We went to visit OH's relatives on Sunday and met their jack russell puppy who I think they said was either 21 weeks or 26 weeks (definately around that age anyway).  Every time they went to pick him up, they would do so by scruffing him.  OH told his brother off about doing this and I didn't like it either.  On the KC website it says that JRT's (well PRT's in that case!) should have loose skin, but does that mean its still alright to be scruffing him at that age?  At what age should scruffing stop? 

It should never start.

My thought exactly

My ex-trainer bred a litter of BSD, I went to see them when they were three days old. Everyone else was picking them up by their scruffs to lift them out of the pen. I went to pick one up, got hold of it's scrff, and couldn't physically lift my hand!!! I ended up picking him up normally, which got a few good laughs from the others, but I didn't care. I suppose it depends on what you are used to, but I couldn't do it then, and I couldn't do it now. I'm not saying it would have hurt the pups, but it might have, and that was enough of a reason for me not to try it. :-)

Relieved to see you described this person as an "ex-trainer" ClaireH ;)  What kind of mind set do they have about dogs in general if they'd scruff a newborn never mind an older pup?????

Goes back to similarly archaic views such as lifting rabbits by their ears - pity some people never learn that animal management has moved on :(

Teri 

Bitches scruff their pups because they don't have hands to lift them! At 6 months old even a JRT is far too heavy to picked up that way....a dog should be lifted securely while supporting its weight not suspended from some skin behind its neck
Archer

Thank you everyone.  I wanted to give them a lecture about it, but thought it best to check my facts first.  Also they decided they wanted a second one and as OH has a friend who has just had a litter of JRT's he gave him a ring and by the same evening they had reserved one for January.  (I had already mentioned earlier that day during an unrelated discussion how you shouldn't have two puppies at the same time unless you know what you are doing - and its clear from the scruffing that they don't, so they aren't going to change their minds, but I will make sure the breeder of the litter knows how they handle their dog - relative or not!)

Just to clarify, I have never scruffed a dog and wouldn't be able to - it makes me wince even when I see bitches do it!

I know bitches do it when lifting their pups because they don't have hands, but we do! And bitches know what they are doing and I don't. :p

Yes, this woman has become my ex-trainer - you wouldn't believe the crap she came out with! Unfortunately, I was young and inexperienced when I first met her, and had not long had my first dog, so I went along with what she said. She fills everyones head with rubbish, and if you dare to disagree with her, you are put in the 'Billy-no-mates' camp. Any new people were told not to speak to me and so on, she told me horror stories about my dogs to try to frighten me, like my pup had one front leg shorter than the other, and he was so skinny his body would not be able to support him much longer and his health would suffer. When I told her I had measured his legs and they were the same length, she said I could only tell that with an x-ray. I questioned how she could tell they were different lengths without an x-ray then?! Doomed! :D The scarey thing is, she is a qualified behavourist and works high up in the classes in Obedience, so people will listen to her.

Anyway, that is going off the point. Well done Jess for sticking up for the JRT pup. :-) Let's hope they follow your advice.

Claire

I have never ever seen a bitch carry her pups by the scruff, Cats with kittens yes, but not puppies.  A bitch will normally hold the pups around the ribcage with her whole mouth as most natuaral breess have big enough mouths to hold most of the pup.  Anyone with retrievers will assure us that they tqake the majority of the Quarry in their mouths and don't gnerally dangle it by a flap of skin or limb/wing, unless very inept.

Cats have small mouths compared to size of kittens and they ahve very loose skin at the nape, which baby pups just don't have (Shar Pei possibly excepted :D).

I really cant see the problem. I've seen countless pups lifted by the scruff with not the slightest fuss or ill-effect.

Small adult dogs can also be comfortably lifted in this way. Larger dogs just need an additional supporting hand underneath.

I s'pose you do that at the same time as hacking off their tails. :rolleyes:

:-D :-D

This site never fails to amuse......

My farrier lifts his JRT's by the scruff and they don't bother at all.

I could be wrong so dont jump on me (especially if you are fat ;) :D ) but im sure this is the normal way for people who work their terriers to pick them up, not that I could do it but if I have to get my cats of the top of the wardrobe I do tend to get them by the scruff as its the only bit I can get hold of, this wouldnt be the normal way for me to pick them up though :)

Very true - James lifts his like this when he is ratting with them - the dogs don't even notice they are that excited

Young pups (up to about a fortnight old) are fine being lifted by their scruffs. After that age (in my medium-sized breed) they need supporting underneath as well. In fact I would never carry a wriggly pup without a firm grip on its scruff with one hand, and its body supported tucked under my other arm.
:)

As you say JG, this is about the safest way to hold a wiggeling puppy. What I do hate though is to see the show people pick up a terrier using just the lead and tail!

Regards, John

no way!

That surprises me as I have never found baby pups of the age a bitch would carry them to have much loose skin at all, is it a breed thing?, though once they are running around and 6 weeks plus they certainly so have looser skin.

So I am just saying that a bitch would not carry pups by the scruff, even if this is a good place to grab a dog in an emergency when it slips it's collar etc.

Border Collie bitches certainly carry their puppies by the scruff My late friends bitches used to move their puppies out of the whelping box frequently after around 4 weeks of age When his first bitch did it he couldn't understand how they were getting out into the run before he got up in the morning until he saw her carrying them outside through the entrance flap I even saw one try to scruff her 6 year old son even though he towered above he(he had obviously stepped out of line in the bitches etes)

I have to say the bloke that runs the stables by me picks his JR up by the scruff. Never thought about it before I have to say.

Karen

It does say on the KC website for Parson Russells that their skin should be thick and loose, so maybe it is something you can get away with JRT's.

I think the general consensus is.....its a matter of opinion!  I think I will call off the RSPCA (joke), but remind OH to remind his brother its about time he stopped doing it, strike a happy medium :D

Thanks everyone!

It is the perfectly normal way to pick up a working terrier....I have done it for years as have all the working terrier folk I know & I have never seen a terrier upset by it. Obviously if it were some grossly fat specimen it would not be kind or right, but in a fit, lean worker its the acceptable norm. Its definitely not seen as a punishment by the dog.

You are so right John, I never see the terrier groups normally, only on TV at Crufts and I wince every time they pick them up by the lead and tail!

As a breeder of working JRT's i have to say that our whole family pick up all our adult jacks this way & have done for nearly 60 years..............however we do not pick up young pups by the scruff, one male at 12 weeks hated being picked up by his scruff as his skin was quite tight so we handled him in a nambie pambie way until he was ok, he is now just over a year old & working well this season & hes fine with being picked up by his scruff.

Terriers are hardy dogs they are not dogs you handle with kit gloves, they have been bred for many generations to work fox & a foxes bite is much worse than being lifted by the scruff or pulled out of an earth by the tail.
I love my dogs dearly & would never hurt them in any way, if they yelped when i scruffed them i'd not do it or at least wait until the dog feels comfortable about it.

I've gotten into trouble on this site before with other members over scruffing.  Personally I see absolutely no problem with doing it as a form of disipline in young pups up to about 12 weeks.  Their Dams do it to carry and disipline etc and if its done PROPERLY there is no problem.  I see this as a particularly important form of disipline if one owns large working dogs which I do.  I thought it was a rather childish comment from the person who made the remark about tail docking!!!!  I'm certainly not a fan of tail docking and don't see that its necessary at all these days in most cases but it has nothing to do with and can't be compared to scruffing.

That comment regarding docking was made in reference to another thread which you obviously didn't read. My earlier comment about scruffing was that I didn't know how to do it correctly, and therefore couldn't bring myself to, unlike the dam who has instinct on her side.

From A.Child