I think now is the time to warn all dog owners of the implications to them off the invocation of the Parliament Act by the Labour Government tonight.

Everyone of your dogs is at risk from February onwards.

Any dog who is seen to chase a mammal (not kill) just chase is at risk of being reported (by so called animal lovers or just by silly busibodies)to the police and that dog could well be seized and if proven in court owners fined and dog possibly destroyed (at the very least not allowed back into owners care).

Well all I can say is Tony Blair you have played right into the hands of those far more intelligent than you and your mp's, just wait for the reaction that is going to happen.  If you thought the demonstration up to now were bad, you haven't seen anything yet!!!!!!

Liberty and Livelihood for All

Well if the House of Lords had agreed to the compromise they could've bought folk more time to adjust. I am thrilled fox hunting/hunting with dogs has been banned. I'm sure all people/places affected will find alternative lively hoods, us folk up North have been forced to adapt with changing industry for years.
As for dog owners being taken to court, I have faith that judges/juries throughout the land will let common sense prevail and not condemn every animal for following it's natural instincts.

The only reason that the Labour Party wanted a compromise, was not to give people more time to adjust, but to stop the ban coming in before the next election.

and if judges who made decisions on the DDA are the same judges who will be in the chair when anyone is taken to court over Hunting with Dogs, then god help the dogs!!!!!

As someone said tonight on Question Time, if the backbenchers were threatening to resign over the death of a few foxes, why on earth didn't they threaten the same thing over the deaths of thousands in Irag!!!!!

Apparently several hundred hours have been spent debating foxhunting in government, surely that should have been spent debating more important isues, such as NHS, education, social problems etc.

You mean like they do with the Dangerous Dogs Act? !

I too am dismayed by todays activities.

Whether pro or anti everyone should look at the time and effort and dedication this appalling government has put into pursuing this - whilst our soldiers are out in an unjust war, our NHS is in crises, our schools are underfunded and we have no money for pensions!

It won't save a single fox either - instead they will be trapped, shot or gassed.

Very sad state of affairs. Blair is a pathetic pawn in the hands of a government desperate to get one over on the "tory toffs" and get a tick in ONE box of his "election promises" - I suppose they had to be seen to be doing SOMETHING.

Shame on you Blair. Are you going to destroy the dogs?

ChloeH

>>It won't save a single fox either - instead they will be trapped, shot or gassed.<<

I couldn't agree more! And what about when they are "controlled" using any of the above methods and they suffer for days in agony as the "controlling method" hasn't been used efficiently?

I am neither pro or anti hunting, but I respect peoples rights, which is more than this Government does. And we live in a supposed democracy............thats the biggest laugh I have heard since the WMD debate!!!

Gassing is illegal.

Helen

Gassing foxes is legal. See Agriculture Act 1947.

Gassing is not technically illegal, although it is impracticable because a licence has not been given to any form of gas that could be used on foxes, which effectively makes it illegal.

It still happens!

>It still happens!

Illegally then it would seem...

"permits the use of gassing foxes underground, although this method of control is no longer practised since the approval for Cymag ® was withdrawn."

Which makes it a moot point really.

Helen

It's something that the majority of the UK population has wanted for years. Something Labour used to get elected initally and failed to deliver. It's about Time tory Tony followed through. And you're probably right about him wanting to put it off until after the election for obvious reasons but thats not how it's happened and at last it's done. Iraq is a bloody disgrace, the NHS is a disgrace I could go on but for me a ban on bloodsport is long overdue.
Beagle for the hunt or beagle for science.....both deserve to be domesticated pets!

Where are your stats and figures?

Majority of the UK population couldn't give a toss IMO.

And around here the majority SUPPORT hunting.

Its not done, not by a long way. I don't hunt - but I support the choice of those who wish to do so whilst it remains the least cruel method:

Well they do care in this village after years of having the horses & hounds from the local hunt trample all over the village killing cats, breaking into gardens were in season bitches live, cr*pping all over & causing no less than five near fatal RTA's when some hounds got "lost"and wandered on to a dual carriageway The local Parish council all the elected members of which are Farmers or their spouses the Hunt is now forbidden to enter the village & all the surrounding Farm Land. The final straw was when the hounds trepassed on to a farm followed by the horseriders & stampeded 20 in calf heifers on the Organic farm, three of the heifers aborted & two others died. The court case was settled a couple of weeks ago but now the Master of the Hunt & the Hunters have no money to pay the damages & are pleading poverty(Odd they can all afford 04 reg Range Rovers & all run very successful businesses) & gess what the hounds are NOT covered by any insurance as they couldn't find an insurance company to cover them even for 3rd party claims

I noted one Master of the Hunt said on prime time TV that the aim was too cause as much disruption as possible & get rid of the blank socializts.(Oh that this government was Socializt & not further right than Maggie T in many things) & that the lower classes were jealous & the Hunters say it's the antis that are class motivated. Odd then that locally the main mover of getting the hunt banned from the village & the local farms is a relative of HM the Queen, one of the "upper"class who doesn't enjoy killing for fun & sport !

Hi Spook.

Beagles are not a breed that are really suitable to being a domestic pet in the main. They are hounds are are and have been bred for a purpose.

These breeds, if it all goes through and the ban stays ( I doubt it will ever happen and will be reversed in time) will firstly have an acceleration of numbers in the breed rescues and then will become a rare breed and finally with become extinct. The amount of dogs and horses that will be PTS because of this is to me a crying shame.

And as for the livelyhoods of people saying they will get alternative jobs. What these jobs are going to be as I am interested to find out what !

I do think that people do not realise the full implications of what this all means. :(

Lucy
xx

that is simply not true lady dazzle - the wording of the hunting with dogs bill makes it very clear that an INTENT to hunt needs to be proved - no-ones dog is going to be at risk from this bill and this is simply scaremongering. Even the Countryside Alliance do not spout this kind of rubbish. If your dog chases a rabbit/fox/ squirrel whilst out for his walk you will NOT be prosecuted and your dog will NOT be taken away to be destroyed !!!.

If however you are deliberately chasing animals on horseback with a pack of hounds then it's going to be pretty hard for you to deny intent :D

Spook "As for dog owners being taken to court, I have faith that judges/juries throughout the land will let common sense prevail and not condemn every animal for following it's natural instincts."

Trevor " no-ones dog is going to be at risk from this bill and this is simply scaremongering."

......do you not remember the travesties of justice when the Dangerous Dogs Act was introduced in 1991?

Do you trust our judicial system?

I wish that I was as naive as people who say that this bill will not effect normal dog owners. I hope that they are right and my fears are unfounded. Time will tell.

snomaes

So if my Border Terriers chase and catch and kill a Fox, and I am there saying "oh no, don't do it" then its ok is it?  no horse here, no pack, but how could anybody possibly prove I was "hunting with my dogs?"
Dawn.

would not owning a hound or terrier breed prove intent?

JUDGES WITH COMMAN SENSE!!!!!!!!!!!!Are we talking about the same judges that let hit and run MURDERERS off with a fine and a bit of community service, oh yes lots of comman sense.

Trevor, you realise that horses are not involved in hunting with basset or beagle packs? It's done on foot? Much harder for an innocent dog walker to prove the difference - and the onus is to prove your innocence, not for the court to prove your guilt.

In my opinion it is now time to train your dogs to not chase and have a positive recall and down command. Not just say 'oh well it is in the breed to chase'. All dogs can be trained to do the recall and down. So, don't be lazy put more time into your dogs welfare.

I as usual can see both sides, and i understand the concern, but i always felt this was scaremongering too.
Re beagles, a dog owner such as my friend who owns two would not be at risk because she is very obviously a dog owner and has 2 beagles and not a pack. The only people, as far as i know, who take beagles out in packs would be those intending to hunt.

I know there are plenty who disagree, many of whom i have great respect for, but that's my opinion! :D

Lindsay
X

Well I hope your right Trevor.

Unfortunately I don't think you are, if I recall correctly there has already been a case of woman being taken to court because her dog chased a squirrel in a park, it was thrown out because the law had not been passed at that time.

Maybe your views on human nature are different to mine.  there are some very malicious people out there who would delight in reporting someones dog for hunting mammals

So what to you constitutes a pack?  I have 10 Border Terriers and if you are right, that then means that when I take them out for a their run on the beach, and they unfortunately set up a fox in the dunes, it is going to be ignored because they are not a pack? Or is it more likely that some do-gooder out for their walk will consider that they are hunting and ring the police?

Also for your information rabbits are exempt rom the new law!!!! But hares aren't can someone tell me how I train my dogs to know the difference?

I am not scaremongering!!!! This is what is says in the new law

33. "Hunting a wild mammal with a dog" is in particular where a person engages or participates in the pursuit of a wild mammal and one or more dogs are used in the pursuit.

You tell me how you prove that you are'nt doing the above, when your dogs chase a mammal!!!!

I think you answer your own question Lady Dazzle - there is a difference between 'chasing' and 'hunting'.

What a load of twaddle.

If my dogs chase an animal they are not doing it for fun, they are pursuing their natural instinct to hunt!!!!!!!!

mine do actually,they only want to chase & even if they corner they just let it go again,thats natural for a collie though,not for a hound or terrier though!!!!

Not all collie's do that though Michelle.

My sons working collie's are the best ratters around, they are even quicker than my Borders at times.

my friend has got BTs & when theyve been ratting or mousing mine have looked on totally bemused!!!!
still your point just goes to show that any breed could be in trouble!

mine were herding ducks yesterday,what if someone had reported me?????? would i have had to prove they were herding not hunting?????

Is there really? So if a dog goes after a rabbit (as instinctively a dog is hard-wired to chase a moving object), you say it isn't hunting it?

If that were so there'd be no problem. All anyone would need say, as they rode out after the foxhounds, was that they weren't 'hunting', they were only 'chasing'.

I think the difference is what the dog would actually do if it caught the animal/object it was hunting.  Dogs chase cars and bikes but I don't think you could class that hunting.

Fiona

Fair enough. If it's an inanimate object then it's being chased. If it's an animal it's being hunted. We're back with the same problem again ...

My dog chases my cats, my children, other dogs (when playing) and crows.  I really don't believe she is hunting them, I think she just enjoys the chase (in the same way as children enjoy the chase when playing tag).  Maybe I can only speak for my dog, but I don't believe every dog would kill or hurt what it is chasing.  If they did it for long enough, or actually did taste blood at the end of it for whatever reason, then maybe they would start hunting, but my dog (and I can only judge by her) doesn't even like raw meat and won't touch any birds the cats catch.

Fiona

Key phrase there seems to be "where a person engages or participates in...". If my dog chases a squirrel in the park and I am trying to call it back I am clearly not participating in the hunt am I?

I am actually not in favour of the ban (I would have preferred to see licenced hunting) - but I do not think comparisons between this and the DDA are helpful. The DDA's wording puts the onus on you to prove your dog did not frighten someone
(quite apart from the problems of identifying breeds) - ie guilty until proven innocent. This puts the onus on someone else to prove you were participating - and to do that they would have to prove intent (innocent until proven guilty as it should be).

I would like to see the details of the case mentioned about a woman whose dog chased a squirrel. Find it hard to believe such a case would not have been plastered across the dog press....

Janet

I remember reading about this squirrel case in the Telegraph, but can't find the evidence on the net ...

Actually Trevor, Lady Dazzle is not 'spouting rubbish' as you so nicely put it....

Someone explain to me why it is cruel to course hares with dogs & not cruel to shoot them... surely coursing only kills the weaker animals..

I was talking to one of my customers the other day, he'd been shooting hares in Scotland, between about 6 of them they shot 138...he didn't reply when I asked how many were wounded & got away..

Dogs NEVER wound...

Lady Dazzle will be prosecuted if her borders were to chase a fox, as I will be if my lurchers come across a fox while rabbiting (happened last night)...

Of course dogs can wound :rolleyes:

Please do not scare monger Lady Dazzle, as Trevor says this applies to people who deliberately go out with the INTENT to hunt and kill eg hare coursers etc!

Ok you lot here is what the new laws says!!!

It does not distinguish between a pack or a single dog

B1. What are the main provisions of the Bill?
B2. What are the exemptions?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

B1. What are the main provisions of the Bill?
The Bill makes it an offence for anyone to hunt a wild mammal with a dog, subject to the exemptions in Schedule 1 of the Bill. It also makes it an offence for a person to knowingly permit their land or dogs to be used for such hunting. It outlaws hare coursing events, and makes it an offence to participate in, attend, facilitate or allow their dogs to be used in such events.

It gives the police powers to arrest anybody they reasonably suspect to have committed, be committing or be about to commit certain offences. It provides that a person found guilty of an offence is liable on conviction in a magistrates' court to a fine of up to £5,000. It also entitles the police to stop and search persons, vehicles, animals or possessions; and to seize vehicles, animals or possessions for use as evidence in prosecutions.

Finally, it gives the Courts powers to order persons convicted to forfeit relevant dogs, vehicles or hunting articles; and provides for these items to be destroyed, disposed or returned.

B2. What are the exemptions?
The exemptions from the offence of illegal hunting permit the following types of hunting:

Stalking and flushing out
Use of dogs below ground, in the course of stalking and flushing out, to protect birds for shooting
Hunting rats and rabbits
Retrieval of hares which have been shot
Falconry
Recapture of wild mammals
Rescue of wild mammals
Research and observation
These exemptions are subject to strict conditions (eg on the number of dogs which can be used and on the ownership of the land on which it takes place). The schedule also requires that animals flushed out must be shot as soon as possible afterwards by a "competent person". These conditions are intended to prevent abuse of the exemptions.

I do understand the concern; i am very protective of my rights to walk my dog (and she has a high chase instinct which is innate in her breed). I am a member of the NFDOG because i take my right to walk with my dog off lead in safety seriously. However, I'm just not worried about this law though. Maybe I'm crazy but there you go :)

Good luck with this debate folks - I'm off to prepare for a trial tomorrow.

Lindsay
X

Can I bring you all back to my previous post of train your dog to recall and down on command. More than one dog constitutes a pack and if not under control can cause mayhem when running together, so control is the word. Hunting dogs are under control of a whipper in so us as dog owners should also be in control of our dogs. Dogs do not know the difference between one running animal to another but we do and it is up to us to make sure that our dogs are controlled when out on walks. How many owners are not happy when their dogs chase joggers or cars and take measures to stop it, the same applies to any thing else that dogs think they should chase.

Try telling that to a Malamute or husky ;)

But surely by your own advice any responsible person would NEVER walk a mal or husky OTL......thereby if your pooch did chase something the fact that you're getting dragged along behind or left holding a snapped lead would help your defence.......

Actually I think dogs DO know the difference between one running animal to another...

Geoff :)

Tohme, please explain why you are prepared to take Trevors word for it and not Lady Dazzles? As far as I am aware, Trevor has not quoted from any official source whereas, if you look below, LD has. I would be very interested to know

Sorry maybe I should have said that any running animal or human can/is likely to cause a chase instinct in some or all dogs and therefore it is still paramount that owners should train their dogs to recall immediately or down on command. Stop being so defensive and get out there and train them.

No one is being defensive, realisitic probably ;) My dogs are trained, however, I *know* that if they saw something small and furry, running away, all training would disappear.

I'm sorry but if you say your dogs are trained and you can't stop them from taking off and chasing then they are not fully trained. I know I can stop my dogs from continuing a chase from the moment they set off, the same as all the owners that I/we train. ie: recall or down.

What breeds are your dogs Jumbuck? I ask as I know from many years experience some breeds are more responsive than others in training. Even between the types of retrievers there are basic differences needed in handling and training techniques. The age at which the dogs mature can also play a part in any training programme.