all the GSD shows around my area,(often there is GSD breed & any vaaiety open obedience)seem to just have the german type ,but this weekend went to newark where they had the English type! WHAT a differance! i was gob smacked in the total differance in type & also in handling.

who has GSDs on here,what type do you have & why???

Was it the UK club ? They do tend to have the extremely English type very long backed & short over angulated back legs & handed with the thin cheesewire chokers up under their ears & always shown stacked.

I personally prefer the German Working lines I was at South Valley Schutzhund tests a week or so ago & the dogs were mainly greys(Sables in the UK)very strong heads & bodies & of course worked totally off lead except in the tracking. Temperaments without exception were superb. The was a handler who also had a gorgeous Akita(Japanese type)who is just starting working who also had a awesome temperament & gave me a super display of working on & off lead with distractions, she mixed with the GSDs & BSDs(Mals)

It was so nice to be with such sociable dogs(& handlers)

Both my GSDs are either privatly rehomed or rescue's. Both, I would say, are the German GSD, although they don't have the sloping topline of one.

As much as I love all  GSDs, my preference is the English. I like the heavier built GSD and straight topline

I would say looking at mine, she is the german type. I got her from rescue so don't know anything about her background, But she is very small and slightly built with a noticeable german slope, one thing that amuses me looking at her is her enourmous paws, they look totally out of proportion with the rest of her........bless :)

My old boy that I used to have was definitely the British type, very straight, solid and powerful. He never would have been a show dog as he was too tall and weighed a lot because of his build, (not fat).

I don't really have a preference, they are all lovely and as long as they are bred for health and agility in life, thats all that matters to me ;)

Spot on Hairypooch

Thats why I like the working lines of the german dogs-very strict breeding rules include DNA profiling & tattooing. Temperament & health go hand in hand with these dogs. Many people think that because they are trained for manwork they are aggressive when in fact just the opposite is the truth.

I don't like the show bred GSD as they breed just for the looks(& some do the X rays & blood tests fo Haemophillia-the International type breeders all do, but a lot of the UK & pet breeders don't there's even a kennels that boasts they don't need to hip score because their dogs don't have HD & never have )

The same reason I would never own a KC only registered BC, I prefer my dogs to be bred to do the job they were developed for. Even my Cavaliers can hunt even if it is only the odd mouse !

You will find lots of the "English"type breeders prefer tp call their dogs Alsatians(sic)

I have the english type, quite straight backed, but an absolutely beautiful shape and stance. I was quite put off by the german shape when it seemed that some breeding produced some roach-backed dogs, I've seen a few that sadly looked like hyenas, and positively deformed.

Mine is also a longcoat, which is considered a fault in the breed, but she is absolutely beautiful and has a fabulous temperment.
Kat

I have a long coat german type Kat. Thankfully, he's not as roached backed as some of the one's I've seen :( I'd love to see the day when all GSDs, English and German lines, are straight backed.

As opposed to the UK dippy backed "straight"backed dogs ?

Someone quoted the best topline they had ever seen as being on Fenton of Kentwood the 1st of 3 "Alsatians"to go BIS at Crufts however Fenton had a marked long back with a very noticable dip behind the withers. This was caused by him being long coupled & short ribbed resulting in  him having nothing to support the middle section of his back. This is typical of many"Alsatian"types being shown today

All I want to see is ALL GSDs be bred for temperament & health & all being trained to BH standard & screened for HD etc before being bred from Something that will never come as "conformation"(breed only in the UK)exhibitors don't want to be bothered with working ability as long as they are pretty & obedience/WT people never read the breed standard

All I want to see is ALL GSDs be bred for temperament and health

I couldn't agree with you more Moonmaiden :)

Hmmm - should'nt the breed be as close as possible to the original blueprint from the country of origin ?  Should we be changing the breed so as to make an English version of the GSD ? I have seen many ( usually long haired) GSD's which look almost like a different breed entirely- they are even advertised as having 'massive bone'.

In my own breed (BSD) 20 years ago we certainly had a type that looked completely different to the ones that were being bred in Belgium or France - most of our stock then came from America and was very heavy with lots of bone huge coats and lots of flashy movement. Now this type is hardly ever seen and BSD's from this country are now winning at top level in their country of origin. We took a long look at the direction we were headed in and now produce the correct type of elegant, refined dog instead of assuming that the heavier type was correct. Interestingly those outside the breed and many all rounder judges did prefer the breed as it was - due I think to it's abundant coat and reachy driving movement ( quite wrong for our breed :))

It's an interesting point about the dogs resembling the blueprint of their country of origin, because when I look at GSD websites (to take the breed as the example used here) the modern German ones are very different in appearance to their stock from 50 years ago, which, to the untrained eye (not wishing to get anyone's back up!) more resembles the modern 'English' type.

You are so wrong JG the dogs from the early SV stud book no way resemble the UK "Alsatians"They did not have the massively deep chests & over angulated rear angualtion & they did not have to hauled around on cheesewire chokers having their heads held at an unatural position

Neither do the modern GSD resemble them, however the breed standerd would not portray the dogs from the time of Horand.

"Slightly long in comparison to height; of powerful, well muscled build with weather-resistant coat. Relation between height, length, position and structure of fore and hindquarters (angulation) producing far-reaching, enduring gait. Clear definition of masculinity and femininity essential, and working ability never sacrificed for mere beauty."

The UK"Alsatian"type falls at the first hurdle as most of them are NOT slightly longer in comparison to height most are in the ratio of(height to length)7:10

They also fall on the Body description
"Length measured from point of breast bone to rear edge of pelvis, exceeding height at withers. Correct ratio 10 to 9 or 8 and a half. Undersized dogs, stunted growth, high-legged dogs, those too heavy or too light in build, over-loaded fronts, too short overall appearance, any feature detracting from reach or endurance of gait, undesirable. Chest deep (45-48 per cent) of height at shoulder, not too broad, brisket long, well developed. Ribs well formed and long; neither barrel-shaped nor too flat; allowing free movement of elbows when gaiting. Relatively short loin. Belly firm, only slightly drawn up. Back between withers and croup, straight, strongly developed, not too long. Overall length achieved by correct angle of well laid shoulders, correct length of croup and hindquarters. Withers long, of good height and well defined, joining back in a smooth line without disrupting flowing topline, slightly sloping from front to back. Weak, soft and roach backs undesirable and should be rejected. Loin broad, strong, well muscled. Croup long, gently curving downwards to tail without disrupting flowing topline. Short, steep or flat croups undesirable"

Please not the description of the topline It does NOT state level or straight The back is described as straight but NOT level

I could go on & on but won't

Trouble is when people who like the 1950's "Alsatians"read the breed standard they do not read it in depth they quote back straight & take that to mean the topline which it doesn't, the topline should gently slope so a dog with a Labrador type topline is NOT correct, a dog with a short croup like a Labrador is NOT correct

I would suggest all the Alsatian lovers out there actually read ALL of the breed standard & apply it to a picture of the dogs they love so much, starting with measuring height to length and then depth of chest to height & then the straight back & gently sloping topline It will open your eyes(the current GSD breed standard is on the KC site)

After applying the physical side of the standard then the character & temperament should be applied & sorry the UK"Alsatians"of the 50's did not on the whole have good temperaments & the KC added(at the request of the "top"breeders of the time)add the noted suspicion of strangers(dropped in the 70's)to cover up the awful temperaments of the top winning "Alsatians"Nowhere else in the world was this wording included in the breed standard allowing some of the worst temperamented "Alsatians"to win top honours, when the correct standard was adopted the UK "Alsatian"fans continued to breed from their now incorrectly temperamented dogs splitting the breed even further

Just as an aside one "Alsatian"BOB at Crufts not only"had"the ring steward in the breed ring but also did the same in the group(not shown on TV of course so missed by the GP(bad press !)& topped it off by lunging at the group judge before being gone over(again not on TV)& after(agian not on TV) & the latest"Alsatian"BOB at Crufts moved appallingly & this was on TV, the dog ducked back on the approach of the Group judge & was handled like a bag of spuds by it's owner !

So before slagging off the"International"type Read & study the breed standard that is current today then read & study it applied to a dog, it takes years of study & exams to become a judge of GSDs under SV rules & acting as student judge to an experienced qualified judge, attending a few seminars & judging a set number of dogs at open show level is no way the same

Last time I judged BC's I was slagged off for putting up a white faced prick eared dog(markings allowed in the breed standard), the"judges"outside the ring failed to notice his totally correct movement & type seeing only his head markings. They also complained that I moved the dogs too much("Anyone would thing they were working dogs"was one comment-doh I thought they were supposed to be able to work sheep obviously I was mistaken)& didn't write any notes in the line up(took a written critique when doing the individuals so had note on ALL the dogs not just the winners)

I did say "to the untrained eye" Moonmaiden! ;) I found this site very interesting. :)

Interesting in deed JG Thanks.:) Gillian

Sorry I don't need to look at sites to be able to understand my breeds standard Thanx for looking it up tho'

I thought it interesting the way it pointed out that the alsatians's short legs and long body is as wrong as the roach backline of the German show dog.
:)

My GSD bitch is 2 years 6 months old, she is long coated, has a long straight back and an absolutely wonderful temperament. I think temperament counts above anything else, whats the point of having a "perfect" looking dog with a nasty temperament? My girlie is perfect in my eyes, she is a Foxfold, I think it was Michelled who said she knew the breed.  She is very keen to work and loves to please. I hate people calling her an "Alsation", I usually say no, she's a German Shepherd, mind you some have also asked me what's she crossed with, because of her long coat.
I also had 3 Cavaliers who were great little hunters, would spend all day in the woods, they even walked up different paths of Snowdon a few times (not to the top, I'm not that energetic). One was particularly keen on catching mice. 

Yes but mongrels can have lovely temperaments too.  I am sure your bitch is delightful, but a breed standard sets the perameters within which breeders should work to produce typical specimins, and of course this certainly should include typical temperament and good health.

If I were looking for a GSD then I would be using the breed standard as my picture of what I was looking for, and would justifiably be disappointed to find my lovley pup barely resembled it's breed.  Lo9ngcoats, whites and any other non standard are just that untypical of the breed concerned.

Sorry but I am not into breed standards or prancing around a show ring with my dog, I chose my dog
because of her looks and perfect temperament, there are some of us who love their dogs whether they have imperfections or not. Don't know what you mean by "but mongrels can have lovely temperaments too" are you suggesting that mine is a mongrel?

No I am saying that most people choose a breed because it is that breed, rather than just any dog.  We choose a pedigree dog because we know within the parameters of the standard what size, coazt, colour and even temperament we are likely to get.  In some breeds like my own, other than to a breed aficianado I would say all pups bred by breed enthusiasts are typical of the breed and fit the standard in it's main requirements of xize limits, tail and ear carriage, coat type and colour.

Some very popular breeds, many of which are bred purely for the demand have a huge divergence from breed type.  You get WHWT that bear only resemblance to their breed in having a white coat.  Cavalier King Charles that are the size of Welsh Springers, and bear little resemblance to either breed except for colour.

I have met a poor lady struggling wityh a dog she bought as a Yorkshire Terrier.  It was the size of a Cocker Spaniel, and was not the small toy breed she could have better coped with.  It also had drop ears a long body and strange head (it's breeder also had Llhassa Apso's) anbd it's top coat was Gold!

All these dogs are deserving of love, but they are not typical bred specimins, which surely is the whole point.  Taken a stp further (and it has been) you will get Black and white GSDs with Classic collie markings, dogs from medium size to giant, all pretending to be one breed.

Brainless, you say about this lady with the oversized Yorkshire Terrier, had she not done any homework on the Breeder i.e. seen both Sire & Dam, visited to see previous litters, before choosing to buy one herself. If I were buying a puppy, I would certainly look around first and take my time.  There is a breeder who advertises regularly in the evening paper, she breeds a least 4 different breeds and at the end of the advert states "can deliver", I'd stay well clear. One of my neighbours bought a Cocker Spaniel from a breeder in Wales,they exchanged dog and money on a car park half way because it was such a long journey,(and he's a policeman). The dog looks nothing like a CS, it's got very long legs and a long pointed nose, probably come from a puppy farm, don't know why they chose to buy this way, as there are very good breeders of CS locally. Perhaps it was the price, I don't know. My friend's friend bought a GSD puppy from a Show Breeder, the dog has all the perfect points to "The Breed Standard", but sadly lacks a good temperament. I visited these kennels myself when looking for a pup, and I thought the dogs looked very unhappy, and never came and greeted us, whereas they were just the opposite from where I did buy my pup from. Hence the reason I bought her even though she is not to The Breed Standard (long coat).

You can get both types with good temperaments & from health checked parents & that is what is important or at least should be to the Gen Public pet owners

When it comes to the show ring I could never put up a dog with a bad temperament no matter how lovely it looked. My current GSD is from the "International"type lines, her father won 2 CC's but  is a rescue & would never win any prizes at shows(has never been shown)unless it was for the best temperament with people & little dogs-she had a bad start & we believe she was hurt by a bigger dog as she hates big dogs, although if she meets a puppy when small & sees it grow up there is no problem & with puppies of any breed & little dogs she goes gooey & soppy & is very maternal, she would have made an excellent mother but we had her spayed & never had any intention of breeding from her. She is never in a position to that would cause problems with big dogs before I am told to keep her muzzled whilst out. At the vet's last week I had an awful job getting her out of the door as someone had brought in a puppy in a pet carrier & she was laid down saying hello & being silly & refused to get up, I had to haul her out the collar had the reception staff in stitches as she is a very big girl ! & I'm 5'2"

If only all dogs were bred for temperament & type & health then we would all be happy

the foxfold dogs are lovely.  are all very similar,so sashakameo would have known what she was getting!!!!!if i was ever going to get a shepherd (for obedience) this is what id get!

Thanks for that Michelled, you will have probably seen Sasha's brother Buddy, in obedience, with Judy and her 2 Coltrieve dogs. Tony Fox also does tracking with his dogs. It just appears so sad to me that whenever a subject arises about a German Shepherd, it always turns into a heated argument, usually by the people who do not own them.
Best Wishes Sue & Sasha

Ok all you GSD experts which type is this dog ? You might want to have a guess at his breeding too

Never claimed to be an expert, but he's a nice looking dog.
:)

Herin lies the rub.  Your average pet owner may only have a dog every 15 years, so maybe only teo or three through their adult dog woning life, and many just assume that they are getting what was advertised, and assume a pedigree is the same as registration.

This lady said that after going all that way, and the dogs were well looked after clean etc, she didn't supsect that her pup was anything but what he was purported to be, and after she realised it was too late, and she is attached to him, even though he is not really suitable to her frailty.  She struggles along walking him religiously though.

Oh just to add you say you chose your dog on 'looks', now assuming you got her as a pup what looks did you choose her for, as with an 8 wekk old puppy that would be very hard to predict.  You expected her to look like a GSD.  Now I am sure you would still have loved her if her coat had gone curly and she grew a beard and eyebrows like a Briard, and had floppy ears, but you certainly would be a bit miffed she didn't look like what you expected.

Yes Brainless I can see what you are getting at, having had the breed myself I know that some CKC Spaniels look nothing like they are supposed to. Obviously when my dog (GSD) was a puppy, I went on looks from sire and dam and other dogs related to her, and temperament from recommendation by previous owners/friends. My one friend knew the breeder and dogs very well. Sasha is mostly black with tan legs and her markings haven't altered all that much from a puppy, but my neighbour bought a puppy (not same breeder) who was all black and grew up into a gold dog. But I knew that Sasha would be long coated, and I was very happy about it as I prefer the looks of a long coated Shepherd. If I had wanted the Breed Standard, then I would have gone to a different breeder but to me she IS a German Shepherd. She has all the right proportions, height etc. it's just her coat that is long, which I prefer, lookwise. She is a very fit dog and her mind is active all the time, apart from when she lies on her back to have her tummy tickled. I know there has been this discussion before about GSD and the Breed Standard and photographs of them years ago being very lean. But alot of dogs were leaner years ago to what they are now. Years ago they were probably worked all day, and people hadn't the food or money to feed them as well as they are fed today. Does it not apply to us humans too, a man had to labour for long hours years ago, now there's machinery to do the work for him, and there are many obese people about. I know what you mean, but in my eyes my dog is perfection and that's all that matters.

If we were to take the GSD back to the deutche von Shaffeurhund (sp???) then we would probably end up with a completely different dog than the one we have today :(

So would many breeds if compared to dogs bred years ago except of course ISDS BC's(as an example) that have physically changed little from Old Hemp & Maid days The Conformation breeders have changed the breed in less than 20 years to look totally different from the dogs bred to work, However GSDs have never worked sheep in the uk as they do in Germany & even in Germany it is in much reduced numbers as BCs have taken their place as well as a change in farming practices but there are still HGH breeders out their whose dogs work sheep AND conform to the SV current breed standard, proving that can & do work sheep in the traditional way

I prefer Germanic GSD's however there are bad ones out there of either type.This seems to be the only breed(that I can think of) that so widely breeds for non standard types...not only colour and coat types but also size.I have seen so many studs advertised as 'over 30 inches tall'' etc.
Why do people want to make the breed into something its not! If its the odd long coat that is thrown from a litter then so be it but to deliberately breed for something which is a major fault is to my mind wrong.
How much of an uproar would there be if people decided they wanted a white leonberger or a long coated boxer!
Archer

Archer I so agree with you - there seems to be a kind of inverted snobbery in that those who have GSD which do not conform to the breed standard seem convinced that theirs somehow make up for this by having 'better temperaments' or being 'sounder'. This of course is simply not true and all that happens is that a new 'variety' of GSD is created , one moreover that bears only a passing resemblance to the breed as it is in Germany and elsewhere on the continent.

These 'non - standard GSD's are very often advertised as being 'massive', having 'huge bone' and standing up to 30inches at the shoulder - ( I believe 25 inches is the maximum) This is happening to the Malinois in my breed - they have been crossed with Great Danes to produce a more intimidating dog for man work - and it makes me just despair - it you cannot breed according to the breed standard then DONT BREED !

I adore the GSD breed and like you despair of people who in ther ultimate knowledge think they can improve the breed by totally ignoring the breed standard and breeding for whatever traits take their fancy.As far as I'm concerned if you don't like a breed for what it is then leave it alone and find one that you do! I sure as hell wouldn't condone someone breeding a short coated Elkhound because someone thought it looked better!!
Sorry...rant over!
Archer

its not just for lookks though,whats wrong with breeding for temperment & working ability?
in obedience,there are "obedience lines" gsds,because people want the drive & the attitude. & these are really popular,much more so than the show lines (on either side). im not sure about working trials,what lines are popular there?what about in agility?

what lines do the police use for there work?

A lot use gifted dogs for work & do not breed, but some use their own breeding & from the BRS the met have used german imports

thanks.
its all very interesting!!!!!

i find how all breeds develop interesting, & we could be having this discussion about many breeds.
btween working & show lines gundogs  for instance, & even using imports from different countries were their standard differs slightly to ours

The size and shape of working labs etc can all be fitted into the standard...its just a case of interpretation.However when the GSD standard states that long coats and whites are major faults how do they fit into the standard?
I would also like to add that most whites and long coats as well as the really big GSD are NOT bred for work...they are bred to fill a demand for this type of dog
Archer

The GSD is a versatile dog....why do you think the 'standard' GSD is less capable than a long coated or an oversized one?A good breeder will breed for looks AND working ability...in fact in Germany a dog cannot be shown until it has proved its working ability.
If people are breeding for working ability and temperament then why ignore the standard or are you saying that all 'show' bred dogs are bad tempered and incapable of work...if so I think you need to research the breed a lot more
Archer

are you talking to me????
i dont think that,i have "observed" in MY sport,that gsd competitors usually opt for an obedience bred one!!!!! im guessing they do that because they like the way they work,in the saME way when im looking for a collie for obedience i will look for lines i like for attitude,-NOT because they fit the breed standard.

The show type GSD is just as capable of doing any kind of work that an obedience bred one is.But we are getting away from what I was talking about to trevor...its not about purpose its about people deliberately breeding non standard dogs to fill a demand
Archer

are you a expert in obedience bred GSDs then? sorry didnt realise,cos the elkhounds live seen at obedience shows werent owned by you!

No need to be bitchy is there....if thats the level of your conversation when someone doesn't agree with you we'll leave it there shall we!
Archer
PS I have on need or intention of using my elks for obedience....they are show dogs and hence conform to their breed standard!

oh whatever!

im going home now anyway

Tony Fox(Foxfold) has stated he likes the drive etc of offspring of Ch Rosehurst Chris-a dog with a good temp & character hip scored etc, however he did tend to hinge his back at the end of his ribcage at some speeds of gait &who was shown to be  a carrier of the blue dilute colour when line bred to, he was a dog I liked in free stance but whose toplinee in movement I just couldn't live with

Hi Michelled,

I don't think it does any breed good as a whole to diversify into a show v. working type - when this has happened in the past, somewhere along the line (excuse the pun ;)) particular attributes of the breed have been lost.  The Standards were provided by the custodians of the breeds and unless we try and emulate what is written (albeit by personal interpretation) we do no favours to the breeds we profess to love.

Part of each breed's standard covers physical and temperament descriptions (and where appropriate working ability/characteristics) so good breeders try and follow all parts, not sacrifice one for the other.

Regards, Teri :)

Put much more elloqueltly than I when I try to say it!
Archer

Sashakameo
The leanness you refer to is not down the food...its down to genetics,People have bred for a heavier dog which is totally incorrect.
Archer

Interesting thread. This always seems to spark off a lot of bad feeling. I'm interested as to why Moonmaiden insists on calling English type GSD's Alsatians. It seems to be meant in a derogatory way, unnecessary I think. Also Archer, I can see an immediate flaw in your argument about changing a breed. It's all man has ever done to create these breeds in the first place. My god, just look at the bulldog today. Many breeds such as the bulldog, pugs and pekes when they do conform to the standard that we set can't breathe and can't exercise without having a heart attack or passing out because we have introduced deformity. Shar Pei's suffer from so many syndromes you often can't insure them!
I am offended by the statement about 'reverse snobbery' of long haired shepherd owners, of which I am one and very happy about. There is no reverse snobbery, merely defence from the real 'snobs' about the breed who instantly go on the attack - witness your own and Moonmaidens remarks particularly. I have never seen an aggressive post to those who have standard coated dogs from non-standard owners.

Would you cull Blue's as well? As many people have said, breeding for health and temperament is obviously most important and there are plenty of long coated breeders doing exactly that. What's wrong with having a preference for long coated dogs if you don't intend to show them or work them? Why not welcome them into the breed and change the breed standard to include them? Oh I bet that would ruffle a few dusty old petticoats at the Kennel Club, and wouldn't it be an eye opener if some of them were actually as good or better than the standards? (well we can all dream).

>Why not welcome them into the breed and change the breed standard to include them?

Dogs should be bred to fit the standard laid down by the breed's originators, not the standard changed to fit the dogs. That applies to all breeds, not just GSDs.
:)