I'm sure if I'm wrong I will be redirected, my question did'nt seem to fit in any other category!
I have a male castrated tibetan terrier, hopefully in the New Year we will be joined by another one.
All being well we would like a bitch. I don't want to have the bitch spayed.
My question is, as we already have a male all be it castrated, would there be any problem when the bitch comes into season ie would the male try & mate her, or as he is castrated would he not bother with her?
I really don't want to appear "thick" I want to cover any sort of problem before it may arise!!!

admin - title edit

It really depends on your dog.

I have known some castrated dogs who don't even register when a bitch is in season and I have also known some that will be as bad, if not worse than an entire dog, and it is not impossible for them to mate and tie with the bitch.

Obviously no puppies will result from such matings, but injuries to either dog or bitch could occur.

Would you recommend having the bitch spayed then?

Its one of those things that only you can decide. I am not necessarily in favour of spaying as you do tend to get a coat change, and some bitch's do have a tendency to gain weight.  But yet again that will depend on whether you are going to keep the bitch in full TT coat or have her clipped out regularly and whether you are the sort of owner who will keep an eye on her weight.

Personally I would wait and see, you will have to let her have her first season anyway, and use that as your guide as to how your dog reacts to her at that time.

I was lucky. I have a castrated male and he never bothered when my bitch came into season. He knew there was something going on, but could quite work out what.

It was my other bitch that kept mounting her, and at every given opportunity!!

After my mother had her weimaraner spayed after her second litter, she pilled on the weight. The vets did warn her of this problem but they didnt realise just how much weight she would put on. Obviously it varies from dog to dog, and breed. Even specialised diet food did not shift the weight. To be honest try to avoid getting her spayed. Maybe just find a way to seperate them if he is bothering her while in season, that maybe the best option. Good luck with your new dog! :)

Dogs only put on weight if they are fed excess calories based on their needs.  Many speyed dogs actually need less food, and the owners should adjust their dogs diet accordingly and maybe increase exercise - there really is NO excuse for a neutered dog to gain excessive weight.

Not entirely true, digger. I have one bitch (out of 4 spayed bitches I've had) who has also piled on weight post-spaying. But not all over - parts of her are positively bony and need filling out, but over her ribs she has turned into a podgy barrel. :( She is on half the quantity of food she used to have, no treats, has what little food she has bulked out with low-calorie filler-uppers and has much exercise as we can throw at her, but after 4 years of sustained effort there is no way it's going to shift. Feeding her even less isn't an option because as we all know, if you're hungry you pick, and she starts scavenging. The vet was horrified at how little she's getting, and says it shows on her skinny areas. :( Apparently it's like the hormonal body changes that happen to post-menopausal women - that's when the weight piles on too, even if they are active.

She is the only one who this has happened to, so it's certainly something that can happen post-spaying, no matter how careful the owner is.

I've had spayed GSDs, Yorkie, a mixed breed and Cairns.  And a neutered Cairn.  None of them ever put on weight or had a change of coat following spaying or neutering. 

Weight gain is not a given.  Many times the weight gain that's attributed to neutering/spaying has to do with the dog's age - they are generally neutered/spayed about the age when they are close to or fully mature and need less food.  And for many breeds once puppyhood is over they need motivation to exercise too, which if the owner does not make it happen will also result in a pudgy pooch.

Stacey

Good point - has the vet done blood work for Thyroid?

Huskymad,

It's very easy to control a dog's weight - all you do is feed them less and if you are up to it, exercise them more.  Works every time.

Stacey

Sorry going to disagree with some of you here.

I have two litter sisters 12 years old.

One was spayed three years ago one was not, they have the same amount of exercise, same food, same everything.

The spayed bitch will pile on the weight and is on far less food than the unspayed one, who looks younger because she still retains the figure she has always had. It is something that can be controlled but I have to be very vigilant.

As to coat change it can vary according to the breed, but in my experience, gained through working with my daughter who is a groomer, is that the coated breeds suffer more from coat changes.

The hormones changes stops the normal drop of coat, and the undercoat thickens.  Usually resulting in a woolly appearance to the coat.

But as I said in a previous post I think the decision is a personal one, and all the pros and cons need to be added up before making the decision.

Thanks for all your replies, our 1st dog a bitch was not spayed, we live in quite a rural area so she did'nt come into contact with many other dogs, thankfully she did'nt have any health problems arising from not being spayed.
I felt very pressurised when we got our dog to get him spayed by the vet, I now wish we would have left him til he was older to make a decision(he was castrated at 6mths).
The advice given has been very helpful, no matter how many books I have read on dogs, its always nice to hear other peoples views/opinions.

I dont understand anyones reason to WANT to keep an unspayed/unneutered dog,if they are not going to be bred from then what is the point of keeping them entire? One of my girls was underweight before being spayed and 2 years later she has not gained a pound! I went through one season with her,i got her aged 2 and that put me off for life,she continuously whined at the front door,even tho she had tonns of excercise,she ran away from me at every opportunity looking for a male,which she had never done before or since,then there's the blood,the frustration on owner and especially dog and then after all of that came the phantom pregnancy :( We both were nervous wrecks by the end of it! Not to mention all the health problems that "may" come to a whole female,i didnt want to take the risk.
I had my other females spayed at 6mths.they are not overweight and i never noticed any coat changes,same with the males,much more calmer,non agressive with other entire males,the vast majority of entire dogs i meet are usually aggressive with other entire males.
i honestly didnt have the heart to put them thru season upon season without being mated,from my observations it is not a good time for them or owner. I got my dogs spayed and neutered for their benefit,not mine,weight gain,coat change didnt even cross my mind,these little things are much easier to handle than a whole dog.

It's a matter of individual choice, rose. I personally don't find entire bitches difficult to deal with, and after 30 years with them have never had an unplanned pregnancy. My two current bitches are now both spayed, but only because I have two entire males (neither of whom I intend to castrate, and neither of whom fight or go off 'bitching'). I have noticed definite changes (for the worse) in the bitches since spaying. :(

Jean can you let me know what the negatives you have noticed are?

I've never known any different with my pets,they have all been done at 6mths. except for the 2 year old.

I'm not saying ALL entire dogs are problematic,but the majority i have met are :(

At 6 months you are talking puppies who are changing all the time and haven't reached full adulthood, and their adult appearnce and behaviour haven't happe4ned yet, so how would you notice a difference.

Those of us who have had adults neutered definately notice a diference, and also I have noted from the dogs I have bred and know well that early neutering (before full maturity) also alters or should I say stunts, them menatally).  Some of these ingantile characteristics that many dogs/bitches retain may be appealing to some owners, but others of us like our dogs to go, through all the natural stages.

Any woman that has gone through a hysterectomy prior to menopause wukk find a diference in ehr metabolism health and general well being, especially emotional and usually not for the better.

I have had none of mine spayed younger than 5 years old, and even the once practically anorexic one had become a terrible scavenger/food thief as I have to watch their food intake carefully to keep them trim.

My oldest has also fat and thin areas making it a difficult balnacing act betwwen keeping her weight OK, as she has holster hips and love handles, and a skinny rear and spine if I try to get it off.

Many spayed bitches are prone to urinary incontinence, especialy large breeds.  This is no minor thing as I am finding looking after a freinds Terrier type bitch who is piddling everywhere so has to be confined to the rooms with washable floors.  I'm sick to death of washing all the dog bedding as she sleeps in all the dog beds and makes them wet and smeelly.

Brainless,

If your experience was typical no one would voluntarily have a dog neutered or a bitch spayed.  Fortunately, it is not typical of the hundreds of thousands of dogs who are spayed and neutered every year. 

"Many" bitches are not prone to urinary incontinence after spaying, a very small minority are and every source I have ever read except one states that incontinence is less likely to happen than pyometra or mammary cancer in unspayed bitches.  (Rates of mammary cancer significantly reduced by early spaying.)  It is true that large breeds are more prone to incontinence than small breeds. Neutering also reduces the rate of testicular cancer in dogs.

I am not advocating spaying or neutering.  And I would never suggest anyone spay or neuter as a preventative measure for anything other than unwanted pregnancy or fatherhood, regardless of the statistics.  However, the presumption that spaying and neutering leads to mentally juvenile, incontinent, fat animals is nonsense.  It is has not been my experience, nor has it been the experience of anyone I know who have been into dogs and breeding for decades.   With regard to poor coats, that must be breed specific.  In Cairns there is no change, in GSDs there is usually an improvement in that the bitch no longer blows her coat before going into season. 

All that said, my sister is in the States and her vet suggested that her puppy should be neutered at 4 months of age.  I was horrified and told her at least to wait until bone growth stops.   Why vets, especially in the U.S., have adopted "a sooner the better" approach is beyond me.

Stacey

Stacey many of the owners that have always neutered have never owned an entire animal so have no point of reference.  Breeders and exhibitors who in the main keep their dogs and bitches intact until at least middle age are able to see the differences, which as you say may be breed specific.

A fairly recent study showed that Rotties and Boxers were very prone to Urinary incontinence in more than half the bitches spayed.

I am not alone in noticing the lack of mental maturity in dogs aned bitches neutered prior to puberty.  Many people at training classes who have had dogs more years than I am alive have noticed that the rescues they have taken on in recent years done young have been like this whereas their entire pets and those neutered later have grown up in themsleves fine.

I regularly see a lot of the pups I have bred and this infantile mental make up is only evident in thsoe neutered under a year of age.  A male who often stays with me was doen at 3 years old and still re3tains his male characteristics.

Totally in agreement Brainless ;)  When neutered early on the whole balance of how the juvenile body and mind is developing is thrown into turmoil - hormones play a much more significant role in overall development than merely sexual drive.

If only more vets were less interested in turning a fast buck and more interested in researching the pros and cons and providing their clients with all the facts both for and against spaying and catsration I think the Behaviourists out there would be seeing a whole lot less juvenile delinquents ;)

On the other hand perhaps it's a ploy the less scrupulous thought up together :D

Teri

Hi Brainless,

I have never noticed differences in spayed and unspayed bitches in mental maturity within the same breed in dogs' I've owned.  Nor have breeders that I've known of those two breeds, since most kept close track of the puppies they sold.  I only have two breeds to reference (Cairns and GSDs), so maybe it does make a difference, it seems to with coats.

Stacey

Certainly seems to be quite noticeable among my breed, and also the Goldne retriever and Spaniels of my aquaintance, especially where the owners and breeders ahd both entire and neutered to compare with of similar breeding.

My breed are mentally pretty slow to mature, being fairly adult noit before 2 years old, and definately seem to so a lot more maturing up to 4 uears of age.  After that they seem to stop chamging in this respect.

Our male has only just really matured over the last 6 months, and he has just had his third Birthday, but did have 6 months missing from his life due to Quarantine.

Okay...sorry I know this is an old thread but as the topic has come up on a new thread I had a look back.

Can  ask more specifically about the lack of maturity...? In what way is this noticable.? I was thinking of my previous dog and he went on to cock his leg and mark and seemed to mature... ? He was leggy but seemed to me to be mature.  But it depends on what being mature is. I can think of labs who are older and neuterd and very NOT mature!!!!As in they are 9 and still very silly. Is that what you are meaning or something else? Thanks.

Yes the silliness you expect them to grow out of.

At first I thought it was just individual differences in character, but every silly immature adult I have met has turned out to be neutered pre puberty/under a year.

oh wow! hat a nighrmare my life would be if I neutered my boy! He is soooo silly!  As it is I think he will take a long long time to grow up!

Well, one of them has intermittent urinary incontinence (because I was stupid enough to allow her on the furniture the chairs have to be covered in plastic with throws over the top). She is also the one whose fat ratio (not weight) has ballooned. The other one, who was spayed at 6 years of age has become more aggressive with other dogs, which she never was before. If we hadn't kept the two dog puppies (we would rather have had another bitch) we would never have had them spayed.

I have to agree with Brainless - it's my experience that bitches spayed before their 1st season do not mature mentally or physically when compared to their entire litter mates.  I've not had any problems spaying at 6-7yrs except I have had to cut down on their food.

There are medications for incontinence, conventional and natural,thankfully i've never had the problem in all of my years of dog owning,touch wood :) I can only imagine it would be a terrible thing to live with for both dog and owner,there are pro's and cons to spay or not spay,but i've only seen the pro's,some folk get only the cons,or what they think are cons ;) Arent most small breeds considered mature at 6mths. anyway? My whole point of view might change if i owned a large breed that took 2 years to mature,i've only ever owned small dogs under 10kg.

My dog is a giant breed and she was speyed at 14months on the advice of my vet.
She is now 4yrs old and has intermittent incontinence, as has her sister who was speyed at 3yrs old, but is not overweight. In fact it is difficult to keep weight on her. The lack of weight is a benefit to another health issue.
I have had other bitches speyed, both young and older, and never had this problem. Small and medium breeds. Pedigree and mongrel.
I have 3 neutered boys, both giant and small breeds, they have all become aggressive with other male dogs. Sometimes with each other. They were all well socialised/trained and handled as pups. The bitch and the giant breed boy were rescued as young pups from very bad environments.

Hi Ragga,

Your personal experiences only go to highlight that not all dogs or bitches enjoy the benefits (which I have to say I do question)  or suffer the adverse affects of neutering.  

My own feeling is that neutering should be carried out for genuine medical reasons alone -  with occasional exceptions based on the merits of individual cases providing the animal in question is physically and mentally mature for its breed (more difficult to assess with a mongrel of course!).

However it's good to read open debate on this subject though as we can all learn regardless of our time in dogs and newcomers to dogs who read the various responses at least get an insight into the bigger picture of the whole issue which should help them make more informed choices if and when the need arises  ;)

Teri

I have 4 bitches 2 of which I have had to have spayed for health reasons. The difference in weight and coat between the spayed and unspayed bitches is phenomenal despite a drastic cut back in food both have ballooned in weight - (they have two long walks off the lead everyday as well) and their coat is almost unmanageable - in fact I have even had to resort to cutting some of it off - in my breed you can instantly spot a spayed bitch because of these changes and I would never get a bitch spayed through choice !

My bitch is 15 months old - I took a long time to select my vet and spoke to many, each telling me that I should have my bitch spayed asap!  Vets tell me that most bitches (if left entire) could well develop mammary tumours or pyo and they see this often (of course they do, they are vets they usually see sick animals!)  Anyway, I used to be a student at a vets surgery - spaying is a massive business as well as a massive operation.  My dog is like my child :D I love her sooo much and I would be so worried if she was put under GA for major surgery - not to mention the recovery period.  She recently had her first season and was absolutely brilliant, no behavioural change, hardly any blood (kept herself very clean) and she enjoyed the late night lead walks too!  My vet is not happy that I have not booked in for spaying, she say's that if I dont do it between her first and second season then there isn't much point.  My breed's coat would almost certainly be affected by spaying (although I realise this is cosmetic) Truth is I dont want to put her through massive surgery for what the vet calls 'routine' - unless of course it is for medical reasons.  I shall just see how things go in the future....
Sarah

I should have said that i have only owned smallbreeds from puppy hood,i also have 2  large breed rescues that came to me spayed and neutered.I am thinking about adding another addition to our household soon(it's only me and my dogs) and i shall take your lead and either wait for the first season,if female,or if male wait till he's matured,might even breed them because everyone says it's important for a female to have at least one litter to love..........only joshing ;)
I have seen toooo many pups in rescue when the owners have used that exact excuse and cant home the puppies,very,very heartbreaking and frustrating.I read somewhere that in America 30 million dogs are put down each year just for behavioural problems and unwanted litters,does anyone know the stats here in Britain?

I think it is those figures that really drives the neuter everything argument in the USA.  It seems that a alot more people keep dogs without secure gardens and a lot more scope for accidental litters.

The sad fact I think is that those who take the trouble to have their dogs neutered as urged by the Welfare Agencies and Vets for population control reasons are the responsible ones who would not be letting their dogs and bitches go wandering off adding to the unwanted dog population.  It is likely those who just let their bitches get in whelp and allow their dogs to be latchkey dogs are not going to stump up the not inconsiderable charge3 for neutering.

Yes I know an oversimplification.

Brainless,

Not an oversimplification, it's the truth.  The thing is that the pro-neutering messages is only effective on those people who are responsible and would not let their dogs or bitches roam.  The people responsible for the thousands of unwanted litter each year are not getting the message that if they do not neuter or spay they will end up with unwanted puppies.  Of course, these people are also did not give a hoot their dogs are roaming the neighborhood and might be stolen, hit by a car, fight with other dogs, etc, etc. Every shelter in every city has free or low cost spay/neuter available, so it is not a question of affordability. 

Stacey