The Genetic Testing thread had closed by the time I got round to reading it, but I do have a few questions for Avaunt.

1. What dna testing are the Germans doing on their dogs? They have to have hips x-rayed for the ZTP - but what about testing for PHPV, vWD, thyroid and DCM (annually) before breeding.

2. Why do you denigrate English (by which I assume you mean Scottish, Welsh, Irish as well as English) Dobes when they all descend from the same stock, just by a different route?

3. What is an British Dobe - by which I mean how many generations of being born in this country makes them British?

Christine

Christine,
If you go by German citizenship laws for consideration of those German breeds...never. Backwards logic :D Seriously, if you move here to Germany & you are only English (or Scottish,Welsh, or Irish), even after 3 or 4 generations, you will still be considered a nonGerman. The Turks & Poles have that problem. So did German Jews in 1930s & 40s.

But, I can apply for German citizenship because my mother's grandparents were German & immigrated to the US in 1896. Same for my husband on his paternal side-- two documented German familial lines immigrated in 1863 & 1889. I have to have proof (which I do) to do this, but it's possible. Now how's that for wierdness.

Supposedly, there's a secondary naturalization law that's no longer based on Blood, but it's still hard to get. Oh, and the Germans still complain about the "recent" move of German Russians back to the Fatherland in the 1990s. Nice tax breaks & allowances by the Government for them. (They had been allowed back in because their families had left for Russia in the 1800s)
toodles

Hi Toodles

But ........... the Dobermann is a German breed and ALL descend from German stock - how would this work? If you would still be considered non-German after three or four generations surely the opposite, in this case, would apply

Christine

Christine,
Such deep thinking for an lazy Sunday afternoon :D :D :D
I get your point though. I have no idea about the differences in English [$ German Dobies, especially since all Dobies are originally from Germany. So, if someone messes up with the lines in England, regardless, the dogbreed is still German. Perhaps they still don't understand English even after all this time or they just wanna return to the land of Brats & Beer ])

All I know is that the Dobies here have cropped ears....which I have never liked. But they are rather rare to see here. Rotties, Labs, & GSDs are the dogs I see out on the trails where I live.
toodles

It was also padlocked before Avaunt had a chance to tell me what quarry he was going to "poach by moonlight"....would still like to know please.

Moonflowers :D :D :D Oh & Fairies from the fairy rings :D

Or magic mushrooms !!!! (g)

Hi Toodles,

I think you will find that the majority of the youngsters coming along should have natural ears and tails - unless they are cropped/docked and imported.

I have not seen Avaunt's views on c/d but obviously s/he does not mind as is intending to import a German dog in a year or two, be nice to see more natural Dobes in the UK

Christine

Kerioake.
Firstly, I do not breed and never would. I am one of those who depends on breeders who have an excellent record of breeding what they say they breed.

Secondly I have no opinion one way or the other on Croping or docking, although I don’t like the idea of ears being taped and barred for months on end. It does not matter anyway because they have not cropped or docked in Germany this past 2 years.

1. I posted the results of some DNA testing +HD x rays on the Sch invite board. All I have to add to that is the fact that every time I contact a German breeder, go to see one, or am referred to one, one of the first things, amongst many things they say, spontaneously, is we DNA test.

2. IF I denigrate british dogs, it’s because the breeders here have no critisism of what they breed and no improvement can be made with that cultural attitude. It’s a poor breeder or trainer who can learn no more.

Every single German trainer or breeder I have ever spoken to, and I did some training there in 83/4, invariably comes out with where he/she can improve on the nerve thresholds, where the drive balances need improving to get a better balance….how to maintain a good balanced line and a million and one other things that I am to bored to go into. They are VERY self critical, they have to be, they are in competition nationally with the world and the results show.

What happened here is when Iceburg won Crufts everyone wanted his line, the mixes were wrong and that was the beginning of the end, it’s the mixes. Dobes are a fragile breed to get right, very.

There were good working line Dobes here but the last disappeared in the late seventies early eighties, the Hillmora’s.

My last with a very good working capacity I got in 1984 from a German import into the old Finjans BUT the breeder, me and the stud owner knew that only one or two of the litter MIGHT be back towards the German. He was, very much so and well proven at both ends of his character, but it was luck no more.

I think what I dislike most about the Brit show dogs is that they put them under ‘working breeds’ they are not, they are bred for looks. They are not working dogs, a working Lab would be kicked out of a show, to small not much bigger than a spaniel..

Dobermans with those long backs, heavens knows what problems that will lead to but it makes ear cropping look docile in comparison.

Anyway I don’t think there is anything wrong with English dogs providing the breeders make it clear that they make good pets, POSSIBLY show dogs but they are NOT working dogs. I object to people selling pedigree dogs on some pretence it can work close to the breeds original capacity and with little training.

There is always the occasional one which shows high drives, well balanced thresholds, but that’s just coincidence and luck.

So I think my gripe is that people breed such dogs as Rottweilers as if they are a protection dog. The occasional one might be but that’s only a throw back.

And more than anything I do not like the insular Brit way of lack of self critisism of their breeding when they have not had ONE international champion...'nothing for us to learn from them'......as 'them' walk off with championship.

You obviously have not been around many working Labradors then! As size goes most are within breed standard on height. Because they tend to be leaner they may not appear to be that big but my own bitch is about 3 inches OVER breed standard!
As for International Champions in the show world, I know of several including the 1980 Crufts BIB Shargleam Blackcap

avaunt---all but the last dig was nearly very civil, it makes for much better reading when you dont come across as some anti everybody who hasnt got a german dobe---you dismiss us all with the same attitude ,that we dont care or dont try to improve, i do know what you are trying to say and if you managed not to be so hostile in presenting it youd gain far more respect also interest and discussion on your ideas,
i am very critical in what i breed also very in tyemperament, which i did explain to you but it vanished, -think about it from the breeders who do try, who do test for whatever their breed requirements are, then have to put up with the attacks you dish out to them often!!!we're not all the same and we dfont all breed just for money,

Well...Labs...here in London you would be hard pushed to find a male Lab much below 8 stone, my dog is 28inch to withers and they are around the same, some an inch or so shorter, low drives, if any drives.

When I go to the country (not for election) the Labs I see there are very small, wirey, agile and high drives.

The owners tell me they are working Labs and I have watched them on estate pheasant shoots.

The owners I talk to in the countryside say they are working Labs, from what you say they must just lie to me.

I was brought up with working Border Collies and what on earth those poor creatures are doing stuck here in London as one of the latest fashion dogs is sheer inhumane, but the breeders make money so why worry.

I well remember the farmers when I was a kid haveing husbandry records and no pedigrees their idium was 'Let them show folks get 'em and they'll make monkeys out of 'em'.....well not quite right, the 'show folks' have made money, but the dogs....well they are climbing up trees in frustration of unappeased working drives.

If the lie to you that their and your problem and nothing to do with me!

The fact that I am detatched from Labs as you should be from Dobes gives me an objective perception of what I see and hear.

It is not many years since a Dobermann bitch won the Bitch Obedience championships at Crufts. Hardly any breeds other than Border collies or their unregistered equivalents gain that honour anymore!

This year there were only 2 Cross breeds in one of the sexes, and a Goldie in one of the others (I think the crosses were Collie crosses)!

The problem is brainless not enough people put that effort into their dogs.

If thats put into context, a Dobe cannot be shown in an adult championship show in Europe unless it has passed Schutzhund 1. So every single Dobe (and some other breeds) that is shown in a champ show either in Europe or if you see them in Crufts here have ALL acheived Sch1.

If you see so called labs 28in high they are NOT LABS,please stick to what you know about.

[deleted]

[deleted]

Avaunt

Do you talk to many British breeders - many of us test our dogs. The
results you have posted under the other heading mean nothing - they could be
any dog. I could post the results of all my dogs without their names and
you would still be none the wiser.
Perhaps you talk "at" rather than "to" British breeders? This would
automatically get backs up

Don't forget that in Germany there are many more clubs than exist here for
Schutzhund - it is more a way of life. Here, until recently it was frowned
upon by the KC and you could have lost the right to register pups - rather
defeats the object doesn't it if you work to improve your dogs and then
can't register them. Not all the clubs welcome Dobes - in fact just the
opposite. My nearest one is around two hours away and was most
unwelcoming - they just want GSD - I for one would not wish to train in that
atmosphere.

What do you call a working dog - one that does schutzhund? This, to me, is
a sport and was not the Dobes original function which was as a personal
protection dog. Most canine disciplines are sport - obedience, agility,
flyball, Working Trials, Working Tests, hunting. Working dogs to me, are
those who people depend upon for work or living such as
guide/hearing/disabled dogs, sheepdogs, police and custom dogs.

What do you call an international champion? It is only recently that UK
dogs have been permitted to be shown abroad AND come back home again! Since
then there have been at least two foreign champions (Luxemburg I think).
During the last ten years dogs exported to Canada, America, Jamacia and
Barbados have all become Champions.

Of course this country has been fairly insular in its breeding - quarantine
saw to that, but since this has been lifted there have been quite a few
people taking their dogs abroad to be mated and different bloodlines are
more readily available, in fact if you happen to want a stud dog for your
bitch of UK breeding for at least four or five generations this is getting
almost impossible to find.

I would be interested to hear more about why you think the bitches taken to
Iceberg were the wrong mixes (just to help you there are 54 answers required
here). Why do you think they are a fragile breed - in what way.

What success have you had with your current Dobe (and yes I do have a very
good idea who his sire is as he is about the only German import during that
time frame and is behind most of mine)

Personally I don't feel that it is the dog's that cannot do the various
sports but that the owners don't feel the need to train them - if every dog
had to pass certain criteria, health and training*, before it could be bred
from then this would definitely be a step forward.

*training - in this country having to pass the manwork section of the ZTP
(Fit for breeding test) would not be a good idea as too many people would
then see the dog as an extention of their, umm, testosterone, but the
tracking and control, agility elements could certainly be included for the
working breeds with other specfic tests being developed for each group.

Christine

You still have not answed Christines questions!? i feel that although you obviously think you know alot about dogs,you are pretty patronizing about it and that is why you get so many peoples back up! Dobes breeding have been resricted for years in this country because of the quarentine laws but that is not to say that any German dobe is of a better quality than an English Dobe.Surely, any responsible Dobe owner would ensure that their dog is well trained but different people want their dogs for different things. Anyone wanting a pet is not going to go to the same lengths as someone in the show ring! All types of training is better for any dog than to be left to run riot! To suggest that Germans are better than anyone else at it just because of the heritage that a Dobe has with Germany is incredably patronizing!!! And you still have not answered Christines questions!!!!

Hi Sharon

I see you have not got used to our friend's tactics yet !!!! :D
He doesn't answer questions and his sole purpose is to wind everyone up !! :) :) Which, incidentally, is the one thing he does rather well.....

Don't bother trying to get answers out of him, it doesn't work
Beth

Hi Salem,
He won't answer it either. Various questions asking for direct clarification have been posed many times to him & has been ignored each instance. Including the one that if he's so anti-British dobie breeding, why does he purchase them & seem to respect their breeder despite its inbred deficiencies (sp?).
Apparently, it's his right to ignore & insult. He is not open for truly free discussion. It's just not worth getting all heated up on it & it'll result in the thread being pulled & censored. Give it up & relax :D
toodles

I have read all the post with much interest. I have owned Dobes since 1988 and I think they have major health concerns wherever they were bred or whatever their breeding is. My first Dobermann was "English" bred if you like, he had hypothyroidism was a monorchid, was Von willebrands "affected", and died of Cardiomyopathy at 5 yeard old. My second Dobe was a rescue, he had Wobblers syndrome. I work with dogs and know of several "European" bred dogs with Von willebrands, and that have thyroid problems and have severe temperament faults too. I think we should all test our dogs for all the health problems that we can and try to ensure we breed healthy puppies, nature is not perfect and we will never produce a perfect dog, but at least we can try.
Dawn

Well Dawn, thats 2 of us voteing for breeding licences, I feel underwhelmed.

But then we are talking about imposing selection criteria from on high, which may conflict with the breeders legitimate choice to breed easier going more placid dobes, not suited to these tests.

I am caring for a European bred dobie pup at the moment, and she is much harder work than my friends older dog at the same age! I fed and walked him while she was at work right through his puppy hood. He is a very well adjusted male, who is friendly to people and dogs, but is the most reliable as to when guarding is actually called for. He never barks in the garden without need, he leaves that to the others!

The little bitch is a real cutie, but she never stops, walking her, her eyes dart here there an everywhere, in case she misses something.

Both haven't a trace of nervousness! They are very different, but I would take the male any day of the week. Most people have no intention of working their dogs in dog sports, as most will never show or breed. There is danger in extremes of selection for any trait!

What about a license for people wishing to own a 'working' dog. Any sign of mental immaturity on the part of the prospective owner, such as a puerile sense of humour could be a disqualifying factor :)

That would sound a very good idea Isabel. Some people would definately be disqualified on that count!

Regards, John

Shouldn't we be breeding dogs of correct temperament according to their breed. Dobermanns are not placid dogs and we shouldn't try to alter their temperament, nor should we try to alter other dogs temperament to suit our needs. People who have come to our kennels thinking we sell dogs (which we don't) have said they want a Jack Russell or some other Terrier but not one that is yappy. Terriers were bred to bark and bay constantly under ground, should we try to change this?, after all it is the breeds natural characteristic.
Just my opinion
Dawn.

I think anyone breeding terriers to be yappy needs their head examined. That would be condemning them to death in this day and age. The cast majority of dogs go to pet homes and that is what we should be breeding the temperament for.

I've noticed in the last 15yrs that the majority of Terrier breeds aren't as yappy as they used to be.

Fiona
x x x

Brainless,
I think you will often find that the male Dobes are much calmer and easier to live with than the bitches - this is certainly my experience although whether other people would say the same I don't know.

Isabel,
don't know about a licence to own one of the working breeds - I think some kind of test would be useful whatever breed you own - prior to getting it and occasionally during its life time to make sure you have continued to learn about your dog and its needs and are training it accordingly

Avaunt,
Still awaiting replies to my questions above

Christine

I am saying that we should not destroy breed characteristics, Terriers do bark, Labradors do carry things around, should we then breed Labradors that won't carry just in case they nick your slippers!! and that would not be acceptable in a home ? If you wish to breed dogs that don't bark, breed Basenji's. "yapping" as you call it is the trade mark of a good Terrier it is essential for the job he was bred for. We should not change breeds to suit our needs, we should buy the appropriate breed to suit our requirements in the first place, not go for a dog we like the look of, maybe then the rescue societies would not be innundated with dogs they cannot home just because they are displaying the natural breed characteristics.
No offence intended, just my opinion.
Dawn.

Basenji's might not bark but don't ever get the impression they cannot make a noise - they yodel, howl, chirrup and have a wide range of other noises - I considered these as a "back-up" breed about 10 years ago when my back went and I could barely walk for about four months and I thought the Dobes would be too strong for me. Spent a long time looking in them and made some good friends in the breed in the process.

Christine

I am pretty friendly with acouple of Basenji folk.

I admired Paul singletons decision to not go on Blue Peter or do the Chum Telly adverts, as he wanted to keep the breed from undue rise in people wanting one.

They are definately not a quiet breed, lol. Definately a breed to learn about and test drive several times before taking the plunge into ownership. I do like them though

Handled one of Jane Gostynska's to BOB at South West Hound when she ran out of hands. My daughter when she used to come to shows (dogs not so cool now at 14), often helped her out at Open shows.

Just to clarify, I am very fond of Basenji's, I was just saying they don't bark.
Dawn.

I own 5 terriers and I'm proud to say none of them are yappy. Yes they were bred to bay under ground but that's underground when doing a job. That doesnt make them yappy.

My Dandie Dinmont Terrier definately does not yap. They are renouned for their deceptively large bark. In fact on the few occasions she barks its so scarey I have considered entering her for schutzhund :D

Bec.
Not just underground!
You say that you breed temperament to suit a pet home, I am sorry but I will never breed to supply the needs of a pet market. How could I breed a litter of Border Terriers, knowing that I WILL work and possibly show the ones that I keep, but realising that the ones I don't keep will probably go as pets. You can't breed litters in two halves, one half pet temperament, one half CORRECT temperament. When people ask me about Borders, thinking they want one, I always say come and see them in their own environment, behaving naturally first (if it is their first). See the breed for what it is , make the right choice first time.
Happy dogs with the right owners !!
Just how I feel
Dawn.

I don't breed to suit the pet market I breed for myself. However, I know that most of my pups will end up in pet homes and therefore that should be taken into consideration. Remember that a Westie is still on death row because it barked too much is that what you want with your 'correct' temeprament pups you breed? Besides show me where in the breed standard it says that the dogs should be noisy?

The Westie barks all day because it is left unnattended, again the wrong type of dog in the wrong situation. I am glad you have the space to keep all the dogs you breed for yourself, most of us don't. No one said they should be noisey, just that "barking" is a part of their inbred nature, and as breeders we should breed dogs true to their respective breeds type and temperament.

As for breed standards, Bec, we could go on all day and they are after all set up for conformation and structure and don't go into characteristics much do they.

Anyway 40 odd dogs to sort out.
Dawn.

Barking is inherent in ALL dogs. Barking excessively is a sign of distress. No breed of dog needs to bark excessively and therefore cannot be seen as a trait of a particular breed.
And where have I said I keep all the dogs I breed?

you said "I breed for myself", what else could that mean ?
Oh, you don't inherit things like barking, that is like saying we inherit walking or talking, people who don't have arms or legs do not produce this in their children. It is an inborne genetic blueprint, which is strengthened by selective breeding to produce the dogs we have today.

Anyway I will not get into a "cat fight" over this, I firmly believe breeding healthy dogs according to their breeds type and temperament is what we should strive for, not altering breeds to suit others needs or to supply a demand.
Dawn.

Come on Dawn dont be so simplistic.
When someone says they Breed For Myself it means they have a litter to continue their lines only when they want a replacement or an addition. It is the opposite of those who breed for "the Money" or because "it is good for the bitch".
We breed for ourselves and in the last 9 years have had 3 litters and kept 6 of the offspring. We also still have the original bitches who are obviously now veterans who are enjoying their retirement and we will not part with them.

Longdog.
I know what it means !! but saying barking is inherant, just took the "biscuit". I too have dogs in retirement, I have never nor would ever part with any of them, it is a shame that some breeders do. I think it is lovely to see the older ones curled up in front of the fire or in this house "welded" to it, with one of the cats licking their faces, that in itself gives me pleasure knowing they are happy and contented.
Dawn

Dawn I suggest you look up the word inherent and inherit I think you'll find they mean different things.

Like Basenji's you mean? (inherant)
Look its getting out of hand, the original post was about breeding dogs to suit pet homes as you clearly think is corrcet, I don't. We are all entitled to our own opinion, I will continue to strive for a dog of correct breed type and temperament, if you want to breed for pet homes, then do so.
Dawn.

Dawn,
Just a thought....if someone is extremely hept on keeping the breed unadapted to modern needs & desires, one of these days, the demand for that breed will decline so much that overbreeding becomes a high probability just due to the tiny genetic pool.

There are plenty of breeds that have died out just due to the lack of need or owner interest. As a breeder, are you willing to maintain the high road of breeding dogs that are not inclined or adaptive enough to fit into a modern household at the risk of seeing the breed vanish?

Not being accusatory... just curious to see how far you'd go in theory to maintain the the moral ground.
I find it interesting that dogs, who have been tinkered with since they came to visit the campfire 20 or so thousands of years ago, have now been put into categories where further adaptive practises are now held to scorn & ridicule.
toodles

Toodles :D You have said exactly what I was thinking. the dogs lot in the modern world is not an easy one. It is an artificial Evolution. It is adapt or die out.

Bit like that in nature, happening all the time species dying out as the environment and availability of food etc change, the most adaptive survive and change!

If our dog breeds do not adapt to a more acceptable pet animal, acceptable in society, we may well find we have no choice, and society may decide we shouldn't have therm any more!!! A certain organisation PETA (I think it stands for People for the Ethical Treetment of Animals, but you will know as they are very active in US), has as it's aim the phaisng out of Pets!

Barbara,
You are absolutely correct about PETA & some of its members fanaticism. I don't say all...because there are certain degrees of opinions within. Seriously, I came across a brochure about 8 years back that condemned having pets as "artificially keeping animals dependent on humans". The brochure went on to say that someone who was truly believing of animal's rights to be free should "set their dogs/cats loose to enjoy life as the wild beast it desires to be."

Don't know about you, but if I do that to my dogs, they stay right by the door wanting to be let back into the warm artificial life that I provide. :D If I turn back on walks & they're off leash, within minutes they've noticed and race back to me.... rats, I've been trying so hard to make them "free" of me :D

toodles