Sorry JeanGenie, but for me this argument just doesn't hold water. We have changed dogs initially to fit the standard WE set in the first place. Where and why should it be set in stone that something can't be changed. That precludes any improvement in any breed. Any potential for improvement would be dismissed instantly, and how can that be good sense? The opposite of change is stagnation. In my view one of the problems with the Kennel Club is this draconian approach. We now know that some of the standard for some breeds has ill effects on health, but that's OK, because it's what the originator of the breed intended. Time has moved on, we shouldn't refuse to move with it, and not even consider it as an option - how short sighted. I too am not just referring to GSD's as you can see. Accepting long coats or different colours into a breed is the least of the problems!
What do you think of the health issues that breed standards have wrought?

Long coated and white GSD etc are not a new breed that has been created...they are GSD who are non standard.The Long coat is a fault in the GSD because the coat is not waterproof which is of no use to a working dog....so I cannot see the good in allowing the standard to be changed to accomodate them.
Archer

Just playing devils advocate (because I really dont know much about GSDs) but a long coat never seems to make any difference to a working sheepdogs ability to work or withstand the weather.

Also, most people that work dogs will tell you that a good dog is never a bad colour. I've never really seen the logic in excluding a naturally occuring colour from a breed unless it increases the predisposition to medical conditions.

However, for my money massive substance and the ability to work hard do not go hand in hand. The dog in Moonmaidens picture looks a smart looking animal to my untutored eye.

Hello Havoc,

Re > Just playing devils advocate (because I really dont know much about GSDs) but a long coat never seems to make any difference to a working sheepdogs ability to work or withstand the weather <

Depending on the country of origin, in some breeds a long coat would be essential however in the GSD for example, the longer coated dogs tend to have a softer textured coat which is less weather proof than that of the correctly fitting GSD coat.

Re no wrong colour in a good working dog - shepherds don't use BCs with too much white, don't even train them to see if they would be any good.

Regards, Teri :)

Which health issues are you meaning?

Hi ChinaBlue,

Re your comment   >We have changed dogs initially to fit the standard WE set in the first place<  this is not entirely accurate.  The majority of dog breeds are centuries (or more) old so their physical appearance was bred for by our ancestors who "created" breeds for certain purposes mainly of work (excluding the Toy breeds here for obvious reasons), and who having found they could successfully breed on the same recognisable type physically, mentally and characteristically then developed something which future generations inherited and have striven to maintain - whether this be for a guarding, sheperding, hunting breed etc.

Re: >  We now know that some of the standard for some breeds has ill effects on health, but that's OK, because it's what the originator of the breed intended.<  Again, this is an inaccuracy.  The "originators" of breeds had specific puproses for them in mind hence some had to be large and powerful to guard or bring down heavy prey, some needed to be lean and athletic for hunting and coursing smaller prey, others - notably terrier types - had to be within certain size constraints depending on their quarry but needed feisty and tenacious characters larger than themselves ;)  and so on, and so on.

Regards, Teri

Tried to add to the above post that thankfully changes in breed standards are rare and normally not made to fit the current fashion in a breed but to ensure the original wording is more coherent - particularly re temperament.

Darn laptop

Teri :)
 

Well said JG - that's the bottom line in every breed.

Teri :)

Actually the UK fans prefer to call their dogs Alsatians to quote Tony Fox "I want to put the Alsatian back into the GSD" Another top "Alsatianist Roy Brandon has never even called his dogs Alsatian(GSD) & there are lots of people who own the dogs based on the 1950 standard that INSIST their dogs  are called "Alsatians"& in the eyes of most of the GP that is just what they want they to be called. You clearly know very little about the "English"side of the breed very few of them refer to their dogs as GSDs mainly they call them Alsatians & are proud to do so. These people also deride ALL German dogs as thin slab sided cow hock rubbish, I took great delight in telling one of them the dog he was admiring in the back of my car & who he offered me good money for was one of those crappy dog he had just been slagging off & unlike the dog he had just sold to do Working Trials my dog had a 0:0=0 hip score & his had one of 106 =53:53 ie it had no hip jont at all. This breeder is still breeding without Xrays etc & is sucessful in his side of the breed

My dogs have always been GSDs as I have never owned a dog with any "Alsatian"breeding from the 1950s even though my first GSD was born in the 1960 she was one of Gwen Barringtons from two GSD German imports

My father owned a triple grandaughter of Ch Avon Prince of Alumvale the darling of the Alsatianists of the ti,es & just like him she was a fear biter very shy & was PTS after a very bad unprovoked biting incident she could never be walked outside of our property as she was too nervous, Her breeder did want my father to mate her to her brother as she(the breeder)thought she was a lovely bitch & would have had her back after she attacked my brother(50 years later he still bears the scars on his legs)to breed from

I always state that ALL GSDs should be bred for temperament & health however those of the old school who like the standard as it was in the 1950's with the temperament described as having a noted suspicion of strangers(ie windy & shy)usually fail to Hip score their dogs & bitches & rarely blood test their makes

I actually get a lot of nasty private messages from the fans of the long coat &"white"GSD fans who see my insistance that ALL breeding stock should be X rayed & blood tested including one breeder who claims his "white"GSDs do not have HD at all but never X rays, I took my E mail address off my profile as the messages were being sent in emails by the bucketful

Please note the only GSD BOB winner to have shown a bad temperament in the group ring at Crufts was an"English"type

As for the pekes dying if exercised the Yakee dogs are exercised every day by their owners & certainly do not die of heart attacks & there is a chap who jogs every day with his show Bulldog for around 5-7 miles Neither breed would be one I own I must add as they do nothing for me

So before engaging fingers on the keyboard engage brain & read the posts all the way through

As for longcoats I have no desire to own one as like the dogs above they do not appeal to me neither do the "whites" however as long as the dogs are not being touted as "rare""unusual""valuable"& the coat length or colour are not being the aim of the breeding(which as with all dogs should be temperament & health equally then type & breed standard) The trouble is in the eyes of Joe Public the "Alsatians"have the correct coat & The GSD is a long hair. But if yours is what you want fine, just don't harp on about why they get knocked at shows because they do not fit the breed standard, if you want the breed standard changed then persuade the Kennel to change it to make all coats & colours acceptable-the only thing is then the people with dogs with floppy ears, dippy back, bad temperaments etc etc etc will also want them writing in the breed standard & you will no longer have s GSD

Try this test take a correct coated GSD & a long coat swimming or in the pouring rain not just for a few minutes but for 12+ hours, then check the dogs The correct coated dogs correct under coat will have protected the dog the longcoat with it open top & bottom coat will not have protected it & the dog will be saturated-I know as I had a SAR trained dog in the 1970's & we were out on the moors searching for well over 12 hours the police dog that was searching with us was a long coat & had to be taken off the search after 2 hours as his very experienced handler feared for the dogs health. My boy was a working & show dog & thank god found the guy who had gone missing some 15 miles away from where he was thought to be. The police dog was taken to the vets & found to have hyperthermia due to being soaked to the skin. My boy was just towelled off & put in a warm kennel & dry completely in a few minutes

One reason there are a lot fewer longcoats working in such conditions Like the SARDA dogs tend to be correctly coated GSDs, labs & BC's because they have coats that protect them from all weathers

I prefer ISDS working bred BC's why ? because they are bred to work & not to just be pretty show dogs They have two coats & most working shepherds prefer the smooth coat because the coat does not attract mud & snow the same way a long coat does not because it looks better- me I just like want is under the skin as I don't work mine to sheep at present(did in the past & I longed to have a smooth coat in bad weather even though my boy was the apple of my eye & a dog of a lifetime his b long coat collecetd mud like a magnet)

Do not turn this thread into a personal insult on myself, I have had GSDs for over 45 years & I know my dogs faults & they all have some fault, I also know my three breeds quite well the GSD & BC have been my breeds for most of my life & the cavaliers for the past 12. I am involved with rescue & the rescue has no prejudice against any type colour or coat(although some times the kennels look like the white & longcoat rescue because of the dogs that are got rid of to our wonderful lady)My friend has too lovely rescued long coat GSDs They both wear a waterproof coat in bad weather when she goes out riding with them as they have both had problems through getting soaking wet in bad weather when they have been caught out, she now carrying them with her all the time.

Edited to add
Must add blues are a dilute & the dogs have light  almost tellow eyes these would make hem very hard to work sheep with(after all they are German SHEPHERD dogs) like a light eyed Border or Bearded collie There are good reasons whiy blues & other non standard colours are just that non standrad colours)

Like you China Blue I am offended by the statement of "snobbery" of long haired shepherd owners as I too own one, and am very proud of her. The snobs in my eyes are the ones who have to parade their dogs round a show ring to show off their PERFECT looking dog which conforms strictly to this "Breed Standard", and when they win a prize that too is shewn off, how boring. My dog is quite happy to go long walks in the woods, meet other people with their dogs, get filthy dirty on many exciting adventures........the list is endless. Yet why can people be so nasty about this issue? Someone said earlier on in the thread, something like it was ok for the odd throw back in a litter to be long haired. What happens if a show "Breed Standard" Breeder has a litter and one does turn out to be long haired are they PTS because of their imperfection? A book I have says; the following analysis is a summary of the key points of the Breed Standards of the KC................ Alert,well balanced, powerful and well muscled,the German Shepherd's working ability should be immediately apparent. This ability is paramount and the dog's looks should never take precedence. If I do not want to show my dog, why shouldn't she have a long coat. I have met Policemen training their Shepherds (some long coated,wonder if they realise it is a crime) on odd occaisions, and they were very impressed with her temperament, behaviour and intelligence. Beauty & Brains.

Hi Sue,

Re your statement > The snobs in my eyes are the ones who have to parade their dogs round a show ring to show off their PERFECT looking dog which conforms strictly to this "Breed Standard", and when they win a prize that too is shewn off, how boring.<

Please remember that dog shows were originally invented for *parading* the best stock for working and breeding on from - it was not about *showing off* and, to what I would hope are the majority, still isnt    Had it not been for these experienced breeders and stockmen, religiously breeding to a Standard, none of us today would have ANY distinct breeds over which to squabble ;)

Incidentally, some of the most successful people in my own breed have no evidence to be seen in their homes that they've even been to a show never mind won multiple CCs etc.  My own dogs have enjoyed a fairly restricted but successful show career but I have no rosettes or Green cards in public view - I return the rosettes to the donating society and CCs and RCCs live in a folder ;)

Regards, Teri 

For your information long coats are not PTS by show breeder but sold to pet/obedience homesas are blues, unlike White Boxers that can be deaf

The BOB from Crufts two years ago had a litter to a german dog she had two longcoated puppies & they were sold at a normal price no more or less than a normal coated puppy. Unlike a lot of "pet"bred longcoats these puppies were from hip scored & haemophillia tested(sire)parents that fitted the breed standard, as luck would have it the two puppies were apart from the length of coat were quite nice & followed the breed standard(they were black & gold)

What makes you think show dogs don't go for long walks etc, mt cavaliers are at two shows this weekend, not that you can tell they are show dogs as they have all been gardening & playing in the garden with my rescue GSD, so look more like street urchins than show dogs, however come the weekend they will have been bathed & cleaned up & true show dogs at least for a few hours

My GSDs used to do WT & Obedience & had probably more exercise to keep them fit for the prolonged gaiting used to assess GSDs conformation & fitness. I think you equate showing all breeds to a once/twice up & down & a triangle ! LOL I wish when I was actively showing & handling my GSDs each class could take an hour plus to assess & most of that was gaiting at the trot a lot harder to maintain than a walk in the woods believe me(hence the use of pro handlers in "international" type GSD shows

I hope you are training your GSD to use its brains in Obedience or WT or Schutzhund or KCGC if not that ability will be going to waste

Do you tell Tony that him parading his dogs in the obedience ring  is showing off ? after all obedience is really now just dressage for dogs with a retreive & scent thrown in for good measure. I know Tony quite well & have even given him one of those awards you so despise(1st in B )albeit it with a WSD

I sense rather a lot of tension and agression in this thread. Could I ask you all to re-read the recent thread regarding the Forum's Terms of Service.

Terms of Service

Please pay particular attention to the final sentence.

Thank You

Well thats me told off

It's certainly gone quiet .......

Teri  ;)

& no one has guessed the breeding of the dog in the link yet either I think it is so obvious too!-if you know your GSDs that is

Have looked at the dog Moonmaiden. I couldn't hazard a guess as I haven't studied intensively the history of the German and English lines. I don't feel that this lack of study should prevent me from having opinions and preferences. All I would say is what a wonderful looking dog!

We agree on one thing though, that you can't over socialise a GSD. At least in that respect my girl would impress you muchly!!!!

trying to go back to the oringinanl subject abit. what happens with CCs.?
do both types get them?
do the "german" types get shown differently at champ level, ?
what happens at crufts for istance,do the two types comptete against each other?

Hi,

Just wanted to add a little,I grew up with GSD'S these would have been the German type and love this type,however I have seen some very nice English type however if I was going to show GSD I would every time choose the German oldfshioned type :-)

When I first got married I looked at several breeders and discovered my partner at the time was not 100% sure of the breed so for me I never went down the route of getting one despite my love of the breed.I had always admired Acresway Gundo and had the pleasure of meeting this dog on a couple of occasions to me he represented evrything in a GSD that should be :-)

Funnily enough I went into Golden Retrievers which have to the most level of toplines :-D but this brred is very close to my heart and I simply adore :-)

Briony :-)

sometimes,in any breed, a dog or bitch,just shines out to you dosent it?
i was like that when i saw flynns mum work (obedience) she still enthralls me.-(he takes after his dad though!!lol!but thats ok cos hes lovely too!!!) & i knew i had to have to pup from her...& i did!

What is ISDS ?

international sheepdog society. they have there own register that predates the KC one for BCs

:) thank you, I was wondering if it was a breed and just couldnt work it out :rolleyes:

Two years ago at Crufts a "International"type bitch won the CC & BOB & she looked good in the group(she has been placed in the group at previous show), last year an"English"type won & basically has handled appallingly by her owner/handler she was strung up & would not stand properly for the judge & her indivudual assessment of movement was a farce she fought being strung up all the time

They have CC#s as a breed not type. & apart from Crufts you usually will not find the two types at the same show.

The"English"type are handled usually by owners but there are some pro handlers & the dogs are not gaited anywhere near as much as the "International"type, they do the usual up & down & a curcuit they they are moved a few times around the ring as a class. they are also usually shown on very fine chokers up under their ears & stacked in stance the head being held firmly & often the fingers are up behind the dogs ears,The dogs are uaually gaited alongside the handler. The critiques are written after the dogs are placed so only the first three get a critique. Usually only the bite is looked at

The"Iinternational"type are shown as the breed is shown in germany on a deadlink long link choker or a leather & chain gaiting collar, they are shown stacked on the whole(but mine never were)but some are allowed to walk into a natural stance, a written critique is made on all dogs & the dogs are closely examined for number of teeth & correctness of bite. They are also examined individually in movement the same as the "English"type, however & it is a big however when they are judged as a class at the extended gait & trot they might be moved for 10-30 minutes & the dogs are moved up & down as their fitness & correctness of gait are revealed They are also moved at fast & slow pace & at the walk, this tests the fitness & correctness of movement & the dogs are gaited at the end of the lead in front of the handlers(who are usually pros)

Permission has been given for a"Seiger"style show to be held in the UK by the KC. The German Seiger show is judged not just on the days performance but also on the effect on the breed the dogs will have their pedigree is taken into account & the dogs are mesured & temperament tested & of cousre at the sieger they have to do the test of courage(incorrectly called the bite)Dogs that fai the TOC &/or are found to be too big or too small are excused. The dogs are graded the top 10 adults in dogs & bitches are classed VA then V(excellent) the SG(very good), G(Good) & the top ten dogs are viewed as the best in the country. They are also gaited on & off lead & there are rarely if ever is there any disagreements between the dogs. There is double handling mainly to keep the dogs interest during the gaiting I doubt that the dogs actually hear the owners voice during the gaiting !

I personally do not like double handling(gives me a headache)& it is also against FCI & SV rules, but at the seiger it certainly does add to the atmosphere

As well as the breed shows in Germany there are breed surveys  or Korung & the dogs are measured & a working exercises including a test of courage called out-a failure means the dog cannot have it's offspring registered with the SV  I could go n & on

Bitches taken to Germany to be bred to German dogs will soon have to have the BH(like a glorified Gold Good Citizen test)qualification !in my eyes all show dogs & bitches should have this

thank you!!!!
its becoming abit clearer!!!
one last question,at crufts then are both the types shown in a more "english" style?

surely judges must prefer one type to the other so if say it was an English type judge, then it is no point entering if you have the German type ?

Judges are of course 'chosen' as with any breed.If you own a germanic type theres not a lot of point showing under an 'english' judge and vice versa ...BUT that is the same in all breeds surely. I know there are judges within my breed who will not like my 'type' of elkhound.I know there are 2 types of stafford and also in some breeds judges have a preference for colour(rightly or wrongly) .With Champ shows being SO expensive most people most people 'chose' who they show under...after all theres no point in throwing away your money.
Archer

in gsds then are the judges equally appointed from each side? so if youget a german one one year,you get a more english type the next?

do the german type more popular (numbers wise)? as most of the ones i see here tend to be that type

I know in my own breed certain judges go for certain "types" but the types arent as clear cut as they seem to be in GSD's.  Thats why I was thinking it wouldnt be fair at crufts to have a judge for just one type.  Maybe the "types" should be split ;)

Whoah the GSD is a "breed" not a "type"  ;)  Every breed has judges who have preferences towards certain specific attributes or a real problem overlooking a specific fault for example (like tail carriage or eye colour or membrane pigment)  and of course we have a few that are "face" only   :D  That the GSD fraternity have taken physical points to make extreme differences between "types" simply means that they should be looking at ways to reach a middle ground - ie. following the Standard :)

Regards, Teri

In the UK, it would not be possible at a General All Breeds (or Group for that matter) Champ Shows to gait each class in a breed for the times quoted by Moonmaiden although I know that often specific Breed Club shows such as GSD and Rottweiller particularly when overseas judges are appointed this does happen.  Equally in the UK (apart from the KC's recent decision about the GSD event) it is a KC rule that dogs are not "graded" ie. Ex, VG, G, Promising etc.  Again at some breed club shows (including our own BSD club shows) this happens and critiques are given for every dog in every class - at general & group champ events there would not be time to do this.

Re being shown more "English" style, it therefore depends what you mean.  At Crufts the KC rules and regs are generally more tightly followed so most breeds are shown on a par - not so much an English style as KC directive and constraints of making the Group ring  etc. however the GSD will be physically handled by handler and judge and gaited in accordance with the preferences of it's "type"

Teri :) 

thanks!!!!

does anyone see the gsds splitting,as BSDs,dacshies & akitas(now i believe)have done?

Hi Michelled,

The BSD was not so much *split* as reinstated.  The KC made an #### of our breed for a number of years by lumping all four varieties together (which had previously always been separate).  They eventually saw the folly of their ways after about 5 years and bowed to the demand of breeders both in the UK and world wide and returned separate status.

Dachs have both size and coat type differences so not the same situation as the GSD (because they are written into separate breed Standards)

The Akita has been split very definitely on the diversity of type - the most commonly seen Japanese Akita as we had come to know if so well was regarded as being too large and there were issues re acceptable colour and markings too.  The Akita Inu - as seen in the country of origin - is a slighter dog.  They were messing about with names like Great Japanese Dog and such like but personally I can't remember if it's been sorted out.

It would be very sad if there was ever an approved split in the GSD as it, like the Akita, would become two entirely separate breeds :(

Teri 

thanks for putting me right about the BSDs :)

i dont think they should be spilt,but i was SO STUNNED by the differance at the show i went to,cant help but wonder if it may come to that in the end,especially if the differances keep increasing.

Wrong Teri If a judge who prefers the "International" as opposed to "English"type then the dogs are gaited a lot For example at Briningaham Natioanl a couple of years back the GSD dog judge put up a "International"type dog who got BOB after the group judge was called in (the bitch jusdge was"English"type & then when straight into the group & was 3rd & made up to boot, same at Border Union & a few others as well.

The entries are not so big at All Breed shows due to the ring size allocated & complaints re double handling, some of which is uncalled for. I will give you an example I was at Leeds Ch Sh on working day without a GSD as the judge was not likely to place or even like my dog so I went with a friend & her Newfies & she entered one for me to handle. After winning the PG class I was walking back to the benches past the GSD ring when I was grabbed by a field officer & shouted at to stop double handling my bitsh in the GSD ring, I had never owned a show bitch other than one that was only show at breed shows, I asked him which bitch I was"calling" & was told the bitch leading the class ! I made the FO find the bitches details in the catalogue & she was being handled by her owner ! The FO told me he had watched me all morning with the bitch in question ! Thats odd I told him this is my dog(small lie)& I don't even live in the  same country as the owner of the bitch ! He continued to rant on about B GSD owners ! & made me prove my identty(Luckily I had my warrant card on me)At this point he went silent & muttered what I presume was an apology & slithered away. I went straight to the sec & complained about the FO & lodged a complaint in the incident book & I also went to the KC stand & wrote out a written complaint. It turned out the FO had seen me handling my dog at a show where there was Double Handling(not of my dog)& the FO was not there officially so he couldn't do anything ! I got an abject written apology from the KC & the FO but he remained a FO. Then I was judging at another & the Show Manager came & stopped my class as there had been a report of DH There was no DH(I stop judging if it occurs)what it was an owner/handler was talking to her own dog as they ran round hardly DH

Cavaliers have the biggest entries yet we are frequently finished by 2 & the GSD entry is never as high as the Cavs & cannot be assessed correctly .on a couple of ciruits & no individual notes to refer to. BTW I make individual notes on ALL dogs I judge no matter what the breed

Last year at Crufts the dogs were judged correctly This year it was up & down & once round then the class round twice & the winners pulled out all over & done with by a bout 2 o'clock !

Hi Moonmaiden,

I think "wrong" is a bit OTT - yes, I agree judges with a preference for International GSDs put much more prominance on movement but they DON'T gait classes for 10 minutes + at GC and G shows.  And yes they also give extra time to individual movement but again not to the extremes that you mentioned with the possible exception of Breed shows where obviously the Committee can plan the show from start to finish themselves.

I know what you mean about the DH - BSDs have had the misfortune to be along side the GSD ring on many occasions and sometimes it is unbearable, particularly for anyone in the vicinity with a sound sensitive breed such as my own.  On the other hand, I have no problem with outside attraction to get the best from an exhibit provided it does not interfere with anyone else ;)  But I know some FO and Committee also pre-judge what may happen in the GSD rings and penalise their exhibitors unfairly too so I can sympathise.

W&PBAS has it about right - they put the GSDs in a different building and let them get on with it (great, because Belgians used to have to share it with them and it was a nightmare)  :D

Regards, Teri

Oh well I presume you are right just that when I watched some classes at Gen CH shows this year they did gait the dogs for prolonged periods & the jusdge at last years Crufts certainly did as I was holding the handler/breeder of the BOB other dog ! & he was certainly gaiting for more than the usual twice round the ring that they had this year This years GSD judging was all over & done with by lunchtine whereas last year the bitch only just made the group. Funny I also saw the dogs do the individuals & have the written critique done at all the Gen Ch Sh I attended too. The extended gaiting is NOT done in puppy classes of course

Very odd judging at this years crufts as the BOB was very English, but at least one of the dog classes was won by an "International"type.

They will never be two breeds as it would lose the KC money !

Did you know the KC originally did not allow Schutzhund qualifications to be added to dogs names even if they had gained the Quals abroad. This has now changed & dogs & handlers & owners cannot be banned for taking part in other KC show & from having the progeny registered as was originally threatened. With the KC allowing a Sieger style event to be staged ! Verbal critiques I think will be allowed over here as it is education to see why a dog is placed where it is. The KC has also in with the decision to had all bitches taken to Germany(or to an SV reg dog overseas)to have the BH qulification gefore they can be mated. My german friend was over here & did some BH tests the other weekend, she is of course an SV working judge

I can see the International type breeders eventually forming their own version of the SV & not bothering with the KC, the SV rules for breeding stock are very very strict & they now require ALL dogs to be DNA profiled after the "Griffths/Martin Fiasco !

I will stress yet again that ALL GSDs must be bred for character & health then breed standard, in the words of Alfred Hahn-there is no such thing as a too friendly GSD & this should be above everything else, then the health & construction, although all four are very very important as if one is missing the dog is not the complete GSD"

This is a very interesting thread, I think that discussions on GSD type always provoke alot of interesting thoughts!!
The GSD was bred as a working dog, but it is also a beautiful noble creature. I breed GSD's, I show them at top level, having 1 champion, 1 with 1 CC and 1 with a reserve CC. They are 100% German bloodlines but they all work as well. Currently have 4 GSD's with schuzhund titles, 1 with BH about to do schh1, 1 just commenced schh training and a young puppy that I am bringing along, her tracking is excellent for her age, her obedience good and we are starting the protection phase. I have sown 1 of our GSD's at the German Sieger show gaining a place in the top group, I worked her myself in the schutzdienst test. I think what I am trying to say is that the show GSD can be just as versatile as the working GSD if you have the time and the inclination to work them. It is easy to run around in circles with them, but they get pretty bored with that, mine all love to work, I am proud of their achievements both in the showring and on the working field.

Hi Natsmom,

And quite right too, you should be VERY proud  :)

Regards, Teri

Well said Natsmom !

thankfully, well bred GSD's should look like the breed they are supposed to be AND be capable of working - in my own breed it is very common for pups from the same litter to be shown and worked - the ideal combination of beauty and brains :D

Hi,

GSD'S are not my breed but I have a question to ask and i'm aware it may be delicate area ;-) I don't want to cause arguments from either side just some opinions :-)

In my breed Goldens ,the constcution is set by our breed standard and basic Golden dog is the same in all over constuction (or we strive for it) but we have aceptable head types and acceptable colour range within the breed.
In GSD'S of which i've seen some nice English types but personally prefer the German type if I was ever to get one or show one.How can you have a GSD one with a sloping topline and one that is perfectly straight? or does your breed standard except either?
I've not read all the posts ;-) i'm just interested :-)

Briony :-)

The standard states....
<<<<Withers long, of good height and well defined, joining back in a smooth line without disrupting flowing topline, slightly sloping from front to back. Weak, soft and roach backs undesirable and should be rejected. Loin broad, strong, well muscled. Croup long, gently curving downwards to tail without disrupting flowing topline. Short, steep or flat croups undesirable.
I suppose as with all breeds its down to interpretation.>>>>

The other thing that might be of interest to some is
<<<<Outer coat consisting of straight, hard, close-lying hair as dense as possible; thick undercoat. Hair on head, ears, front of legs, paws and toes short; on back, longer and thicker; in some males forming slight ruff. Hair longer on back of legs as far down as pasterns and stifles and forming fairly thick trousers on hindquarters. No hard and fast rule for length of hair; mole-type coats undesirable>>>>
so no coat length is 'disqualified' ...the disqualifying factor is the lack of undercoat....hence being penalised for lack of function not looks.

Archer

Hi,

Thanks Archer i'm a little wiser now :-)

Now could you correct me on this then because I could be way off the mark here ;-)

I thought the best acceptable coat for a GSD was called a "full coat" neither long or short with a dense undercoat ??

Briony :-)

Sorry to make myself little clearer full coat not long or short but between the to was best with the cotrrect undercoat :-)

Briony ;-)