Gilly, thank you for that. It's very good to hear another voice considering the practicalities and realities of coping after the ban. There are indeed those who think the countryside is a park, not a place of work actually owned by other people, and that farmers do not need to sleep.

To "open" this thread up again, can the next person who replies to this topic answer the original post. The thread will then widen again

Well said Trevor!!! :)

Lindsay
X

Edited to add: I was repluing to Trevor's post about 12 up!

NO, the countryside is best understood by the people who live there full time. Not well-meaning do-gooders

Liberty,

I know you're not alone in feeling enraged on this topic - many of us are from both anti and pro viewpoints so I'm not picking on you alone ;) but  this thread and others similar to it have not been about the countryside per se - but a combination of animal welfare, what is perceived as necessary culling versus blood sport and and possible class division.  Blanket statements such as yours are only fanning flames on a fire that was beginning to look as though it was calming down a little - with several of the earlier nastier remarks being either cooled down or their respective posters agreeing to differ.

Civilised debate without name-calling and a little respect of others opinions - regardless of stance - gives a wider audience the opportunity to evaluate the different circumstances, experiences and suggestions from all sides of the debate.

Please try and keep things in perspective and don't castigate everyone who holds views that you have a personal issue with.

Regards, Teri

ps. I've gotten over emotional myself before now so I TRY an re-read things before pressing send but I don't always remember :D

Teri   

Teri, If you see  my posts as fanning the flames/blanket statements etc,  that is your opiniion and I make no apologies for my post .

Please don't patronize me either

Yes I do see your post as turning things round yet again to being nasty - I was trying to put things politely and if you regard that as patronising, you have misunderstood my intention.

I did not ask or expect you to apologise for your post, merely hoped that you may realise that embittered personal comments are counter productive - on any topic, not just this one.  You are however entitled to your opinion and of course equally entitled to express it as you wish.  So - fire away, by all means.

Teri this is page 4 0f 9, try page 9 if you wish to cool the debate. As for embittered, not me.

>NO, the countryside is best understood by the people who live there full time. Not well-meaning do-gooders<

Liberty, the above post of yours is the one to which I was replying and appeared as the last post on this topic just after 9pm before my response  at just after 11 pm - although it no longer appears on the last page of the thread ( of which only 3 pages, not 9 pages,  in total show on my screen).

Hence my reason for replying as I did - I had already read with some dismay the over heated remarks from others and this is why I pointed to yours as fanning the flames of an argument which appeared to be dying down.

Teri

Excuse me Liberty I have worked in the country for over 35 years & lived in it  for even longer so do not patronize me by saying only those that live in the countryside know about it I DO know what it is like & have lots of friends who try & do make the countryside a better place without leaping onto their horses & chasing foxes with packs of hounds & some of my friends are landowners & wealthy people born & bred for generations in the country & they do NOT support hunting for sport like the Countryside Alliance would have people believe. They employ  land wardens & forresters & river wardens & farmers to keep the countryside for people to enjoy & the wildlfe to live on

It is now only the "townies"that like to enjoy the countryside but real people living real lives with nature & not against it.

Page 4 of 9 - I can only see page 3 - where's the rest ?

My monitor says this is page 3 of 6!
:)

Nope - only got 3 pages!  Perhaps some of us are only getting the censored version :D 

I feel that the Tories need another woman leader - Margaret Thatcher may not have always been right but she stuck to her beliefs and controlled the dipstick type MP's very well for a long time.  After all, women are generally much better organisers/housekeepers than men and what is ruling this country other than a much larger version

<now ducking for cover :D>

I agree. Someone who can shoot down Tony Blair in flames would be ideal. Someone with charisma, strength, leadership and focus.

Are you volunteering, Chloe? ;) :)

Doesn't pay enough LOLOLOL :D

And she's not ugly enough....

Geoff :)

I agree there with you Christine but who ?

It is also the case in a lot of companies where women make much better bosses than alot of men :) I have had far better women bosses than I have ever had male bosses. The majority of the male bosses I have ever had were spineless and couldn't make a descision even if it was staring them in the face :) I have had a couple of good males bosses but I found they were very much driven by me in what they did :)

Maggie was a legend and I doubt another Maggie will come through in the near future.

Lucy
xx

Lady D

Still haven't had your info on the faked photos & videoes on the LACS site & about the cruelty to the fox Just had the local wildlife Police officer here & as he was involved in some of the undercover stuff he is also interested about the identity of his colleagues who have supplied the faked stuff as he was alarmed that anyone needed to fake evidence

The local largest landowner has just welcomed hom the badger baiting & dog fighting employees that were released from prison yesterday, he's throwing them a party & they will back in their jobs & off hunting with the hunt(they also work PT for the hunt)this weekend. Not in our village & parish of course as there is a court order banning them.

The Wildlife officer came round to add me to the badger watch rota as he thinks they will be out digging the badgers for more fighting in the next few days. He's a really nice chap whose father & G father were local hunt masters for many years so he knows a lot about hunting & the way the local hunt arranged for urban foxes were released for the hunt to kill under the guise of them being released back into the wild

I would also like to say thank to Gilly ....someone who actually works the countryside rather than just goes and plays in it :)

This is a post for Teri:

Gilly, everyone regardless of whether rural or city dweller has a right to say what they feel about animal welfare issues - it's not about the land - although as UK citizens and tax payers we are each entitled to an opinion on that too

OK - so why are you not looking at intensive factory farming? Battery Hens? Live export? Why are you putting so much emphasis on fox hunting whilst seemingly ignoring the REAL cruelty out there?

I would also like to agree with Gilly. We have people who think that a Public Right of Way means they can sit down and have a picnic and leave litter for the horses to pick up. We have people, with dogs running free strolling across the field, not picking up after their dogs. We have to restrict our electric fencing so it doesn't interfere with them. We have to make sure its all sign posted incase we get sued (the warden told me that there are folk going round deliberately doing this!).

Yes, rural or city dweller has an input into anilmal welfare - but how on earth can the city dweller truly see it from the rural perspective when they don't even go into the country to see what actually happens? I'm not sure what relevance the tax payer argument has? I am also a tax payer but my opinion isn't asked about how cities are run?! Nor about how rural land is either - its just taken from my salary to support the govt!

well they cant can they!!!! quite clearley HENCE the ban!

People used to be educated about how to enjoy the countryside (eg shut the gates) but that now doesn't happen. Peeps in inner cities who rarely go to the countryside I agree may have no idea what happens (but then they may not have an opinion on hunting/the countryside anyway as peeps tend to get involved only with things that affect them emotionally or physically).

I may not live in the countryside (and that's not through choice - it's because New Forest etc is too damned expensive! :D ). But i remember all i was taught, and for most purposes spend almost all my time in the country as opposed to the town. I live near to Bournemouth but go there about 4 times a year! I would far rather don a wax jacket and get out in the mud and rain in the country. I rode for 20 years in the country and loathe litter...and so on. I would never abuse the so called rights of way and take great care and alwysa pickup. So it's not all of us peeps in the towns who misunderstand or can't understand...

I also totally understand the thrill of watching hounds work and riding across country, but just happen to not agree with the outcome.

Lindsay

why should you say how others choose to live their lifes though?

its not like the pros strap the antis on to horses & make them go is it?? have the same standards.
i havent been in years,but ive only got to think of who my area is going to be affected by this ban,jobs homes finances. even people who run the village shop,who is going to shop there if the domino effect of loss of jobs through the ban starts????
in our villiages ,all the industries are somehow invloved with hunting,even the pubs,garages etc??????

god help us,,,,,,,cos TB dosent give a toss!

M, I don't give a fluing monkeys as to what others do - but my take on life generally is that, peeps can do what they want as long as they don't harm anyone or anything else.

Once others start to be harmed, animal or human, then they can expect others to disagree very strongly :D

Lindsay
X

well people will be harmed wont they,when they have their homes & jobs taken away???? how many farmers killed themselves in TB other fiasco (F&M )????

have you ever been to a country fair? they are run by the hunt you know?
ever been to a local horse/dog show?? around here 90% of these are run by the hunts

Many who are bothered by cruelty to animals (which opinion they are entitled to ) DO get involved with other welfare issues. I know i have.

Fox hunters lost my support pretty much after their nasty bullying tactics on wildlife photographer Eric Ashby, as well as for other reasons.

Pro hunt supporters left dead animals in his garden after he had "dared" to make a stand to try to protect his own livelihood. They also erected a fence to stop wildlife visiting his garden and his home was nicknamed "Stalag Ashby by the locals. But i daresay HIS liberty and livelihood didn't count :rolleyes:

Lindsay

There are two sides to every coin, what about the animal rights protesters who dug up that womans grave :(  Surely you can not base your beliefs on the actions of just a few individuals, you have to look at everything - gain the knowledge and maybe even experience it .......  and then make up your own mind.

Blondebird, i live locally to the Forest and was a great admirer of Eric Ashby. He filmed The Private LIfe of the Fox for the BBC. I followed all the events over the years. I was horrified at the systematic bullying of this gentle man by the hunt. As for the woman's grave, of course i am disgusted along with evryone else.

The difference is that most peeps all agree that was not decent by any stretch of the imagination, but no pro hunt peeps on here have ever said how they abhor the treatment meted out by the hunt to Ashby.

And yes, i have looked at everything over many years, from dead hounds on railways lines, to dead pets, to videos of huntsman trying to drown a stag at bay, (which they did not deny) to conservation issues to badger baiting by terrier men associated with hunts. I was also not thrilled to see a Wiltshire hunt having fun over the nearby field, and a bloody hound in the middle of the road with traffic all around it causing not only chaos but danger to itself and drivers. Yes they are all under control ... !

Not one hunt person came to check on the animal or knew of the chaos, and the hound was shooed throught the fence back to them so they will never know and can remain blissfully ignorant. I  used to be pro hunt and have been to meets and so on. It was not easy for me to change my mind and also, i still have friends who hunt and we are still friends although they know my feelings on the subject.

Lindsay

Hi Chloe,

Regardless of stance I don't see why it is helpful to keep twisting an argument for or against the hunting ban into some other issue on every thread relating to it.  I'm not going to wax lyrical about other aspects of inappropriate animal husbandry under this topic because:-

a) this post is supposedly about class divisions and fox hunting by hounds, ergo b) I'm not >ignoring the REAL cruelty out there<  because fox hunting with hounds IS real cruelty  ;)

Re another posters point about farmland being enjoyed for dog walks, the majority of the land where my dogs are exercised is Local Authority maintained - not done by farmers.  The very local farmland ie. within a few hundred yards, is occupied by cattle and further on by horses (Riding for the Disabled Centre) and so their fields are not used to exercise anyone's dogs.   The bridle paths and some of the narrower bushy lanes are used by dog walkers but again these are LA maintained as they are part of the renowned ramblers "West Highland Way".

Teri 

Teri - I am not twisting the argument - you used "animal welfare issues" so I was responding to that :)

hi again
l have never agreed with battery farming or veal farming and no im not a veggie .. lol i have teeth!!!! our animals are reared for market yes but i would like to say that they have a quality of life before they go..my hens roamed the farm my kids used to hunt the eggs a great game to them our calfs stay with their Mums, my horse is 23 and roams and surveys all his kingdom..occasionelly opening gates for the cows his pals to enter forbiddon fields....not all farmers are intensive money grabbers and it is cruel to catorgarise (cant spell either) us all....but i stilll say WE manages and keep the countryside in the state it has been for years WE are the custonians of that,, and i dont agree either with the right to ROAM, and getting back to Fox hunting  i got a bee in me bonnet now) still think it was kinder than a lame butt with a gun who nearly always misses and you have injured animals crawling round, who cleans them up????ooh i might ask my neighbour the councillor to kill it for me...l dont think sooo they dont want to know whats going on

Good idea! Lets get all the anti's to kill the foxes for the farmers :D :D I bet they would bring back hunting pronto then :p If they had to shoot them or clean out the traps etc I don't think they would object for too long. Mind you, I think some anti's think that foxes should just be left to get on with it and that they are not a pest :(

I think thats exactly what the anti hunt folk want.

i want to see what everybody has to say in 2 years time,when the effects of the ban are really starting to show

Gilly you're one of the better farmers with welfare  more in mind ;) and i don't agree with the right to roam either, it's unfair and stupid!

Lindsay
X

Frightfully funny Melody :rolleyes:

Lindsay

Pleased you approve Lindsay, you have made my day :) It IS , however, going to be necessary to keep the fox population down. I would suggest that the antis DO have to deal with them, maybe then the realities of life might just strike them?

cant we just herd them up & dump them outside 10 downing street?

The foxes or the anti's ?

;)

either!!!! both!!!!

I beg to differ, why not herd up all the pro hunt peeps instead? If they lived in the town all their problems would be over. No? Oh, shame...thought that was a good idea. It would solve SO many problems for both sides ;)

Lindsay

Where would all the townies go then Lindsay?? :D :D

yeah well they are all together,in the countryside,!!!!!!!!!!

lets just flatten the countryside all together shall we?
concrete it over.
cos someones got to run it & it sure as hell isnt TB

I thought this thread was about it being class not foxes ??

In Wales Foxes are not hunted with hounds as a norm, they are controlled by the use of a man a gun & a terrier for flusking out the fox when the shoot or farmers have a fox problem-this is out of the mouth of a pro hunting terrier man not me!

Our local hunt is all about class, they call their employees "servants", they do not allow JP to join the supporters as they have a membership fee that you cannot pay unless you have a lot of money. A very rich guy bought a local estate & was bombarded by invitations by the Hunting fraternity who offered him days at the Races(Ascot etc) to try to get him to join They were shocked to find out he is a "Greenie"(their term not his)he is in the process of converting the farmland to Organic(another two years before he gets the Soil Ass Cert)& the woodland to a wildlife haven with no shooting/hunting etc allowed. Now they slag him off at every opportunity even tho' he has created around 30 jobs for local people & modernized all the tied cottages & put them on a far better contract for his employees when they retire. No he's a johnny come lately greenie instead of a valued member of the local upper class set(their words in a letter to him not mine)

So glad i have made your day Melodysk :D

I don't think anyone can know exactly what would happen and opinions (if i can have one - after all, i only play in the countryside and live in a town ;) ) will vary greatly even amongst anti hunt peeps i would expect. From a practical position, farmers etc will want to kill foxes so that will happen.

Generally speaking nature knows best and  sorts out populations etc but would need more than a few years for the balance to be right, and if there is plentiful food and habitat, foxes will breed and farmers will want rid regardless. I know that is true.

If i was a farmer, i would shoot, not poison. And i would ensure my animal husbandry was excellent to minimise the need. The idea of stock dogs is not a bad one :D but as has been said, the dogs must be brought up in the flock.
As i have said before, to me hunting is the lesser of 2 wrongs and just because it seems less cruel does not make it right. But we could go round and round and round on all these arguments for ever.... it's getting boring isn't it?

Lindsay

Well considering you find it boring Linsay, you keep on posting about it ;) I find it interesting hearing what the other side says, whether I agree with it or not. So many people seem to think that shotting a fox and getting a clean kill is a simple thing, maybe they should go out with some shooters and find out? As far as I am aware (AICBW) it is very difficult getting a clean shot on a fox and many shot foxes are left with a slow and painful death .....I jsut fail to see where that is the lesser of two evils. Not saying you are wrong you understand, just saying that I can't see it myself

:)