i have been searching on the net for what seems like an eternity for a breeder that breeds gsd's of the larger size, i am aware of the breed standard of male gsd ranging anything from 30kg to 40kg and to be honest i would rather have something at the heavier end of the scale. if one looks at the breeders websites you will see the gsd they offer grow into slim small looking dogs which are perfect apart from size in my opinion.
The breeders and judges tend to like them small and promote this with trophies ! The breed is being shaped by these judges/breeders because they both do the same thing and use each others studs and bitches thus shaping the dogs they prefer (within the breed standard of course) .
now i am willing to pay top money for a pup that will grow into a BIG healthy dog,i have no objections to having a long haired gsd even though i know that long haired are rejected as the breed standard and i am not confusing long hair with flesh and bone substance.
If any one knows of a web site link or a phone number that i can contact to buy a puppy or register my interest i would be grateful.
please do not try to influence me by telling me about stomach torsion or barrel chests restricting elbow movement or any other argument about breaking away from the breed standard  as i have made my mind up in this matter.
thank you.  L.J

Are you looking for the English bred dogs rather than from the Germanic? Click on my name and then you can contact me privately if you wish.

engaged tone on your phone so i will try again later.
bluecadburys@hotmail.com
thanks

The breed standard in Uk for size makes no mention of weight, only height "Size
Ideal height (from withers and just touching elbows): dogs: 63 cms (25 ins); bitches: 58 cms (23 ins). 2.5 cms (1 in) either above or below ideal permissible."

It is interesting that the correct height to lenght ratio i 9 to 10 as I would think many Shepherds would be longer than just under 28 inches for males, and 25inches for bitches) from fore forechest to Rear edge of Pelvis

Under general appearance the standard says: "General Appearance
Slightly long in comparison to height; of powerful, well muscled build with weather-resistant coat. Relation between height, length, position and structure of fore and hindquarters (angulation) producing far-reaching, enduring gait. Clear definition of masculinity and femininity essential, and working ability never sacrificed for mere beauty."

I would think that a heavily built dog would not meet the requirements for a well muscled athletic dog required for work, neither should it look as if the wind would carry it away.  The body structure should look dry and hard, not flesh bound though.

Has anyone seen the picture that is used to Illustrate the breed on the KC Website.  Now I would call that fairly old fashioned, and nothing like some of the roachy jobs many non GSD owning admirers of the breed find unattractive.

I quite agree, Brainless. The GSD on the Breed Standard looks as though it could do an honest day's work.
:)

Hi Lj I have the larger german shepherds if you click onto my profile you can contact me on my email hope to here from you soon Indy.

your email nor your website is not shown in your profile, perhaps you could email me your details.
bluecadburys@hotmail.com
thank you.

Hi Lj have sent you an email but if you didnt receive it contact me at Lyntique@btopenworld.com thnkz Indy

i too am looking for a gsd at the larger end of the size scale, i want my gsd to be healthy,mentaly sound,not nervouse like some show gsd i have seen,nor do i want him highly strung like some working dogs might be,i do want him to look powerful, i dont particully want him to have a straight back but quite like the gentle slope but i want him proportionaly built with substance,i do not want a geneticly skinny nor fat,timid.he does not have to be within the breed standard, the ideal body i would want for my dog would be one that was had the body from a german style gsd but a more pumped up version
am i asking the impossable?  

Lemonjelly,

Judges judge against the breed standard.  Breeders that show their dogs aim to breed them to the standard.  Pet buyers often want them bigger, with longer hair, different colours, different proportions, different temperament than the standard for the breed.   That's why there are breeders who breed for coat colour, size, fluffiness and you name it.  If you want a GSD that diverts significantly from the breed standard than do not go to a breeder that shows their dogs.

I am sure you can find someone that will take your "top money" from you for a puppy with the promise that it will be exactly to your requirements.  At least make sure that before you part with your cash that the dam and sire were hip scored and you are shown proof.

  My advice is if you are only going to be happy with a BIG dog with a specific body type than buy an adult, not a puppy. 

Stacey

stacey

you said  "I am sure you can find someone that will take your top money from you for a puppy with the promise that it will be exactly to your requirements. " unquote
if you know such a breeder of the bigger style gsd then please disclose the infomation as i too want a "BIG" gsd, i am hoping your remark is genuine and not mickey take as in any dodgy breeder will take your money if you wanna give it away. simply put ( we are talking just about the dogs body at the moment) take a show gsd beef him up to the max proportionatley that is just within or with out the breed standard and thats the dog for me  ! come on breeders disclose yourself .

there are some lovely GSDs in obedience "foxfold" heavy boned,long coated,attitude to die for. nothing like the nervy show type

been searching for foxfold kennels, maybe it has a different link name does it?
thanks

Try this thread.

Hi
I have a 2 year old Foxfold German Shepherd bitch. She is really beautiful, with a wonderful temperament, she weighs in at 39 kg, not all that tall but has a very long body with long bushy tail.
My two friends each have one of her litter brothers and they are big and chunky. Tony Fox the breeder does not have a website (he does not need to advertise, word gets round about his dogs) but he lives in Rochdale. If you e-mail me, Woodheadsuey@aol.com I can send you his phone no. and a picture of Sasha.
Everyone admires her.  Sue

<<<She is really beautiful, with a wonderful temperament, she weighs in at 39 kg, not all that tall but has a very long body with long bushy tail>>>>
But the correct proportions for a GSD are 10:9 so not tall and very long is totally incorrect. These dogs were bred to work and should still be capable of doing so! As GSD's become longer and heavier it makes them incapable of doing a good days work.A GSD should be able to gait for long periods of time and work all day...something which too many 'pet' breeders forget
Archer

I give up replying to messages on this board as there's always someone who wants to argue. My bitch measures 24 inches in height from withers to elbows, and according to the book I have, that is the correct height with 25 inches being the correct height for a dog. It also states that the German Shepherd should be slightly longer than he is tall. She is certainly bigger than most bitches i've seen. Tony Fox breeds German Shepherds as working dogs and prefers to sell the pups to people who wish to work them. He certainly would not like to be referred to as a PET breeder

Then you should word your replies more carefully...by your own words you said she is not tall and very long...
Archer

I was replying to Blueboy who said he was looking for Foxfold Kennels,as I know where they are I was just trying to be helpful. I didn't realise you had to be soooooo word perfect to write a message on here, anyway earlier on in this topic Brainless states that the ratio is 9:10 for a German Shepherd for height and length ?????? It does not really matter to me, she has a wonderful temperament, is very loving and kind, not a bit nervous and she also has brains and beauty.  As I say I was just trying to do a quick reply to Blueboy's question, he obviously has seen or heard about a Foxfold so he knows what he's after.  Thanks all the same Archer for your kind words of advice, in future I will word my replies more carefully.

hello SashaKameo

i am grateful for your advice and yes i will contact foxfold, hopefully he might have some photos he could email to me.

and as regard the other poster who said gsd's are working dogs i was wondering if you could clarify your definition on working? does this mean a normal average family who does not use his dog for crowd control, herding sheep,security etc should not buy a gsd?

gsd's are what real dogs should look like *wink*  

I am the poster who said Gsd's are working dogs...and they are.They were bred to do a job and should still be capable of doing that job.Its the same with too many breeds...we take a dog that was 'designed' to do a job...and turn them into attractive 'shadows' of what the breed was supposed to look like. A GSD should be athletic and powerful and should be able to gait for long distances....some of the short legged heavy dogs that are around couldn't do a days work in their lives.
I have owned GSD...a germanic dog from show lines.He was not excessive in any way but could and would have 'worked' all day.There is nothing as beautiful as a good GSD...and nothing as sad as a poor one IMO
As for your comment as to a family owning a GSD....why don't you grow up.I own Elkhounds and I expect them to be able to do a days hunting for elk....doesn't mean they are ever going to have to but they must have the physical ability to do so if required....because thats the way they are supposed to be.
A lab should be capable of working to a gun,a terrier of going to ground etc...is that really so hard to understand
Archer

"As for your comment as to a family owning a GSD....why don't you grow up.I own Elkhounds and I expect them to be able to do a days hunting for elk....doesn't mean they are ever going to have to but they must have the physical ability to do so if required....because thats the way they are supposed to be."

LOL well im pleased for you that you expect them to be able to do a days hunting for elk !! (get real) i certainly would not expect my gsd to herd sheep.anyhow its more of a case of supply and demand and as a customer with the cash waiting im afraid my money talks.i will buy a big boned,healthy gsd if you like it or not without herding refrences. 

The point is not whether a GSD is going to herd sheep - the point is that it should be capable of doing so if required. Likewise an elkhound should be capable of hunting elk, and a dalmatian should be capable of trotting with a carriage for 15 miles, and a labrador should be capable of spending a day retrieving on a shoot. If they aren't constructed correctly to do the job the breed was designed for, then they're not good examples of the breed.
:)

Thankyou JG...you obviously understand where I am coming from.
Blueboy YES I expect my elkhounds to be capable of doing a days hunting...and they are.My 3 year old regularly spends hours 'hunting' and my 2 year old is a son of a hunting bred dog imported from Norway. If my dogs cannot do what they were originally bred to do then they are poor examples of their breed.The fact that my boys CAN do their job doesn't mean that they are not well adjusted family pets who enjoy a walk with the family,a play with the kids and a sleep by the fire.
Archer

"The fact that my boys CAN do their job doesn't mean that they are not well adjusted family pets who enjoy a walk with the family,a play with the kids and a sleep by the fire.
Archer"

ok so now we have a situation  where a correct example of a particular type of dog that has been carefully bred over many years to have the mind and body to hunt elk is now in a situation completly alien to its purpose of very selective breeding being forced into a enviroment in your house. and your not contributing to the family pet stereotype you described before.

In that case why do you want a GSD then if you don't have sheep?

"If they aren't constructed correctly to do the job the breed was designed for, then they're not good examples of the breed."

so are you saying the gsd is now presently correctly constructed to herd sheep and yesteryears example now considered a bad example?

Don't understand your question.Niether JG or myself mentioned that yesteryears dogs were bad examples
Archer

"Don't understand your question.Niether JG or myself mentioned that yesteryears dogs were bad examples
Archer"

ok let me ask you. do you think that todays correct example of a gsd within the breed standard is better then previouse versions of gsd that was within the correct breed standard of that time or have the sheep changed causing the breeders to change what they think is the gsd .

All breeds change with time...that is down to breeders and the way they interpret the breed standard.A good dog 50 years ago was a good dog then but most would not win today because 50 years of people trying to improve the breed.Have they suceeded....well that depends doesn't it.If you look at the good examples of the breed ...yes I beleive they are better than the dogs of yesteryear. If you look at the 90% of GSD bred by Joe bloggs down the road in order to turn a quick buck then no. I ,like you ,prefer Germanic style GSD but find SOME of them to roached and fine.
Archer

ROFLMAO Archer

I was with some very good working dogs(mainly all german or geman/dutch/belgisn  imports)at the weekend & sorry your lovely dogs of the 49's to 60's would not have been able to work the way these dogs did as the first thing they have to pass(apart from Hip scores)is a rigorous temperament test & as I was around GSDs in the 50's * 60's the fashionable dogs would have failed at the temp test stage, espically the pale & washed out Avon Prince who was the top show & stud dog of the era who was exceeding windy & shy

The dogs I was with were not all the most beautiful of dogs(one was very glam tho')as they were mainly grey sables, but character & temperament were outstanding & there was no need to look twice to see if they were dogs or bitches

They were mostly within the breed standard not a roach back to be seen & the only longcoats were some obedience dogs belonging to a Ticket handler who was a spectator

The type most able to do the breed's original task is more correct. Whether or not that is the type that people like the look of is not the point, but it should be the type that wins. Early photographs of the breed, such as these can be very informative.

Well if you mean by yesteryeart the begginnings of the breed when the standard was established then your are mistaken in thining a heavy short on leg example (many of which look like giant Corgi's) was ever considered correct.  The early GSD were fairly squarely built, with at least half their height being leg length, and quite lightly built with dry musculature and heads, no loose skin or dewlaps and jowly heads.

It sems that here in the UK after the war the dogs became heavier and heavier,a nd the Poorly bred ones bore little reseblance to a GSD.

Imports were made from the country of origin, some of which to my and many peoples eyes were exagerated in to-pline and angles, but did thave the wiry body and leg length that was lacking in many British dogs.

There are many clever GSD breeders who have taken the best qualities needed and produced some really lovely modeerate athletic and handsome dogs, and as a result there have been some really good results in all breed competition at shows in recent years.

As for temperament some of the worst around came from a widely used Egnlish dogs, who sadly also procuced epilepsy in his descendants.

Some of the Germanic lines perhaps have rather more energy and drive than the average family would care to live with, but really that should not count as a negative as they are supposed to have the traits of a working sog, and not be just a stuffed toy.

As Archer and Jeangenie said they should have the ability and construction to work even if never called upon to do so.  This goes for mental traits to, and the mental enrgy shoudl be channeled into something positive the dog and owner can do together as a substitute for it's original work.

Very well said Brainless!
Archer

Well my lot enjoy their hunting trips to the Country park where they can use their noses to their hearts content hunting those very elusive Elk :D

The point is as they are a dog built for stamina they like long walks over varied and rugged terain with plenty of interesting smells, and have sufficient obedience to allow the to do so without getting me or them in trouble.  I do hasve to accept that they are a hunting dog so not put themselves or me in a sityation where they could get it wrong and go self employed in chasing stock, but as much as I have been able I have tried to accustom them to livestock so that on the rare occasion I might run into them (horses especially) then they are not that much of a novelty as to overide their training.

Our 'Elks' come in the form of little grey rodents who are very adept at climbing trees...but Asa LOVES them. Theres nothing better than waching him using him natural ability and instinct,running through the trees alert and 'alive'. When he finds one he stands and barks under the tree folowing it from tree to tree till I come and 'release' him.
I will now let you into a little secret Brainless LOL.Don't know if you remember but Asa was just about the worse showdog going as a youngster.He was 'robotic' and completely lifeless. I then had an idea...he always looked so good stood under that tree watching the squirrels so I started using a 'command' when he found a squirrel...I started telling him to 'mark it'. So now in the ring if I need to I can tell him to 'mark it' and I get immediate 'attitude' .....so thankyou little tree rats! BTW...to anyone concerned hes NEVER caught one....the ones where we exercise are far too used to dogs for that.I've even had one walk across the path in front of Kas who is kept on lead,'sit' down chatter at him then stroll off to the nearest tree!
Archer   

Great post Brainless.  I used to own and show GSDs.  It drives me nuts when people ask for big, long-coated dogs like "GSDs used to be like."  They didn't used to be big and long-coated!   Neither is ideal for a nimble, weather-proof herding dog, which was the original reason for the breed coming into being. 

Stacey

Isn't it very sad though that some people buy a Shepherd (or any breed for that matter, but particularly big dogs) because they like the "LOOK" of it, must have it for whatever reason. They take the cute little puppy home, where it is cherished and adored, then as it grows into a big boy and needs more attention it's less cute and gets ignored. Therefore he gets bored and starts chewing, he's then put in a shed outside to get even more bored, so starts digging holes. They can't cope, and the poor creature for no fault of his own ends up in a rescue. I donate food to a rescue when I am going that way, and the amount of Shepherds in there each time I go........................
Years ago when my parents kept a dog, you had to have a dog licence I think it was 7 shillings and sixpence, can't remember why it was abolished. Not saying they should bring it back or anything, just
wondering what happened about it, as my memory fails me.

<Years ago when my parents kept a dog, you had to have a dog licence I think it was 7 shillings and sixpence, can't remember why it was abolished. Not saying they should bring it back or anything, just wondering what happened about it, as my memory fails me. >

It was abolished as it cost more to run than the income generated hardly anyone bothered with them

We always have lots of GSDs in the Welfare we are supposed to only have 13 but there are always mor & mostly from Pet breeders who don't have the space to take back what they breed(& therefore in my eyes shouldn't breed at all) We have a local woman who breeds whites X sables & she actually tells the puppy buyers that if they don't want the dog at any stage to go to the welfare as its their "job"to do all rehoming !

The dog licence was abolished in about 1986 because very few people bothered to get one. It was indeed 7/6, which had been unchanged for donkey's years (if ever), and converted at decimalisation to 37.5p. It cost more to collect than it brought in revenue.

Thanks Jeangenie for the info

Hello Blueboy
I know that Archer has replied to you, and told you to grow up about your question about German Shepherds and being working dogs but I will tell you what I know about Tony Fox's version. Sasha is my first Shepherd and certainly won't be my last. My friend is a Shepherd trainer and it was through helping her by dog sitting on odd occaisions that I came to love the breed. There is usually a waiting list for Foxfolds, as they are so well known in the obedience ring. Tony Fox breeds from working stock lines, which means in his case, dogs which are used in obedience & agility shows, and not shown as in for looks. In any case a long coated shepherd is not acceptable in the show (for looks) ring. He is also a Working Trials competitor and trainer and teaches his dogs tracking. He also writes articles in books on the subject. My dogs GT.GT. grandfather is strangley enough, Blueboy of Foxfold. I do not work my dog in the sense of going in a show ring to compete against other dogs to gain trophies etc. but she gets loads of stimulation on 2-3 walks a day (off lead in woodlands), obedience training etc.
They were bred originally to herd farm animals, hence you have difficulty finding a holiday let cottage
in sheep country in Wales if you own a Shepherd, although I personally always keep her on a lead near livestock. She does swim in a pool with ducks and will take bread out to them in her mouth and feed them.
She is a joy to own, but is alot of (pleasant and rewarding) work. I am early retired so I have the time to give her.
I have a very large garden with lots of jobs to do in it and she is always there "helping" me. She wants to be "doing" something all the time, hence the working dog. If you haven't the time to put in then it's not fair on the dog, as she would be busy all day.  But I will say she has never ever destroyed a thing, and she loves taking one of her many "gillies" (cuddly gorilla) to bed with her to cuddle. On a walk in the woods, if a lone male approaches us she comes straight to my side and stays with me until he has passed, such intelligence. Good Luck but be prepared to give your all, for the dogs sake.

Forgot to say Blueboy, Sasha is brilliant with my grandchildren and loves to play with them. On holiday she loves going into the pub and being spoiled by everyone, she just so loves company 2 or 4 legged. But with having such a long coat she hates any sort of heat, so I have saved quite a bit on my central heating bills, I just have to wear a fleece

ANYWAY.......... 5 years later on, i have two lovely boys, the 1st one is typical show stock of the germanic build and the 2nd one is a long haired black quite stocky looking, both ARE entire, they do not fight , i love them both and both are soooo very different, the show stock one is right on the button, he misses nothing, really clever dog, the other tends to follow the 1st one around for guidance but is far stronger and not as bright he often makes me laugh when he runs as he wastes so much energy as he litfs his body so high into the air with each push of his back legs, where the show stock dog runs very efficiantly kind of gracfull in comparison.right or wrong they now come into my bedroom at night which can leave me gasping in shock when my nuts get jumped on but i blame the mrs for allowing it in the 1st place. YES I DO HAVE SHEEP NOW..LOL and 2 horses and no i never ever let the dogs in the same area as the sheep or horse.  just looking how to attach photos here to show them to you all. if this is possible let me know soon. i will try to post again soon before another 5 years has passed, talking of passing i hope you are all still with us.
bye for now

Brainless - the link to the original stock was very interesting. I particularly admire Klodo von Boxberg & Troll von Richterback. The difference between these dogs and the current German showdogs is frighteningly different. I think a lot of people who remember back to shepherds when they were young are referring to dogs of this construction and stature. Todays roach backed and hunched german show lines are a pale caricature of the founder Max V Stephanitz's vision. The working lines are much better, but do, I think lack the stature of the earlier dogs.

All about to change though I think (or hope)

I'm closing this as it's such an old thread. Thanks for the update though blueboy :-)