It says parents say that dosent actully state they have studied other countries :D

how can they say its the most unfriendly if they dont look at other countries too . im sorry ive been in many different countries and seen how they treat children . im sorry but I totaly disagree with the statment made That the uk is well regonised  world wide as being child unfriendly . Mabe they should go visit egypt and some of the third world countires!! places ive been and seen .I Think a letter to the bbc is in order here really how can they say the uk is unfriendly when they dont look at other places surely it dosent make sence  , gotta laugh but I still will email and find out what was said about all the other places ;) such a big statment ,
neice whos a tiny tot :P we go into places that are for children ball pits ect and they are very welcoming , normaly home well before 8  when adults like to go eat ..its not good to keep children past there bedtimes .

Most mainland European countries are very accepting of children as human beings, not as strange little aliens to kept to one side. Children go where their parents do - they're an accepted part of society. Far more so then the UK.

I would also like to add that i have rarely had a problem with children in restaurants...........but i have had plenty of trouble with so called adults!

It isn't a matter of comparing the UK to other countries, it is a fact that the UK *is* child unfriendly. People do not welcome children into shops, cafes etc etc People in general do not like children here, believing that they should be seen and not heard.

I think a lot of us have lived abroad and know the differences between the UK and many other countries, it doesn't alter the fact that the UK is not child friendly. I think you are confusing two issues here :)

Hi,

Surely they learn from the start at home around YOUR table and IN highchair no need to work up slowly to different restaurants;-)

Whether they eat at home,macdonalds,beefeater the Savoy the manners are the same,
No running around,
Hand to mouth when coughing,
Tissue up sleeve,
Sit up straight at table,
One hand to eat a sandwich if too big cut in two
Wait quietly for everyone to finish small talk accepted shouting not
Knife and fork tidy on plate when finished
Ask to leave the table

Children will learn this no problem my 2 yr old needs al ittle promting but at least I can take him out without embarassing us and at very least does not get off his chair unless to toilet or shout and will put his hand to mouth when coughing and does not feel any need to handle food with his fingers.
This is not something we have to think about it come naturally.

As for breastfeeding I would refuse to leave and demand see the manager at the table which would disturb far more peoples dinner.I should not brestfeed because this food was not bought on the premises I think not :-D
As a family and while breastfeeding having dinner i've come across couple having dinner that have too much to drink and some of the conversation leaves alot to be desired and the language used is some cases is awful,much prefer to see a woman brestfeeding at dinner that some of the other thing i've just mentioned :-)

Briony:-)

I'm a firm believer in "children should be seen and not heard!!......................only kidding ;)

Gotta admit tho it does annoy me when parents let their kids run around squaking in and around other diners tables,so that THEY can enjoy their meals in peace,stuff the other customers.
I've lost count of the amount of time i've heard parents chastising their kids with "you dont do it at home,then dont do it here!" These are probaly the kids who never get to go out to restaurants and get way over excited.
I love dining out too much so therefore my kids are used to it.

Briony i guess youd'e need lots of rules with 5 kids,gosh how do you do it???I dont even know which fork and spoon go with what   2 is more than enough for me.

I thiink that children should be taught at a very early age to be considerate of other people. This includes behaving when in public and being polite to their elders. I have 5 children as well, though mine were a bit more spaced out than Brionys and we taught them AS they came along as I am sure Briony does too. The older ones then help the younger ones. My youngest two are typical 14 and 11 year olds but know how to behave!

:)

Hi,

Exactly Melody :-)
Younger ones watch older ones :-)
But even if there are only 1or 2 children in family surely these children will be learning from the parents :-)

I actually get so many comments about having  a large family and not all nice ;-) but actually from my experience of larger families seem to be better behaved generally or is it that alot of parents these days just can't be bothered with essentials like manners,and good behaviour?

My lot have no choice but to do as they are told,otherwise they know perfectly well we can't or get out whether shopping,day outs, visits etc.We have to have a routine ,yes even mine can play up at home and a couple of times in a supermarket nobody children are perfect ;-)
Then we do set rules,I do not tidy the childrens rooms the 2 yr old I ask him to pick up toys and pop them in his box in his room which he does and the odd one or two hes missed I pick up. (well occasionally)clean them yes ,they have to wash their own pack lunch boxes when they come in from school,they pick up their clothes and put them in the wash.If the clothes are not in the basket they don't get washed.
basket I don't do it.The children set the table,they pick up their toys and 13 yr old will hoover her bedroom and dust and she brilliant just now and helps me alot.
All the children apart from the 2 yr old load and unload the dishwasher,and they all help with the wood and logs
bringing it down from the large wood shed to top up large log box box by the back door.
They all help with the feeding of the dogs and cat.

Bottom line is all children can and will act up on occasion  but is like what Melody says they should know how to behave and when it really matters. :-)

Briony :-)

Briony

The point that I was trying to make is that whilst I considered my children to be very well behaved - we, like you insist on proper table manners etc - we went to some quite posh hotels when they were small (mostly as part of my husband's work) and there is no way that I would have taken a 2 and 4 year old down to dinner at 8pm and expected them to sit politely for 2 to 3 hours while we adults chatted (and other adults on other tables). By the time they were 7 or 8, we could explain to them that dinner might last a long time and gave them the choice to come with us and sit quietly, or to have dinner in the room (or if we were at home - to stay there). Most children enjoy the eating part of a restaurant, but can't understand the need of adults to sit at the table and chat over coffee for a long while afterwards :)

What I do object is people taking children to ADULT restaurants (ie where adults go to have a peaceful evening away from their children and pay for it) when the children would obviously rather not be there ? I am not talking about Beefeaters etc where I quite expect to see children. It may be normal on the continent for children to go to restaurants late into the evening - but it is not (yet) here :(

Daisy

'It's a very normal and natural thing to do'.

Yes, and so is going to the toilet but I don't think there's many who would want to see that in public places ;)

lol @Joyce

er, bit of a difference there joyce.

I was just trying to make the point that, if people justify the act of breastfeeding in a public place on the fact that it's normal and natural, they have to be consistent with their argument.  Going to the toilet is also a perfectly natural and normal bodily function.

There are some who would find both acts equally embarrassing to witness so a little consideration for others is what's needed, I think.

Would someone find a dam feeding her pups embarrassing? No. This is because breasts have a sexual connotation and *some* folk can't differentiate between the two. I don't see why a feeding mum has to be "considerate" to others and sit in a toilet! That said, I would prefer all and sundry not to ogle at me so I would be discreet for my sake and not theirs!

Dams usually feed their pups in the privacy of their own beds.  I don't think I've ever seen one feeding their young in a restaurant, Chloe ;)

I didn't suggest they were - but even at home in their own beds folk are not made uncomfortable by it.

A restaurant is a place specifically for eating. That includes baby humans too. ;)
:)

Hi,

Sorry but I will contine to breastfeed in public places ,I wouldn't care BUT you can't see anything so what is there to take offence about????You cannot see any part of my breast/ nipple so what exactly is the problem???.The fact I may be breastfeeding at a table even though you can't tell im doing such an act??? :-)
The problem appears to be with other peoples attitude in general to breastfeeding ;-)

Briony:-)

Hi,

Joyce you may have point if you can see my breast /nipple in public but you can't so im feeding which is perfectly normal and natural.Going to the toilet although also normal and natural is al ittle harder to cover yourself up and still perform and also make no noise ;-)

Unlike breastfeeding that makes no smell,noise and can be performed so you don't see any body part :-)

Briony:-)

Hi Briony
I'll say again - if the right to breastfeed in public is based on the fact that it's normal and natural (as has been posted earlier on this thread) then it follows that you should be able to do anything in public which is normal and natural. And you can't, 'cos you will probably get arrested ! ;)

So the argument needs a different basis, that's all I'm trying to get across.

Hi Joyce,

Well another point would be in some parts of the world humans breastfeed and preform tolilet duties completely with no clothes and these cultures it doesn't seem to offend and is completely ntural and normal but more Western societies have adopted over many years that this is wrong  but not in the beginning ;-)

Briony :-) who still chooses to toilet in private and brestfeed in public where I can't be seen doing "the act" :-D

Hi ,
also another thought brestfeeding,toileting,and another act which doesnt take too much thinking about are all normal and natural,but it depends how you choose carry out to perform these acts which may get you arrested so the other normal natural acts need to be done in private but breastfeeding act can be done by using clever clothing and positioning so this normal natural act is still technically done in private as no body part can be seen :-)So unless someone from another table is going to across and look down inside my top im performing anatural normal function which no one knows im doing :-)

Briony :-)

I'm sorry I don't normally post on this forum but I am horrified that someone is likening breast feeding to going to the toilet!! How can feeding your child be compared to going to the loo?? I really don't understand that way of thinking at all. It is the most normal natural healthy thing to do for your child and no woman should be made to feel uncomfortable doing so. Also I think that it is a person who sees this in a sexual connotation who has a problem with it which I find a bit perverse on their part.
I don't know if this post makes sense now as this subject has made me very angry. I'll go away now and have a wee lie down cos I still can't get over the going to the toilet comparison
K

Hi,

What was being said is there are natural normal functions of the body :-)
Nobody was saying breastfeeding is exactly the same as going to the toilet because obviously they are 2 completely different acts and opposites end of body :-)
What I was saying breastfeeding is a natural normal body function acts,so is breathing,toileting etc.
I'm pro breastfeeding where possible although I have also bottlefed as well,but given choice breastfeeding is better but not to point that mum baby are miserable if it doesnt work for them ,then bottle is better :-)

Also I don't let other people make me uncomftable about breast feeding my baby as they can't see anything anyway and i've fed on a bus with absolutely no problems it  only because a problem if people make into a huge issue :-)
There really no need to get upset its not worth it far more worst things in life :-)

Briony :-) 7 months preg and will breastfeed this one

...and did you see that (mad?) woman in NZ who was breast feeding her sbt, to make it more protective of her daughter???

I remeber reading about an Amazonian tribe that prized pigs, and that women would often breatfeed an orphan.runt piglet alongside their own infant!!!

I breastfed my son to 14 months (only morning and night at this stage0 as he wouldn't take formula or cows milk other than what was in foods like Yogurt.

As to sexual conotation/context most breast feeding women I have spoken to find their breasts very unsexual at this time, and feel almost like they belong to the baby so are not part of their sex life.  May just be me and the ladies I have spoken to.

I have had so many arguments on this subject ! :(

I decided that for my reasons that I was not going to BF for either of my girls. ( These are personal and not anything I wish to discuss one here)

I have been told by many BF pro people that I am ignorant, stupid and do I realise I could kill my babies because of my misinformed decision They think there is no reason why anybody should not do it.

However I 100% think that anybody should be able to BF anywhere and that it is natural and why should it be a controlled thing to do it this country ?

It has been a very sore subject for me and didn't post before but plucked the courage up ! I do get very upset by this :)

Lucy
xx

Lucy, I couldn't bf either, and it wasn't through lack of trying :(

When I had my youngest daughter, that was all they seemed to go on about. I always seemd to be arguing with people :(

I once had some meetings with a client - from eastern europe, together with her husband and very young child (under a year). She was a past master at feeding her child without you even knowing.  She was calm and relaxed and didn't make a huge issue of the whole thing.

I breast fed my first daughter, who is strong and healthy, and could not breast feed my second child. My youngest daughter has Asthma, has had much more illness than her older sister, and if someone sneezes in Cumbria, my yougest, in the Isle of Man, catches it.  However, I lived abroad when I had my children and breast feeding was the norm - bottle feeding was not that popular.

However, I do think mothers should be able to choose what is best for them because having a stressed out mother is possibly worse. 

Hi,

I couldn't brestfeed my 1st 3 babies and these were bottlefed :-)
It wasn't until baby number 4 came along I sucessfully braestfed completely and will hopefully this one.
I always maintain brestfeeding is better of course it is BUT it does not become the best method of feeding if both mother and baby are not happy :-) and at the end of the day that is what counts a happy healthy baby and a happy mum which ever way you decide to feed.
To be honest it has nothing to do with anyone else how you choose to feed your baby while im pro breastfeeding im not antibottle feeding after all that how I chose to feed 3 of mine .

Briony :-)

Sorry I know this won't be popular, but if I pay to go for a meal in a restaurant then I want to enjoy it.  I don't want screaming kids and I don't want to see a baby being obviously breastfed.  Is it too much to ask that the mother leaves a bottle with a babysitter for the evening, or expresses her milk into a bottle, or that she goes into a cloakroom and does it in private.  I don't want to see bare boobs in a restaurant, and just because a baby is attached to them doesn't make it acceptable.

Before I get too much flak, I must just say that I breastfed my children, but I did it in private.  Restaurants and pubs didn't allow children then, so there was no question of taking them.  If we wanted to go, we had to make other arrangements or stay at home.

Last year I had a nice meal in a Brewer's Fayre on a Saturday evening, but it was completely ruined by kids tearing round the tables, banging into them and screaming and shouting.  When the manager asked if we were enjoying our meal, I explained why we wouldn't be coming again, and the people on the next table agreed.  He said it was a 'family friendly' restaurant.  I said, fine, but we had spent £60 on two meals and he had lost our custom for the sake of about 4 cheap kids' meals.  Was that good business?  The restaurant was also half empty.

When we went back a couple of weeks ago, guess what - the child's play area was gone, and the restaurant was full.

Hi,

Sorry but I have taken babies into formal restaurants sucessfully breastfed and know one knew I was doing it.
So I was breastfeeding privately and you could not tell I was feeding,so a person on another table could tell wether I was cuddling my baby or feeding it and to top it all was so good just went straight off to sleep with no sound :-)
However some of the other customer language and topics of diiscussion on table close by which could clearly be heard and clearly had a few to drink supposely business outing I found far more offensive and we did ask if we could move further away half through our meal to another table spoiling OUR meal which we paid alot for.
So I believe it cuts both ways.
And I was breastfeeding in private as you could see NO BODY PART :-)
In all my times I've never had anyone complain or arestaurant ask me to move or use private room .

Briony ;-)

I also believe that Brewers Fayre is a family restaurant day/evening :-)
Obviously the more formal resta are less likely to attract children especially in the evenings although Like I say I breastfed in one of these no problem ;-)

Briony :-)

Pjw i am shocked that you would consider it acceptable to breastfeed a baby in a restroom...which is actually the polite name for a toilet!  its disgustingly unhygeinic. sorry if you went to a restaurant with a play area, its bizzarre that you should complain about it...its like going to a football match and complaining that its noisy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The trouble is it's hard to find a restaurant these days without a play area.

So. Pinklillies, if your baby had a dirty nappy you would refuse to go into the toilet to change it?  Toilets in restaurants have to conform to hygeine standards and are usually pretty good.  Sitting with the baby cuddled to you and feeding would be no more risky than taking it into the ladies and half undressing it to change a nappy.  When you decide to have a baby you have to be prepared to make some adjustments to your lives.  If that means getting a babysitter, using a bottle once a month or so, or even not going to restaurants for a couple of months, then so be it - not too much sacrifice is it?  Don't expect everyone else to make the concessions for you.

Also, as to why go into a Brewer's Fayre, well it is convenient to where I live and also it was a spontaneous decision - everywhere else was booked up.  Also, the play area was only a few slides and things outside, and as it was evening and dark, I didn't really think it was relevant.  Anyway, even if the restaurant had had a designated inside play area, why should that have deterred me from going?  If the parents had controlled their children and confined their noise etc to the designated area it would have been fine, it is children running and screaming round the dining tables that I objected to. 

Hi,

By the same principle why should I let someone else do my mothering when I can perfectly well do it myself and I dont give feeds in a bottle until 4 months plus I prefer my body as it does it better than a bottle :-)I choose to have my young babies with me why should I stay at home ??

As its done in perfect privacy and again I state no body part can be seen,and therfore see no reason why i should therefore feed in toilet/restroom call it what you will.Nobody from another would even know I had just breastfed so unless your conversation on your table was soooooo boring and you walked over and looked down my top you wouldn't be able to tell what I was doing.
As I said also before other customers conversation,manners leaves alot to be desired and im sure no in fact I'M POSITIVE my 4 CHILDREN would show some adults exactly what polite conversation was and some better manners  ;-D
I take the view I personally did have children for someone else to look after or to leave at home :-)
I use babysitters not very often and you usually for emergencies .

Breers fayre may be convinient to wher you live BUT its a family restaurant all the same even if doesnt have an indoor play area this kind restarant actually allowa children in the evening .
You must also remember don't tar all children with the same brush :-)

I object to some adults language and gestures at some places doesn't mean ALL adults are like this mabe some adults are better off in designated kids corner till they learn some manners and they have grown up :-)

Brriony :-)

Hi ,

Actually there seems to be plenty of good quality restaraunts without play areas I have been to many with the children that do not have play areas,as we are usually no longer than 2 hours if we take the children to dinner and a table booked for 6-30 -7 (youngest one usually had sleep in pm).And no my children do not run around the tables or scream,know how use cutlery correctly even the 2 yr old can use fork correctly when eating peas,keep elbows in,hankie up sleeve,ask to leave the table this came with practice and good manners at my own table.So why should I not be proud of their good manners and behaviour and take them out to formal restarants ????

Briony :-)

Pjw ...i would change a babies nappy in a toilet, but I would NOT feed it in there. Just the same as I myself would wee in  a toilet, but I would NOT eat my meal in there!! Would you? ( actually maybe you would have found it quieter in there!)