her next time at someone elses home.

Also i have had girls here for breeding who refuse to stand - screaming and attempting to bite - take their owners away and the same bitch is happy to stand calmly and be mated.

Sharon

On the first (failed) attempt it wa my home, as it was easier for me to have the dog than to travel to the males owner who doesn't have the facilities really for mating.  the second time we did stay with her, and seh took us to our Import who lives with one of his other owners, and I left her there away from me thinking it might be my presence making her less co-operative.  They managed to get an assisted mating as she was going over, and we were lucky to get a small litter of four.

this time we took her to them again, and she seemed to know what was afoot right away, as soon as she was let into the mating area (a large walled and fenced Patio).  My freinds again let them flirt, and she was sghowing her normal behaviour, and we knew she had ovulated a couple of days earlier,  a this was day 15.

At home her mother is Alpha bitch, with my eldest bitch retired Alpha on almost equal terms.  She is above her daughter, and probably her Grandmother (who doesn't do hierachy as loing as she has a quiet life) and is obviously above her young daughter.  She is very independant and some would say dominat, but that isn't strictly truw, as she want to be in chartge of herself, not others.  She is willful and headstrong, but a lot of this I would put to lack of early discipline and training.  she is a real show girl, but one of thiose who are a handful to show :D

I dont know if the experience I had with my bitch might help at all:
4 year old (now)  always lived indoors with us,  very confident in all situations  and well behaved, sweet natured and normally very friendly with all other dogs and bitches.

Ist attempted mating season at nearly 3 yrs ; ovulation tested to check she was dead right as she did not ovulate until day 16 on the previous season ( she was tested to make sure all was "normal" in preparation for the next season). REady on day 16 again. She went to an experienced "bold" dog and turned from a sweet bitch into a snarling, biting beastie attempting to attack the dog, it was  really frightening. No mating.

Next season: 6 months later - ovulation tested again - ready on 17th day. Went to stay at a very ex. kennel to go to a different dog, from day 6 in the hope she would get to know the dog and settle,  same thing happened. I was very disappointed and thought we would not try again, and that she was destined not to breed. I was not going to try again, partly as I was worried that she may hurt the dog or handlers - she really did go crazy -  and that " If she's that against the idea then perhaps nature knows best". But the SDO said she was perfectly happy to try again and that the dog was "unputtoffable". He is a CH  show dog and I was worried she might mark him and spoil his career

Third season after first attempt: This time she went to stay at the same kennel to visit the same dog ,on day one, and the SDO requested that I wasn't present at the mating when she was eventually  ready. She was ready on day 12 and was mated with no fuss at all 3 days running!!!

Now, who  knows if it was the fact that I wasn't there at the mating this last time, or that her being ready at a  more "normal" time meant it was a better,more fertile season with more hormones whizzong around or that she at last trusted the dog/handlers. All I know that she is expecting and is very well. I was truly amazed when the SDO rang me to say the deed was done - I NEVER thought she would get mated and would not have believed how nasty she became when mating was attempted the first two times if I hadn't seen it myself. She is sweetness personified as a rule.
Just to add that I have known the SDO for many years and know how calm, experienced and well respected she is - I would never have left her with a stranger.

We had a problem with one of ours - a very sweet bitch usually - even very sweet indeed!   Using our own dog - she had fallen in love with a neutered dog we have, and wouldn't have anything to do with her 'real' husband.

We took her down to Brenda White in Southampton (sure she won't mind me telling you)  who had them mated before you could say knife, but it did take three of us in the right position (oh gosh - can't believe I typed that), and very little protest.

Remains to be seen if it's worked.

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

ROFLMAO Jo & I thought you were a lady ;)

Bitches are strange aren't they?!

A number of years ago we had a bitch that had done well in the ring & we decided when she was 3 we would have a litter from her, we had our own male which had also done well in the ring & he had sired a number of quality puppies & was a very dominant male (even with people when a bitch was in season) our bitch stood for him & he kept penetrating her but no tie at all! I watched a little more closely & as the dog was going for the tie she would drop her vulva & shift position just ever so slightly so he fell out. This went on & on during the optimum time. Anyway we had no puppies.
The next season we tried with a champion male & the exact same thing happened. To cut a long story short at 6 years old i became despereate so decided to give her to a top breeder let her stay there with her dogs & let her mate her for me as i thought it was all my fault, she stayed with her for a whole year.
The bitch is 10 years old now & never had a litter she lives as a pet & is quite happy doing her thing, she just would not tie with any dog & IMO it must certainly be up to the bitch to ensure the tie. She had lots of slip matings but not a single puppy produced & the premate tests said she was ovulating.

Maybe some bitches just don't want to be mothers & this is there way of saying no thanks. Either that or we show them for such a long period & they get it into their heads they are the best & nothing else will ever be good enough for them!LOL

well what about bitches that do every thing they should stand on the right day, do every thing right and as soon as they turn she goes mad.  if both dogs are kept side by side she is fine but as soon as they go back to back she goes mad crying, screaming trying to roll over trying to lay down. every thing but stand still.  we got them to both lay down and she decided to stand.  and all this for about 45 mins.  now that was hard work

I'd let them stand side by side in that case.
:)

Actually one of the stud dogs we use always insists on standing side by side, he likes to whisper sweet nothings in her ear,  no joking he actually licks her face, such a lovely dog!

oorrrrrrrr he sounds nicer than my husband.

as soon as we know what she wanted she go to stand side by side and she was then fine