Just come back from the vets with the cats (inc. booster) and while there a couple and their adult son came in with their two dogs both GSD's they'd had a fight; and boy must it have been a fight. Both were bleeding; the Mom had her ear torn and a bad bite to her shoulder and side of her face and the daughter had a bad bite to her top lip and a bite to her eye that was closing up, she was also bleeding from her foot/leg and all in all, it pretty much looked like a disaster all around. The two bitches were still growling at each other in the waiting room, and even trying to get to one another even for the few seconds they were there.
The man took the younger bitch and the son took the older bitch into different vets. They had even had to phone their son out of work to come in two cars as they couldn't get the two in one, without a fight!!!! :(
  They were all still in shock and it all happened over nothing it seems -  the lady stayed in the waiting room with me, and said she called them both in from the garden and all of a sudden all hell broke loose; the dogs are Mom 6 daughter 2. The lady thought as they were mother and daughter they wouldn't fight!
But it had taken her husband and other son and son in law to split them up.

  My question do bitches fight regardless of relationship - I assume the younger bitch would be becoming an adult at 2 and ready to hold her own. Will they ever get back to an even/livable relationship. Or will they always have to be careful now?
  When I went into the vets he said it was sad, and he didn't think they would live together peacfully now :(
  All in all a sad situation for the family - makes you think about mixing two bitches though. 

Karen

I wouldn't have 2 bitches - not even mum and daughter - I know they *can* get on, but I wouldn't want the risk. I'd say those 2 will have to be kept apart forever now because bitches just don't stop :( I'd rather have a couple of males anyday.

I would rather keep one of each together.  It does not matter what, if any, relationship there is between two dogs/bitches there is always the possibility of a fight.

me too. I'd have two males over 2 bitches...but a male and a bitch preferably (thats what i have now and they have disagreements - but he backs down nd she lets him off) :D

  I tell you Chloe, it really really made me think - I had no idea this could be the outcome - I have seen scuffles etc before but these two even 50 minutes after the fight were still going for each other and even when they came out of the vets they went for each other - Lord knows what they will do when they get home - apparently their son in law had been bitten too :(   
  They left in two cars too.

It convinces me a dog and bitch for me. 
Karen

Maybe we've just been lucky but we have three adult bitches and one entire male all living in the house . Two of the bitches are mum and daughter and are 11 and 7 - they've never had a cross word in all that time and in fact mum still cleans her daughters ears for her before bedtime !. . The other bitch is 3 and is the pack leader - although she sometimes growls at the other dogs she has never fought with them - despite her having a litter of 4 week old pups at the moment.

We used to have 2 other male dogs as well, they were much worse than the bitches - often picking fights and squaring up to each other.

Hi, I have mother & daughter (staffords) who get on great. However, I would never leave them together when I'm not around. I know someone who's  litter sisters got into a fight which resulted in the death of one. I think it also depends on the breed.
trace.

I think it depends on the breed too. Poodles seem to cope reasonably well together regardless of sex although there are exceptions to the rules!

Jesse

I also have mother daughter son and father and a hybrid (male) all together. All fixed except the dad, I did have problems when the mom was still intact but since I have spayed her no more problems. The son did try to bully his dad but that never went to far and the son is the bottom of the pack. Pack order dad, mom, Hybrid, Daughter and son. I have noticed that the dad backs down to his daughter :D she's bigger then him :D

the problem is, if 2 males square up to eachother then there may be a little scuffle and thats it - bitches will fight to the death if not stopped.

typical women - cant let anything lie lol

Andy

We have two bitches and two dogs living together and are all fine but dogs have had one big fight which ended at the vets, saying that they both went in the boot of the car together and are fine now!

OUr old bitch used to have a lift of the lip at other bitches and they backed off (she was top bitch) and they only bitch who challenged was her 10 mth old daughter.

Grandparents have had up to 4 bitches together and only had two that had to be watched and we think that was youngster pushing oldie out of the pack!  they have trouble with the dogs!!!

Personally I like it to be equal dogs and bitches

Rox

So you are basicaly all saying it depends on the "dogs" themselves.

Karen

I guess so.  I think alot of it depends if you get a submissive dog/bitch or a "leader" dog/bitch

It all depends, even to the extent that I think that it is out of our control in how we bring them up. 

Rox

   Yes I suspect it does...having happily had a dog and bitch living in complete harmony for over 15 years, I think I tend to agree, the bitch though was very, very bossy and the dog so laid back he could be taken as horizontal :) A bitch pup was  introduced and she fitted in well, the older two passed on and the younger bitch I discovered was incredibly bossy, but has obviously curtailed this when the older bitch alive.
   Now I have one bitch almost 17 months - who I know is happy to play/meet/socialise with other dogs but I also know she is a in your face bitch - I was go as far as to say a top bitch. So either I get a bitch who is submissive or happy to be second, or a dog, and hope they get on?

Karen     

I've only had trouble with bitches that I haven't bred myself, but they are all from similar lines.  Bonita was my first one she hated her grandma Dilita and used to pull the hair out of Dilita's head, even now after many years apart Bonita still has a go at her grandma.

Then there's Lana, yes the break-in at my house was when she started but again, funnily it is a grandmother granddaughter thing, she hates her grandma Lydia and vice versa.  Carina, Lydia and Dilita adore each other, Lydia is Dilita's daughter and Carina is Lydia's daughter.  The only time that I ever have any grumblings is when it's season time, luckily they nearly all come in together so it doesn't last long.

Strange thing bitches!!

If it's any consolation my mother and i fought years ago and we can never be in the same room ever again :D

I would say so.  I have 5 bitches, being five generations, each being daughter to the one before.

Now I know that Jackie H had problems bewtween two unrelated bitches, but other breeders I knwo have kept generations of bitches together, and only had problems with males in mixed sex households, and between bitches of similar age or status very occaasionally.  Usually once pack order is established and accepted then things are peaceful with humans ultimately leaders.

So Brainless, what would you consider a "big enough" age gap between a dog and pup? That would not "fingers crossed" cause you problems.

Karen

about 3 years.  Most medium to larger breeds become fully mentally mature in the status sense at around 3 or 4 years old in my experience.  A puppy would almost aautomatically view the 3 year old as superior, and by the time it reached puberty and real aduolthood the other would be about four and fairly well settled as superior to the youngster.

A gap of say a year could find you with a pushy younger dog trying to take over from and easy going or less dominat two and a half year old, as his position is not yet well established.  That is my gut feeling anyway.

Thanks.

KAREN

I've found this thread really interesting.

I have (amongst others) a staffie x collie and a gsd bitch, who used to live in a kennel together as they got on so well.  They have similar temperaments and both are quite dominant, but not overly so.
One day, I brought them out of the kennel together for their run and they tried to literally rip each other apart.  It was the worst thing I've ever seen, and it took three of us, hubby, me, and my mum, to part them.
Both of them are fine with other dogs and bitches, but they hate each other now.

It's horrible, but sometimes, bitches really would fight to the death if they could.
I've seen males fighting (not my own) and it seems they've usually sorted themselves out.

If I only had two, and they lived in, it'sd be a dog and a bitch.  I have 8 at the mo...two live in....a dog and a bitch!!

Lisa

I have a mother and daughter who get on great. The younger 1 being 2and half. They have never ever had a fight or annoyed each other in any way.
On the other hand I have an Akita who is same age as my eldest Husky. They cant live together because of the fighting in their early years.
Could breed have anything to do with it. Huskies are so friendly and laid back.

We have never had dogs ever fight of either sex BUT I have been a bit confused by the behaviour of one of my girls.

2 of my girls are only 10 weeks apart.  The younger of the 2 have always been the slightly more dominant but never fighting an occasional growl.

My younger one was away for a week being mated. When I brought her back in the door she charged right at the older girl and started fighting with her. I grabbed her, lifted her up and my other dog was still attached.  Boy did I get the fright of my life it took some seperating.  This was a week ago now but we have kept them apart since or unless we have been there. I near passed out.

The problem that worries me the most is my husband can actually have them in the same room although they stay at opposite sides , they will not fight. If I appear the one that was mated goes straight for her. She doesn't get to her of course as my hubby just has to shout and she stops in her tracks (Yes he is the boss as far as they are concerned).  So why is she so bad when I appear.   They are both such loving girls to each other normally. 

I pray it ends soon and it not an on going thing now..

I think it depends on the breed and on the individual dogs.  I've been in both whippets and daxies, and also had mixed breeds.  Always had bitches, always at least 2 and never had any problems.  My breeder has 6 bitches and to my knowledge everyone is happy and no scuffles.  My current two - a whippet mix and a purebred have only ever got into a couple of fights over some very special treats.  Both broken up quickly and just as quickly forgotten about.  There's never been anything territorial and no 'posturing' at all.

Just my .02

Wendy

I have 2 dogs, a dobermann who's 9 and a lab who's 4, and 2 bitches - both 4 and from the same litter. The bitches get along fine, its always the males who fight.

This didn't help at all but oh well!

My first two bitches were mother and daughter and they never had a cross word as far as I can remember. I think though it was because Min the pup always knew her place and never tried to change it.

We then had Moose and she remained bottom of the pile and then when Mars was PTS Min became top girl with Moose staying in second place.

MB then came along and she is very submissive but has got a tendancy to try and challenge but only when chewies are about and will try and gather everybody elses chews. This can result in a few spats so they are always given under strict supervision ! I think this stems from the fact that she was the runt of the litter and maybe had to fight to get her food amongst all her other litter mates. She was from a working kennel and was brought up outside rather than in a home environment.

We do however make sure that they know we are the top dogs and that what we say goes and so they always know where they stand :)

It was a question that i pondered on only the other day ,when people keep their offspring is there a time when mum doesnt see her pup as a pup but just another dog?

I have a mum (now aged 11) and her daughter (9) and sons (4). The 'youngsters' still accept being scolded by their mum, and the boys accept scolding from their sister, but not from each other. The boys never challenge the girls for anything. But if the 'kids' are too OTT then mum will run and ask me to 'sort them out'. It seems we have a very decided hierarchy!
:)

Can I ask JG while this hierarchy was establishing itsself did you keep out as much as possible and let the dogs sort it out?

I had an older bitch and got a rescue younger one at about a year all was fine until the rescue was about 5 when she started going for the older bitch who defended herself but never held a grudge or started anything.

I put this down to 2 things one the younger bitch had had the anti season injection and had started to be a bit funny with me I sorted that and she transferred to the other bitch. The main thing I think caused it went back to when i got the younger bitch. I put away all the toys incase there was trouble so the older bitch never really put her in her place.

Since then I've had dog and bitch and now have same older bitch plus 3 year old dog and 9 month old rescue pup. Older bitch has been allowed to tell boys exactly who is in charge and all live in harmony. I still wonder if I'd done things differently if the 2 bitches would have been fine.

Yes, I pretty much let them sort themselves out, though I must have had some influence because ever since we got our first dog we have always fed the oldest one first etc. The two previous 'top dogs' have both since passed on, and with both deaths everyone 'moved up' a space as it were. Both the previous two were excellent at ensuring pups knew their place, and so is the 'mum'. Neither bitch was spayed until we found we were keeping the boys, and we never had problems at season times - and they didn't bring each other in either. Maybe we were just lucky!

I have also done the oldest one 1st thing, me just thinking he would be over her but it seems that she is over him .I left them to sort out their places and because Ebony is more adventurous,nosey,etc Zak just backed off and accepted bottom place .

We are weighing up the pros and cons of maybe getting another dobe,my thinking being after seeing how Zak and Ebony behave Zak will accept another male better than Ebony would another bitch.Although they both get along with both male and female , living with 2 bitches would not be wise.

Ella.x.

I have 3 gsd bitches and a lurcher bitch.All get on great and have only ever fought twicein 5 years and even this was when the two younger ones were reaching maturity and wanted to be top dog. Even then they weren't huge fights just little squabbles.When they sorted themselves out the hierarchy was lady(6), Jade (4),Lucy (3) and Anna (1) so it all goes in age. Suppose it just depends what the dogs are like in themselves. All of mine are very submissive to Lady because she always keeps on top of them but sometimes anna and jade will still try to push their luck with each other. Suppose I'm just really lucky but I wouldn't get another bitch I think that it would be just too much,although they are very loving towards each other. They all still clean each other like pups and never stop playing with each other.I would always trust mine completely with each other which is very nice

I have mother and daughter labs and they are brilliant together. Mum still 'babies' her daughter, cleaning her and licking her ears and rear end.  Daughter also cleans her mum.  My friend also has mother and daughter labs and has now another 2 year old bitch and they all get on fine. 
Lorna

hi,

My irish staffy has just had a litter of 6. We were going to keep the only daughter, but we really like one of the males.

If we keep the male, would he (once old enough) want to have sex with his mum? that would be a real problem!!

thanks,

Hi Jopaling,

Well, there aren't many certainties in this life but re. >If we keep the male, would he (once old enough) want to have sex with his mum?< I think it's fair to say you could put a bet on it - what's more, come the right time Mum would be quite happy to let him

Perhaps best to stick with keeping the little girl and try to place your favourite boy with someone who'll be able to visit regularly - and keep away when told too :D

Congratulations on your babies anyway,

Regards Teri ;)

thanks teri

sounds like good advice. its a real shame though coz the little boy is going to grow into a stunning dog!!

jo

>If we keep the male, would he (once old enough) want to have sex with his mum?

He most certainly will! And she'll be happy to co-operate!

that is just wrong!!!!

No, natural.

Like the other posters he will certainly want to once his mum is at the height of her season, i like you was in this position i wanted to keep a bitch but had a far better constructed male puppy. In the end i kept the male pup who is now 5months old, but it was my girls last litter so spaying was on the agenda. good luck with your babies

>>>that is just wrong!!!! <<<<

dogs arent aware of incest

I would never have two females. Just a male and a female. Then they wont fight. It makes me think thought, how do breeders do it? I don't have a dog yet, but I am getting a female Brittany pup. I'm sticking with one dog. Then, she's bound to get along! lol I personally think it depends on the breed. But, I really only want one dog. The problem is that people don't consider the breed when getting multiple dogs. I only want the one girl, just to avoid fights. It all depends on the dogs themselves. I mean, that's what I think, I'm not a vet or anything. But, that is what I suspect. I know I wont have problems with my pup as she will be the only dog. My mother and I fought for years and almost every time we saw eachother. But, she usually would start it by constantly asking really annoying questions about my relationship with my boyfriend. Plus, she would never leave me along and came in every five miniutes. So Brainless, do you really thinks it has to do with the age? More than three years is quite an age gap for dogs. I hope my information is helpful. Personally, I find this thread really interesting. My girl wont fight. She will be the only dog, but will probably have a few bahvioral issues because of that, right? It really depends on the breed and individual dog. I don't have a dog right now, but I will be getting a female Brittany pup. She will be my first dog, and I guarentee she wont be a fighter. I was thinking about this thread for a while before I could answer it. My pup is a purebred Brittany. I think it's just important to establish yourself as hierarchy and let the dogs sort it out themselves. Yes, that is probably the best solution. I also believe in the oldest one first thing. My pup is a gorgeous female. I'm only gonna have her, no other dogs. I better get going now, it's getting late over here and I have to go to work in the morning at 7am. Hey Jopaling, congradultions on your new litter of pups. I really think that is wonderful! Dogs will mate within their family. It is quite wrong in our society. But, it is very natural to them. He will be very eager once his mom comes in season. Incest is very wrong to us, but not too dogs.

-Aleasha

Hi Brittany,

It's not set in stone that keeping two or more bitches means future fights ;)  I keep both sexes and none of my bitches have ever had more than a grumble at one another - thankfully!  I know some can have serious problems but just wanted to point out that it's not definitely going to turn out that way.  Guess is depends on the individual characters of the bitches and of course how they are brought up too. :)

Just also wanted to point out that you deciding to only have one dog certainly won't mean that you can expect "behavioural issues" - an awful lot of people don't have more than one dog.  It's not cruel - probably more sensible really when you add up costs of food, vets, insurance, doggie sundries and of course vacuum cleaners, replacing carpets, sofas etc etc.  :D

Regards,  Teri;) 

Hi Brittany! Many people keep only bitches for decades and never have fights between them! It's just that if two bitches do fight, the fights are more serious than with two dogs, or dog and bitch (who can also fight!). I hope your bitch won't be a fighter, but there's no way you can guarantee it, I'm afraid.
:)

I have mother and daughter who have never had a fight in over 2 years. They got on great and worship each other.
On the other hand I have an Akita bitch who used to get into serious fights with my older Husky in their early years and have not lived together for about 5 years.
Can breed of dog have anything to do with it. Huskies are very friendly and laid back while Akita CAN be very agressive to other dogs.

I don't think its breed related. My breeds could not be more laid back but I had a problem with two sisters who suddenly went from being inseparable to a real spite a few years back. I've always had a mixed but mainly bitch pack and never had trouble with fighting before or since. The bitch spite between the sisters started a few weeks after I'd lost a very good long time pack leader. The new pack leader (an old male) was just emerging and he was never much good at the job. I've always wondered if my old lady had still been alive would she have seen signs that I couldn't see and the not very sure of himself male couldn't cope with and nipped thing in the bud. The male didn't last long in the boss job and seemed very grateful to give it up as a young bitch who had 'alpha' written all over her from baby puppyhood matured. Since she took over all has been calm and order again.

As to the sisters I tried everything including a behaviourist (tho' I have little faith in them) but one was becoming a bully with other dogs as well as to her sister and the smaller sister was going from a very confident, naughty dog to a nervous wreck although they were being kept entirely separate at this stage. In the end I rehomed the larger bitch with a lovely couple who already had her older half brother under a co-ownership agreement. She instantly settled down to become the nice friendly dog she had been before and the smaller sister who stayed with me regained all of her zest for life within a few weeks. Moral of the story - imho - true bitch spites are rare but when they do happen the only safe and sensible solution is to rehome one.

Hi,

I have 4 Golden Retrievers,2 males and 2 bitches that all live together happily with no fighting.The only time we separate is when the girls are in season :-)Age range 10 months - 6yrs

Briony :-)

I suppose I should add to this myself, as I started it. :)

Well despite the last sentence of my post

>>>>>It convinces me a dog and bitch for me<<<<<<<

It seems I told an untruth becasue I now have two bitches Sal 2 and Tess 5 months. They are half sister and so far so good. Fingers crossed.

Karen

My in-laws have a westie bitch whos 3 and are getting another westie bitch pup next week do you think they will get along? Another thing do you think only dogs are lonely dogs bailey is treated as a baby would dread to think how he would react introduced to new puppy in our house. Someone said they need their own kind of company.

I had 2 bitches for years with only one fight as the younger one was about 18 months - but it was soon forgotten and the younger one was happier being the under-dog.

I think it all depends on the temperament of the dogs, one dominant and one submissive would get on better than 2 dominant ones. I have a male at the moment and the bitch lets him pretend he's pretend he's boss until there's food around!

But both of them know that the real boss is ME!