Melodysk this really is my last post because i should have been out doing food shopping ready for my day out playing in the country tomorrow ;).

I have said several times, and not only on this thread, that we go round in circles anyway and in that sense yes, it IS boring!

But i see so many misconceptions re anti hunt peeps which is why i have tried to give another view. That's why i post.

I will be honest and say that today especially some posts have "got my goat" in the sense that there are dotted here and there  (IMHO) remarks re the very ignorant anti hunt peeps, and that at times can get to sound just too smug esp. because some of us ARE anti hunt peeps: so although it isn't exactly personal, it is hard to take. It means there is less  genuine opinion, experience, or decent debate. Personally speaking I do find it hard to debate in that judgemental atmosphere. It's also a real shame because the chance for more understanding is lost. I have not made any similar remarks muself as far as i am aware except maybe today! This board is pretty pro hunt and i do respect one or two peeps on here who are involved in that. It isn't easy for me to put forward my viewpoint because of it either. Obviously this is JMO but it is my perspective today and it is colouring what i write.

<< I just fail to see what is the lesser of two evils>>

I know. As i have said many times i don't know the answer to specific problems re hunting. I wonder if as humans we will ever be hunted and how we will feel if that happens? It's not so far fetched really - if we have a devastating incident on earth and others evolve.. Who knows?

Lindsay
x

thats it YOU dont know the answer & there fore shoild not want it banned! enjoy your day out in the countryside.but have a think who keeps it like it is for you to enjoy

Oh for heaven's sake!

You know nothing about me or what i do in the countryside - of course, i just play. Ignorant townie, that's me :rolleyes: so why should i have any opinions?

Stop getting so personal Michelled. It's exactly that sort of comment that inflames and widens the gap and causes more aggro.

If you want to carry this on, go by PM because i did say i was not going to reply/post any more just now and you knew that.

Lindsay

you can have all the opinions you like,
you are NEVER going to understand about the country way of life & thats that

id like TB to spend a week in exford & then perhaps he may understand abit about the countryside

& perhaps you could walk in the Prime Minsters shoes for a week too It might make you understand where he is coming from too

I've never lived more than a few months in a town as I am a country born & bred & hate towns.

There is a definite "class"system out here The working class who work for a living & the non working class who don't !

We do have a "country set"who believe they can do anything they like where they like & when they like & they are not all rich ! They do race round the lanes in their super hatch backs at all hours ! As for the horse riders whose poor horses get scared witless when these "set"members roar past them they now use the bridleways for riding as they are too narrow for cars

Michelled when you say "understand" do you mean "agree" ;)

I was born in the Kent countryside and grew up there - my grandparents were farmers - I could not afford to live and raise my family in the countryside so for a while had to live in the suburbs - I am now back 'in the sticks' and have some land and some animals again - I think that I do 'understand' rural ways and horror of horrors I do NOT agree with you about hunting ! :D

not fully then it seems!!!
do you not agree that a ban will devastate rural villages & economys?
if not why not? how will these people make money if nobody has money to spend?
we have limited public transport here,a couple of buses  a week ,from some villiages, how will people afford to run their cars?

how will a ban devastate villages and livelihoods ? - if the switch is made to drag hunting then that part of the rural economy which depends on hunting will still have a source of income - if farmers do not want drag hunting on their land then it is they who are denying their villages a viable alternative - and I'm pretty certain that some enterprising soul will come up with other equestrian pursuits to take the place of hunting it's a god given opprtunity for some entrepeneur !

blame the farmers,how typical!
i think drag hunting is really hard on the horses,much worse than hunting proper.id not go drag hunting,its all about going flat out & jumping huge fences.

i

actually hope im proved wrong in a way,but  dont think i will be.

i hope foxes are managed humanely & the countryside remains the same & isnt devastaed . i really do hope that.

however if the worse does happen i dont think oh blame the farmers is a good response. TB & his government must take the blame.

how long before dog shows/training is banned for being cruel???? not long

dont think the gap could be any wider could it?
hunting is banned as from feb,you lot may have "won" for the time being,but i think time will see who is right.

we get personal because its our lives you are messing with & the lives of our friends & family.

i have no wish at all to pm you,i dont get into all that. anything i have to say i will say on here,if you dont want to hear it,dont read it.

all it is to you is what you precieve as animal cruelty,but a ban is sooooo much more than that.

>Generally speaking nature knows best and  sorts out populations etc

I agree, which is why wolves used to be native to GB, and would prey on foxes to keep numbers steady. Since their extermination (due to Man) in the mid 1700s (I think!) Man has had to take on the role, and the form of control closest to 'nature's way' of death by wolf-pack is death by hound-pack.

Wolves hunted foxes ????????? Er No  neither is a prey animal Wolves lived on Deer & the like & foces on Rabbits & hares small rodents etc

My friends in Russia who have both in their area have never seen the wolves hunt the foxes & as they are naturalists as well as historians so they should know

Well said Gilly...

Geoff

foxhunting is NOT about working in the countryside - it is precisely about people getting their entertainment from it !!!.

I personally would have no real issues about a few folk being paid to cull foxes in whatever is th most humane method - I do however have a BIG problem with people doing it as a HOBBY !!.

Trevor - if the people in the field at he back of the hunt don't see what happens when a fox is caught then surely it means they are going for the opportunity to ride? Can you please answer me this: if there was a way of banning the field from being within 50 - 100 yards of the actual business end of the hunt - would that solve the problem?

If they are going for the opportunity to ride then they could go draghunting - there can be no reason for a whole crowd of folk on horseback (or foot) to chase one animal with a large pack of hounds . As long as the chase and death is used as the basis for the enjoyment of the ride then that chase will be prolonged for as long as possible, causing unnecesary cruelty. Hunting for entertainment leads hunts to view their hounds and horses as 'tools of the trade' and they too readily disposed of them when no longer providing an 'exciting enough 'service.

If the culling effect of the hunt was the main point then it would be done in the most efficient and quickest way ( lamping and shooting) As long as the entertainment value of the hunt is upermost ( and after all that is what people are paying their subscriptions for !) then the welfare of ALL the animals concerned must be  seriously compromised.

Trevor. Why would a farmer allow a draghunt across their land for entertainment? They allow the hunt because the hunt performs a service.

Why would the chase be prolonged as long as possible? They don't just hunt one fox a day.

This is just going round and round in circles again. Same old arguments same old discussion. I'm never going to change my mind and you won't change yours so yet again I am going to stop talking about this subject on here :D

it is a whole way of life that affects 100s of people in the countrysde. cant antis grasp that point????????????

i suppose its easier to ignore that point-than face it!!!!!

Michelled why do you do lots of small posts?

If i am not allowed to have an opinion on hunting, then following your logic, none of us could have opinions on things we have not experienced - so that knocks out the War, (have you no opinion on that?) plus all sorts of crimes.

You can't have one rule for one subject and change it for others.

Lindsay

hi,because im at work & serving customers etc

when did i say you couldnt have an opinoin???? i just do not agree with it.

NOT a hobby but job or way of life. there is a differance

Trevor, I wouldnt imagine that distinction has any relevance to the fox.

With regard to the original question, I am in favour of retaining hunting, but feel that if pro-hunters feel that this debate is just about class warfare then they are mistaken. As with all contentious issues, peoples views are driven by a multitude of different motives.

Whilst some people may see this as a chance to 'have a go at the toffs' I am convinced that for the majority of anti-hunters they purely do not like the thought of a fox being deliberately hunted by dogs. Nothing I have read on this board thus far has suggested to me that people like Trevor & Lindsay have any motive other than the welfare of the fox.

I respect their views and their motives but still disagree with them. My view is that the fox population as a whole will not benefit from the ban, and would argue that death by 'natural causes' would be no easier on the fox than either being hunted or shot efficiently.

In my view to stereotype this arguement as rich v poor or town v country does neither side any favours nor increases anyones understanding. I believe that as a nation we are moving in a progressively more sentimental and anthropomorphic direction (Disney has a lot to answer for!) This is what really drives the debate, I can understand the shift but dont necessarily agree with it.

good post havoc!!!!!!

i will just add that i am a normal working class girl who happens to live in a rural area,that i dearly love & dont want it to be devastated.

ive had enough now,bowing out,as im going home.

what is the point of saying anything anyway?
we all have the love of our dogs in common & i will keep that thought :)

as ive said before,its now up to TB & all you antis to prove us wrong,i guess what happens over the next two years will prove it one way or the other anyway.

the thing is if im wrong then its all fine and dandy,but if the antis are wrong? well nuff said

lots of doggy love!

BTW trevor/lindsey i love BSDs!!!!!hope to get one one day!!!!!

Believe that Teri has them too (am I right ! if so HELLO :D - how's the pups !!) - you'll nver go back to another breed once you've had a Belgian !!

HELLO TREVOR!

What was the give away, just in the name or the continual insomnia driven timing of my posts? :D

All progress reports on "the kids" to date have been a delight to hear - we got wonderful homes that stood up well to fierce interrogation and multiple visits <LOL>   We're regularly updated on all of them by phone or email and also get to see two of the boys regularly.  Of course one little girl stayed at home - "Mayhem"  - by name and by nature - *proper* Belgian then :D :D :D

Hopefully we'll be back to our usual showing pattern in 2005 so should see you soon - especially now that you've been "Terved" again ;)  

Teri 

Yes that was a good post - looks like you and me can agree on something Michelled ;)

Havoc it's good that you can understand those against the hunt have good reasons from their viewpoint :)

Interesting point about the anthropomorphic views... I have just started reading a book about the emotional lives of animals and it has me gobsmacked. It is written from a behavioural and scientific view point and shows how we shy away from the very idea...

Originally scientists such as Darwin and others described animals in emotional terms but often (for various reasons) it stopped. I discovered in the same book that babies were until very recently operated on without anaesthetic because they were not considered fully human in a scientific sense due to the fact that, like puppies, they could not speak or properly communicate. I was shocked at that, really shocked!

Lindsay
X

Excellent post.

I do in some ways feel that some Labour MP's are "having a go at the toffs"...I cannot understand otherwise why they have continued in such determination to get this ban through when frankly they are useless at anythng else! The Disney comment is very well used there.

Michelled you are right, we all have the love of our dogs in common and mustn't forget that :)

Lindsay
X

<if the switch is made to drag hunting then that part of the rural economy which depends on hunting will still have a source of income>

I knew that this suggestion would come up sooner or later!

Hounds have been selectively bred for generations (more than 300 years in some of the older packs), to hunt their quarry.

How would you 'convert' the hounds to drag hunting and take away their instinct to hunt foxes?

Try this scenario, a drag hunt is arranged on land which previously has been used for fox hunting, so there is a healthy local population of foxes.

The drag hunt starts and the hunt moves out. The drag crosses over the spoor of a fox, what do you think the hounds will do:
a) continue to follow the drag trail?, or
b) deviate onto the path of Mr Fox?

If you answered a), you are hopeful but naive. If you answered b) you are more than likely correct and have just witnessed a pack of hounds and a field of riders breaking the law!

This is why hunting hounds can no more be re-trained to drag-hunt than prejudiced MPs can be re-trained to allow minority groups to have freedom of choice.

Snomaes

Well said, snomaes.

Thats odd as some of the best drag hounds have come from fox hunting kennels At least that was what the one of the top drag hunters told me at a local country fayre Of course he could have been lying but he gets his from one of the Cumbrian hunts usually the puppies that they don't have walkers for that are destined to be killed as surplus to requirements

we were talking about the economic role that hunting plays within a community - perhaps this generation of hounds could not be retrained - but as they only have a working life of 5 years or so (before they are 'disposed of :() then the next generation of hounds could be trained from the start to  drag hunt - that way kennels could still carry on with their breeding programmes and all the cultural 'benefits' of hunting would remain - as to the question of why farmers would let drag hunts on their land - simple - they could charge the participants a fee - a good alternative source of income I would have thought.

I would however want to see all hunts take full responsibility for the welfare of all the hounds that they bred - in the same way that all rsponsible breeders do - imagine the outcry if we all shot our show dogs when they no longer were 'useful'. the greyhound racing community is beginning to face up to this fact and the hunting community would need to as well.

It is only a class thing in the eyes of those who believe in a class system.

As for foxes killing for fun what another load of tosh they kill excessively when they find a ready source of food so that they can return to collect the ones they cannot carry away. There was much less hen house raudung before myxomatosis  was introduced to reduce the rabbit population in France which then spread to the UK forcing the fox to seek other food sources on a bigger scale than before

The disease was transmitted from Australia by a French Physician, doctor A Delille, who wished to control the rabbit population on his country estate near Paris. The disease rapidly spread into the wild population in France and then was brought, entirely by accident, from France in 1953. There is no evidence that the disease was intentionally brought into Britain but there is no doubt that some farmers moved the disease around using diseased rabbits to control the population of the rabbits locally.

We have locally several organic & free range chicken farmers who never have any raids on their hen houses as they take the correct precautions, which include a free ramging flock protection dog on an evening, who has yet to encounter a fox trying to raid the hen houses(CCTV footage has proved this)

They do not hunt with hounds  & don't allow them over their land either following several incidents involving the hounds & hunters causing damage to crops, livestock & domestic animals. Also being Organic farms they hve areas that are dedicated to SSSI & wildlife. However even after being told they were not allowed to hunt over the land the hunt continued to do so until a court order was served on them & the Hunt Master, several of the hunt servants(now that is a class title that the hunt use)& followers were charged & convicted of criminal damage did they stop. Since then Trepass has become a criminal offence

By the way Lady Dazzle did you forget to PM me with the evidence you had of forged evidence of being produced against hunts, I was on Badger watch last night & the Wildlife Police Officer asked me if you had produced it yet as he has mentioned it to his senior officer & they are keen to get the offending RSPCA & Police Wildlife officers investigated