So Foxes Deer mink etc are all prey species ? Do tell me what animal apart from man hunts foxes & mink for food(Oops foxes & mink aren't eaten but their skins are used in the fur trade).  Vets have very little wildlife knowledge unless they specialize in wildlife medication & treatment, this why zoos & wildlife parks have specializts vets. 

What do vets know about animal welfare ? Some not very much as a hunt down south gets their vets in to kill their hounds when they get to 7 what does that say for their concern for the welfare of the hounds ? Very little-a Vet near me kept a little dog alive for weeks that had broken it's back & could not walk & was totally incontinent & that had to be tube fed while he waited to see if the dog would regain the use of it's legs & giving the dogs huge amounts of painkillers in the meantime & eventually admitting that the fracture of the spine in three places just behind the dog's shoulders was permanent

As the RSPCA regularly send foxes they have treated to landowners who allow hunting over their land, I would never class them as anything other than in league through the back door with fox hunters

Please dont post your silly faces at me, it makes you appear childlike and weakens your argument

Dear, dear Golden ...tsk tsk. Smiley faces on the internet are an integral part of communication :) It also seems a far better thing to do than to resort to name calling

LOL, how do I join the coven?

:D :D you are SO unfunny :D :D

With your attitude in this thread and previous ones I would think membership wouldn't be allowed.

If I was you I would take a chill pill before filling in your application form!! :-D :-D

Ah Lady Dazzle

This is now urgent can you send me details of the faked/falsified evidence of animal cruelty by hunts as I have been asked for the information by the senior officer in the wildlife unit as they were closely involved in the undercover investigation & most of the videos & photographs were taken by the police officers. You will of course want these law breaking officers suitably punished

Can you send me the info please as soon as possible

Tell me, have you considered anger management?

LOL, calm down ChloeH, you appear to be highly strung and wound up.

So then Golden ...you call people : You patronising twits! and then go on to say I know many of you have been snidely posting that you are above the law on other similair threads. (sic) and also LOL, how do I join the coven?

Hmm ...debating not your *best* subject then?

But you get the gold star in patronising.

Just out of interest, Golden, is your definition of 'patronising' anyone who disagrees with you but can put their point of view without resorting to name-calling?

To be fair, having the RSPCA on your side hardly enobles your cause Golden

The League Against Cruel Sports, the same organisation who are now campaigning to ban shooting?

Stage 1/ Ban fox hunting, it is more humane to shoot foxes.

Stage 2/ Ban shooting, its inhumane!

How much more hypocritical can an organisation become?

Snomaes

Ditto...Liberty...the RSPCA seem to be nothing more than a money making machine.....welfare I don't think so...Their destruction policies prove that.

Well they enjoy the chase so much why not let them see what its really like. Not so much fun for the hunted I bet.

Sharon, what do you suggest as an alternative?

let em run wild, overruning the streets....when the family cat or toy dogs start getting taken or mauled by the fox in the garden, we will see then what the antis think

Oh that is a new one over running the streets Hmm & you believed that story of the baby attacked in the parents lounge by a passing fox as well I suppose

I tell you what Gary so you get to find out what being hunted is like I'll issue the same challenge I did the Master of the Hunt who was blowing his mouth off about breaking the law & who put two fingers up on national TV to the government & says he will still hunt where & when he likes with or without the landowners permission as it was his RIGHT

In Open countryside & 15 minutes start I will hunt you with ONE Schutzhund III trained GSD, you running & me on horse back with ONE dog. Bearing in mind that ONE dog I will be hunting you with can be stopped from actually attacking you whereas foxhounds cannot be called off a cornered fox, Are you up for it then ?

Of course not, neither was the master of the hunt when I put it to him live on the local radio he blustered, he prevaricated & basically avoided the question stating man is a hunter not a prey animal, but then so is a fox

So Gary whenever you are ready let me know & I will set it up & arrange for your health etc to be monitored to show how much you are "enjoying"being hunted, but i won't hold my breath while I wait

Lady Dazzle I am still waiting for the evidence re the fake photos etc on the LACS site  been over a week Does this mean you don't have the evidence ? It is really important for the fakers to be sorted & jailed, didn't you know that the police have a dedicated Wildlife unit that goes under cover with the RSPCA & LACS ?????? or did you think the material was just LACS ??

Look folks why have we started yet another thread on hunting ? - this one seems to have been reduced to a series of name calling and playground taunts. There can be surely very little left to say on this - the ban is here - at the moment all the pro hunters are feeling angry and upset that their hobby has been 'taken away' by others. BUT the proof of the efficacy of the ban will be in the next few years - . my feeling is that by that time, hunts will have switched over to drag hunting or disbanded and the countryside will be none the worse for it. Times have changed and political parties must reflect those changes in attitudes or wither away ( just look at the Tory party - their support of hunting simply alienates them from the mood of the general public and leaves them 'preaching to the converted'). The general election willl be in March next year - if the hunting ban is so unpopular then this will be reflected in the ballot box .

Trevor - I hope you don't regard the hunting issue as the main one upon which to vote in the next election!

Mind you, I think we're a bit hard-pushed to vote for anybody at all at the present time........anyone got any suggestions that are worth considering?

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

The sad thing is that whether Labour get in again or not this ban and all this bad feeling, and all these arguments and divisions, and name calling and protests and arrests and passionate feelings are not going to save a single fox.

I don't believe that we will switch over to drag hunting, the hunt will carry on using hounds to flush foxes & drive them on to the guns.

Think this debate has been 'done to death now'

Lets start a new one.... ooh I know..

Geoff ;)

Hasnt this hunt thing been beaten to death???(no pun intended ;) )
I usually stay out of these debates as they help no-one and always end up the same :( The fact is that hunting HAS been banned,if people still want to go out and hunt,who cares,they will face the consequences whatever they may be.

The one thing that deadens me is when i see a group of people(usually the same ones) ganging up on one person and making them feel like a right eejit and egging them on and when they defend themselves in the same form as which they were addressed then they are made to feel like a fool and i presume like a child being stacked up upon behind the school lunch shed. I really admire the people(underdogs) who stand up for themselves as they truly are throwing themselves into the fire :( I think they have alot of guts! I'm sure there are alot of members who disagree with the majority  or minority,depends which way you look at it,who are to afraid to post in fear of being bullied!

I've not been a member here for very long,but long enough to read the majority of the recent posts and there is very definately a clear pattern and not a very encouraging one.

I am neither here nor there in concern of the hunting ban,i understand both the for and against,but time will tell,not i'm right and your'e wrong and you'll see.

I think some people need to step back and take a long,hard look at themselves and how they make others feel.
I am a school teacher and i deal with almost the exact same tactics and ploys at work every single day,albeit not as devious and cleverly worded as here,but close.

Have a nice day :)

Rose

Rose, I have to take issue with your post.

Are you advocating it is OK for a poster to call other posters "patronising twits" and then be ignored by those posters who have been insulted? I don't see where anyone has "ganged up" or bullied, simply defended themselves from name calling: "twits/coven" spring to mind. I also don't see where anyone has egged that poster on in this thread. There was a post at the beginning accusing people (who have never indicated they have any intention) of breaking the law - and yet we are told to "accept it" and we are not allowed to respond?

Rose, I am more than happy to have a civilized debate with almost anyone about almost anything :) When one person, however, takes to name calling, it immediately demeans their argument.

I am okay with Golden having a different opinion to me, I *do* however, resent the thread degenerating into name calling on page one.

My husband is also a teacher of secondary school children (11-17) and HE recognises the inability to discuss without name calling is one of the major problems with young people nowadays when it comes to deabte and discussion ;)

I have to say i agree with Rose; the tactics employed in the hunting debateare exactly as she says. EXACTLY.
Not to mention the incredible attitude of those who seem to think those against hunting are dim witted - all these out of sight out of mind posts etc... yes, patronising.

Lindsay

Lindsay - surely people can be allowed to express an opinion without being called "twits"?

Who said anything about dim witted?!!

Each time i read the hunting debates, my blood pressure rises. It's not because of the debate itself but it is because of the smug, patronising  attitude. I am sorry but there it is. Period.

Rose is obviously a woman of great perception and understands people very well indeed.

And that's all i am saying - amen! ;)

Lindsay

Yes, my blood pressure also rises - because I see smug, uneducated, patronising, gloating, gleeful, ignorant and naive attitudes from some folk who are anti hunting and it gets my back up aswell. But clearly, those of us who support hunting are just supposed to shut up and get on with it - it would be the other way round had this ban not gone through though, wouldn't it.

And thankfully Lindsay herself has none of those attitudes :) which make her posts on dog topics such a pleasure to read

Cissy xx

Thats why i said *some people* :)

Trouble is Lindsay, the pro hunters are maybe fed up as being portrayed as bloody thirsty killers? Like most things, it works both ways :) I think I will retire from this thread now, it has lost its appeal somehow :)

It *would* be nice to hear from some of the anti hunt supporters exactly how they see the culling of foxes happening from now on though. IF they support shooting of foxes, what about the difficulties of shooting them cleanly?

Well said Rose :D

Trevor, this is a very interesting article about why draghunting is not a viable alternative.
:)

Well, I go away for a day and still the smugness and "we know best" attitudes continue.

There are a hard core on here who wade into every thread with their opinions, and god help anyone that doesn't agree.  The usual suspects will then come out in force to 'gang up' on the person who DARE post on THEIR Board and not comply with their views.

I have seen you in action on this board for the 12+ months I have visited, and I have also seen the way you operate, as a "coven".  Belittling and attempting to appear smug and treating others as illiterate peasents.

http://search.atomz.com/search/?sp-q=fox+hunting&sp-a=sp10013f2c&sp-k=

http://www.labour4guildford.com/Foxhunting.htm

No statistics I've seen posted in the last decade or present have shown a 50/50 divide. The majority are for the ban.
Whether you agree with it or not that is the fact, if it was grossly unpopular with the public en mass there is no way the govt would've acted.

But as Trevor says this hunting thing has been done on CD. I feel like we're chasing tails :D There's a good argument (sorry debate) on www.debate.org if anybody needs to vent :D  :D

Exactly Spook !

And neither does the article at the start of this thread say that the split is 50/50 for and against.

It says & I quote:

"The poll also found that half the public supports the ban, while 35 per cent oppose it. More surprisingly, 23 per cent of Labour supporters were against it."

So "half the public support the ban" so that's 50% then while only 35% oppose it and presumably the remaining 15% have no firm view one way another.

Thanks for that Jeanjeanie - the section on alternatives was interesting in that it clearly stated that the switch to draghunting would not succeed:

a) because farmers would see no value in it - (then build in a value by charging for drag hunting on farm land)

b) because there would be no 'pest control' element - (In Scotland MORE foxes have been killed since hunting has been abolished so clearly pest control would still go on without hunting)

c) because people would choose not to take part- (this then means that the hunters themselves would rather see the traditions and economic advantages to hunting die than take part in a perfectly viable alternative.)

as I have stated before there seems little point in returning time and again to this subject as attitudes and opinions are so entrenched and unlikely to change no matter how clear and impassioned on BOTH sides. there sadly seems no middle ground when it comes to blood sports and the only realistic way forward is to try to salvage some of the traditions and other benefits within an activity that would satisfy the legal requirements of the ban.

Jeangenie

thanks for that link.
Besides the info on draghunting it should make interesting reading for those who quite possibly do not realise the impact hunts have on economy, the numbers of hounds that would possibly have to be destroyed and so on

it should be compulsary reading for everyone.

this part alone would maybe have made some who are against think twice - own pockets hit often mean more than furry animals.

Effects on Government

Taxation and Public Expenditure

The first effect of the job losses following abolition of hunting would be loss of tax and National Insurance revenue from the jobs lost. This is estimated in the area of £20million a year - the equivalent to 4p a litre duty on Petrol and Diesel. The unemployment created by abolition would add to Public Expenditure. Additional effects would be likely to include measures to help agriculture with extra knackers costs and a reduction of Betting Duty to save racing from the Irish competition (where racing is supported by the government)

taken from the link JG posted http://www.huntinginquiry.gov.uk/evidence/horseponytaxcomm.htm#p2

Do not want to intrude on your debate, but thinking about it my CKC Spaniel dog suddenly became very ill a few years ago after a walk on his lead on a public right of way across a field. The vet put it down to him picking up some fox poison on the walk, and if it had not been for the dedicated vet he would have not survived. My dog liked sniffing and rummaging around in hedges, and one or two other dogs had actually died, don't know whether it was deliberately done to deter people from taking their dogs on that route, but the side effects from the poison were horrible. Cavaliers have got long ears but Charlie's were very long and the ears themselves not the insides filled up with fluid, so much so they weighed very heavy and he could not move his head. He had to have 2 injections a day for a week, then as fast as he became ill he recovered and lived till he was 13yrs old. But he was extremely ill and was lucky to survive.

I doubt that a farmer would deliberatly put poison where it could be got at by a dog. Most farmers are more responsible than that (Although of course there is always the rotten apple as in any society.) There is codes of conduct for the control of foxes with poisons. (Although I'm not keen on poisons for the control of foxes because there is always a risk that some animal will push the poison out into a position where it really is a risk to other animals. Hunting really is the safest option in the culling of foxes.)

A couple of years ago there were a number of dogs poisoned in a wood with public access just down the road from me. The wood is beside common land and had been used by dog walkers for very many years. My guess in this instance was some psyco who thinks it clever to poison dogs.

Regards, John

Thanks for your reply John, and I must add I like the way you always finish off with, Regards John, very nice. This particular walk has been a right of way for many years and I can remember when I was younger it was quite a treat to go for a walk and see the bluebells, and was nice as it brought you out at a Pub, so you could have some refreshment before the return walk home. However most of the land was sold off by Lord Wolseley when he went bankrupt, and the person who now owns it has done everything in his power to deterr people from using it. Mainly put in lots of stiles covered with barbed wire that are very awkward to get over and unless you have a small dog you can carry, made it impossible to go walking with a dog.  It's a shame but then I can see a farmers point of view as not everyone abides with the countryside rules, and they spoil it for other people.  There are lots of people around who think they are immune to rules and regulations, worst are drivers using mobile phones. Where I live it is semi rural on the edge of a town, I have 3 single track lanes round my property but they are still Public Highway and carry traffic, but the amount of people who walk their dogs off a lead is incredible, even young puppies. I see the dog come tearing round and the owner is about a minute after them. But going back to the point about fox poison, there are some people who don't like dogs for whatever reason and will do everything they can to harm them, wierd but true. Personally I prefer dogs to alot of so called human beings.  Sue & Sasha

Trouble with barbed wire is that it is about the cheapest form of fencing and possibly the best stock fencing. I teach my dogs both "Over" and "Under" so where possible I can send them under a fence. If they do have to jump barbed wire I try to put something over it. My game bag is usual or if that is in use I take my wax jacket off and lay that over. A lot of people these days are carrying pieces of the foam water pipe insulation material (You know the stuff, it's split to fit over the pipe to lag it against freezing) and slip this over the wire. It's light and works very well.

I do get annoyed when I see dogs off lead on the pavement. So few dogs are that steady. As an ex motorcyclist several of my friends ended up in hospital as a result. As luck would have it none were killed but the risk is very real.

Regards, John

Most of country file's viewers are pro hunting & as a minority program holding a telephone vote how difficult do you think it is for the CA to flood the call lines with pro votes

Just like some other programs with telephone voting to flood the lines by hitting the redial is the way to do it

Now if it had been an independant Mori poll might have been more believable

By the way Lady Dazzle just been asked again if you had sent me details of the falsified evidence you stated you had, but I don't seem to have received it