My Tinkerbell is on heat again, I want her to have a litter. I also have a male (Tige), so what would you think is the problem??
Well Tige is slightly smaller (height) then she is and the last time Tinker was on heat they went at it day and night but no litter !! :(
It seems when he trys to mount her he either has not yet got the method or cant reach !!?? Even now to the point where she now seems to get so frustrated that she mounts him as if to show him what to do !! I dont know what I should do to ensure they tie .... Help ??? advice gratefully needed.

""so what would you think is the problem??"" errr before even reading the next line I would say everything !!!

You just don't take mate your pet bitch to your pet dog and hope for the best it is irresponsible. You don't just let dogs go at it all day and night and hope for the best.

Why do you want to breed My Tinkerbell for anyway?

Matings should be closely supervised! Could be that last time the dog was hurt whilst "going at it day and night". Are these two well suited in all respects for you to consider breeding them? Sadly there are a lot of poor specimens in this breed due to indiscriminate breeding, and I am sure you dont want to add to that number?

Thank you Blue !!  Rather then trying to criticise me, try offering advise. I am fully aware of the responsibility of breeding however I lack information. Did you not have a first time??
I believe in the natural process I dont want to farm out my bitch to a stud, it all seems to processed thus when deciding I wanted to breed the dogs which I have loved for a long time. I waited until I had the right enviroment, time, space and money to proceed. The pair of them are great together, both have loving personalities and tempermant. If I was not caring I would not seek advise, so if you can advise please do !!

My first litter was from my fully health screened bitch to a very exeprienced dog at the home of one of the Gurus of GSDs Nem Elliot & I held my bitch whilst the dog did the job all supervised by Nem

It wasn't until I had a health screened male some years later that I handled my own stud dog & then it was the help of an experienced breeder & her proven brood bitch. She also was available for any matings he had, she also helped with both my other stud dogs. Assisting a stud dog is a skilled job with some breeds especially small ones. My BC stud dog was a natural & after his first mating with a proven bitch he very quickly learnt how to handle his bitches so that they were willing to be mated & never needed any assistance other tha holding the bitch's collar at the crucial moment, on the other hand my GSDs were more hand willing to have help & GSD bitches can be awkward to deal with

There should really always be a minimum of two people presence at the mating & some of the bigger breeds need three(especially if the dogs fall asleep whilst tied as happened to two newfies I helped mate)

Criticise you, not you personally ,maybe your decision to breed you two pet dogs and leave them to get at it all day and night, yes. The injuries that can be caused this way are not mild I can assure you.  I really try to avoid these posts because people ask for advice and then don't like the truthful advice they get or what they don't want to hear ,  sometimes it is hard to when it is a breed I am fond of , if my comments offend it is because I feel strongly about the breed.  

You said , "I waited until I had the right enviroment, time, space and money to proceed. The pair of them are great together, both have loving personalities and tempermant"

This sadly doesn't make the perfect breeding pair at all. Most dogs of all breeds generally have good loving personalities and temperments.  There are so many westies out there who look nothing like the breed it is a shame.  When you use your dog at stud his personallity will change without a doubt.

"I believe in the natural process ",  Why do you want help then if they do it naturally and are meant to them they will. :-) that is not sarcasm but the truth. :-)

"I dont want to farm out my bitch to a stud"   No good breeder ever farms bitches out to stud, and to be honest the only time I hear people saying these things is if they are justifying using their own dogs as stud. To say something like that is very critical of good breeders.  Good breeders choose the most suitable , healthy , compatible dog there is and go visit at the right time and witness a natural mating with no expense spared. That is exactly what happens.

Being honest it is worse to try and mate to pet dogs, who may see each other as siblings. It is not uncommon for animals who live together as companions not to want to mate. 

"Did you not have a first time" , Yes I have only ever had a couple litters and that is only because I show my dogs and I felt to get the best puppy from a litter for the show ring I needed to breed the litter myself.  I personally would prefer not to.

I travelled over 1000 miles to what I felt was the suitable stud for my bitch, stayed away for 3-4 days. My bitches breeder mentored me all the way through the whole thing. I had someone in fact several people with 20 years plus experience on hand. I actually at the time had a lovely beautifully bred male dog I was showing out of 2 champions and I didn't use him at stud.  I didn't for many reasons, I didn't want to change his temprement and had no interest in using him at stud and still have never used him at stud, but more inportantly he wasn't the most compatible for my bitch. 

What I will tell you is my bitch had problems after she had the puppies and I had to get the vet out on 2 seperate occasions both times in the middle of the night with a final vet bill of about £500 just for the call outs. Add that to all the costs of the whelping equipment, travelling , stud fees.  Westies only have 3-4 puppies on average. Beleive me the puppy I kept was an expensive puppy.

With my second litter again about 500 miles away to the stud, the bitch had inertia during whelping we did luckily managed to get the puppies out but after 3 vets visits and again a huge vet bill .  Another expensive puppy..

A totally different view and something to consider is that all puppies are sold under the Sale of Goods Act so if they are "faulty" in anyway you are or can be liable for any costs incured.  This is not uncommon for buyers to take breeders to court.

Good luck. 

Thank you for your comments.........I was looking for advice !! ?? If I felt my Westies were not suited or there was a problem I would not allow them to mate !!!  We do supervise however all the books and information does not lend to a novice like myself.
So if anyone can advise I would be gratefull, I dont want either dog hurt and thought it was natural to leave them to it. I have longed for my first litter and love my dogs, having now aqquired the abilty to have them I mated I need help !!

It would be best to separate them as soon as your bitch comes into season until the correct day for mating, then introduce them as you would if you were taking her to an outside stud. Are both dog and bitch maidens? Have you attended a mating before? If not you may well need to get assistance from a person who is experienced in handling matings - as you've discovered, it's not always the straightforward process one imagines! If your dog is small then he may need a platform to raise him, and you bitch held firmly so she can't get too far away from it.
:)

Jeangenie, thanks you for your advise. Yes both dogs are Virgins/Maidens !!  ......... I have tried keeping them apart if not just to give them a breather however both dogs start whining !!! They dont like being apart ever, the other day because she was on heat only he went for a walkies she whinned like never before !!
Sadly I cannot be entirely sure as to when she came into season and can only say when he first started to notice her she was having none of it !  Now she seems eager.
Trouble is when he does mount her he seems lacking in getting in there (excuse terms) and seems to run out of energy too quickly. I also noted that he does not always have a fully extended penis.
As mentioned in my plea , she tends to get frustrated and starts to show him what to do , it seems. And they chase each other around as if playing !!
I idea of holding them together seems a little weird !!?   ..... I will try and see if I can use the platform idea ...thanks.:)

Have you ever attended a mating? (I only ask because I don't want to seem like I'm telling you stuff you already know!) But it is normal for the bitch to be firmly held by her collar during the mating, the turn and the tie to prevent injury to both dog and bitch. Also with maidens it is common for them not to know exactly what to do, so you may need someone to manually guide the dog's penis towards the bitch's vulva and hold him there till the tie has occurred. (Yes, it can be very 'hands-on!)

Breeding a maiden bitch & dog is fraught with danger, neither knows exactly want to or expect & you as a novice owner really should seek guidenace from an exeprienced stud dog owner of your breed hands on & not over the "net"ie they need to be there to assist the dog.

If your dogs are well suited I am surprised that you dog is smaller than your bitch it should be the other way round. I know very experienced Westie breeders(well one now as one of them has passed away) & others who have bred them in the past & on the whole they would never mate a maiden dog to a maiden bitch.

Bitches can be very awkward  at first matings which is why they need an exeprienced stud who knows what is going on & can deal with an inexperienced bitch, not being put off by her responses to him.

Maiden dogs also need an exeprienced bitch so his first mating will not be flustrating & so that he does not get put off.

Leaving them to get on with it means you may come back to find a dead dog or an injured dog & bitch. . Domesticated dogs are a mile away from wild dogs & even then it tends to be a younger inexperienced Alpha Male & mature Alpha bitch that breed for a first time as the alpha bitch is usually the only one to have seasons

I do get worried by the number of people who want to breed for the experience of having a litter & not for the betterment of the breed both health & type wise. No dog or bitch need to be bred from & basically what they have never had they never miss. breeding your dog to your bitch will change his outlook on life, he will know what a bitch's scent is like when she is ready to mate & more that often will follow up on such scent outside the home & if not correctly separated when your bitch is in season he will want to mate her every season afterwards & start bitching on walks as well

Forgot to say you should always talk to the bitches breeder also she knows the lines better than anyone.

Hi, can I ask what age is your dog and bitch?, Are they K.C. registered? What lines are in their pedigree are they compatable with each other,  are you aware that there is an eye problem under investigation with westies, have you had them both eye tested..   I would advise that you join the breed club ( you dont need to show to be a member) nearest to you, find out more about westies, also about breeding, its not as easy as it sounds, some westies need a c. section and you can lose both the bitch and puppies, buy the Book of the Bitch by Gwen Bailey, its full of information, and yes, I do agree you have to start somewhere, but I would use a proven stud dog with an excellent pedigree, to improve on what you have,on a maiden bitch, for a first litter, the best person to ask for advise is the breeder of either your bitch or dog, if they are reputable breeders they will give you all the help you need. If either Blue or myself knew "what lines of pedigree you have" whether they are what we call "pet lines" or excellent pedigrees with loads of champions and off good proven lines. Then either of us could probably recommend a breeder, or stud dog owner to go to for more advice, personally I would wait until you have done all these checks, and had both eye tested before considering mating this time around. Hope this helps you.

Hi there !  Thank you for your comments. Neither dogs are K.C reg both were bought as pets about eight months apart. The bitch does not have any pedigree paperwork but the dog does. Registration No. AD00982102 of breeder. I am trying to contact the breeder to seek further advise.
Both dogs have been checked and no problems were established thankfully !!

Ok so you want to breed your dogs.

What are your reasons for doing this? Exactly how old are both your dogs?

I am not against you breeding your dogs, you will do exactly as you wish dispite other people attempts to stop you from doing this.  Get yourself a copy of the "Book of the Bitch" read it back to front then please decide what to do before breeding from your dogs. :)

If your bitch has no paperwork I would be extremely reluctant to breed from her at all, because you have no way of tracing her background to learn of any hereditary conditions her ancestors may have suffered from. Likewise with the dog's pedigree - it may be he isn't registered because his breeder knew he had too many faults to be a useful stud dog, but would still make a lovely pet.

Have you read the first post on the Breeding forum of this site? It explains many of the possible results from using a dog at stud.

Hello again .......  I searched high and low to find the paperwork for my dogs.....and finally I did .... having moved early in the year you be surprised how how stuff gets mis-placed.

Anyway ..... the details I have for my bitch are..... Dam Owner >Mrs Owen ,Wawnfawr, Glynarthen, Llandysul, SA44 6PP ... the paperwork describes her family back to her great G/parents. Her Dams name was 'Molly's White Fortune' and  her sire was 'Llan Vince'

The details for my stud are .... Owner >Mr G Jones, 2 Westfield Walk, Waltham cross, Hertfordshire, EN8 7EZ .... the certicate I have describes Dam as Dilly Lilly, Reg no.Z0378401Z01 and the Sire as Mighty Max Reg no. AA04141603

I am trying to contact both breeders with no success as the details are a couple of years old it may well be out of date :(

So can anyone tell me if these details are worth anything to trace my dogs suitabilty ???

I'm so sorry.  Neither breeder has an affix (trademark to link their breeding) and without KC registration you have no way of tracing their ancestors.  Typical puppy farm breeding! :rolleyes:
These people have bred pups to sell to unsuspecting, kind hearted folk like you.  They weren't at all concerned what you were going to do with these pups so long as you paid your money!:(  In my grooming parlour I saw it all the time, hence my (maybe curt but true) remark of "the only resemblance to a Westie is that it's white, with four legs a head and a tail!"
If you really care about Westies, please have these 2 neutered, love them for the little people they are, and join a breed club and start learning what they are all about.
I really am sorry but I would never encourage you to breed from either of these, or recommend that anyone looking for a pet bought one of the pups produced from them.

I'm sorry but I won't be offering any words of encouragement because your comments show that you don't have even the most basic knowledge of your breed or breeding.  You are trying to "produce puppies" not breed quality puppies that will be an asset to their new pet homes.  You have no knowledge of their ancestors, and so families looking for a Westie could buy a pup that will grow as big as a Cocker!
You say that your dogs have been checked - for what?  To say that they are white and have a head, four legs and a tail and are breathing?
I have no doubt that you love your dogs, but that it not a good enough reason to justify producing pups from them. :(

In my last post, I was trying to give guidance, perhaps clumsily. Before even considering mating your dog and bitch you should consider whether they are well suited both physically and by blood lines. You should also check their registrations and any contracts you signed when buying them as puppies - many breeders place restrictions on breeding when they sell their puppies. Leaving them to it is not the way to get successful matings - if you intend to mate you should know EXACTLY when your bitch comes into season and they should be separated the whole time apart from the time they have fully supervised matings. As for your dog whining - this is part and parcel of keeping entire dogs and bitches - the whining doesnt stop after the mating - it has to be endured for the whole season, every seson, and is worse when once you have a dog that has been used. 

If your bitch does not have any paperwork, how do you know they are not closely related? They could have the same father.

Hmmmmm !!  Now I am getting confused if not scared !! .... The bitch was purchased at a separate breeder and months apart. I am having problems contacting the breeder of the bitch. I never sort the paperwork as I did not intend showing or doing this as a business.
I am concerned that it will change their personalities. The very reason I bought two Westies was to eventually breed them. I didnt select them for their champion lines but purely on their character and look as loving pets, which they certainly are. The thought of losing either my bitch or any possible litter would be unthinkable.
I shall keep the dogs separate until I find the hands on support and if that means until the next season, so be it. I am however still determined to eventually have a litter. 

If you are determined to breed from your dogs as stated please buy a copy of "The Book Of The Bitch" read, read, and read MORE before deciding to breed from them.

Even though your bitch was brought from a seperate breeder, it does not mean that your dogs could not be related, they still could, what health tests have your dogs had? Both of them?

As has been said, people travel the length and breadth of the country to use the right stud dog. It's very possible that the breeders of your dog and your bitch (if aiming to breed quality puppies) have done the same and used the same stud dog. Without paperwork you won't know.

Pondering !!!  with all this information now ....the worry is........ could is have fallen already??  and all the potentail problems that everyone on here is spelling out to me could happen !!  I dont think they tied but reading between the lines they dont have to tie in order to have a litter !!  Whilst I am fairly sure they are not related and both dogs are healthy should I pay a visit to the vets?? or is it too early ?

Brilliant.  You will find a lot of experience and help on this board if you try to produce healthy happy pups.  You can't possibly do this with an unpapered bitch.
If you read up (there's loads of information in the archives if you search) you may well find that it's best to love the two you have as companions and think about buying a quality bitch once you are more involved with the breed.

Okay Okay !!  I get the point .....sadly !!  I do love my dogs and wanted a litter of my own...  maybe a dream !! Ultimately they are my pets who give us all a lot of joy and love. I thought (wrongly it seems) that having a litter of the breed I love would give me a sense of further joy and satisfaction. But all indications are that cant be or at the least could cause further heartache.
Having lost my first bitch (Charlie ) some 2 years ago through old age I planned to ensure my life always had a westie in it, the plan was to breed them from home as opposed to searching and buying again.
Thank you all for your comments ...... I have listened ........ now I have to see out the season and perhaps consider neutering them :(

Look we all have to start somewhere, if it is your wish to breed from your dogs, go out and buy a puppy from a reputable breeder whose dogs have all the relevent health tests for their breed. 
Go to someone who will be your Mentor, someone who will be there to give you all the advice and back up that you need regarding breeding from your dogs.
If it is done right no-one is against anyone breeding from their dogs :) Good Luck :)

happyrdm, I truly believe that fate has saved you more than a few heartaches!  Count your blessings that your dogs haven't mated.
If you want to learn more about your beloved breed, contact a Club Secretary near you and go along to a couple of club shows.  You'll see that Westies, although at first glance look very similar, when you get your eye in, they do, in fact, all look VERY different!
Maybe you could get to know a local breeder?  Maybe they would let you watch when their next bitch is mated?  Maybe, if they get to know you over a period of time, they would let you be there when the bitched whelped?  Maybe they would help you buy a quality bitch, rear her and mentor you through perhaps breeding your first litter?
Not what you came here to hear, but food for thought eh?

Ditto Val and Jeanjeanie. :-))

It takes shock reality sometimes to bring home the responsibility involved.

Since Friday last I have heard of a bitch killing her puppies, a bitch dying leaving 2 puppies, and a bitch having 6 live puppies and everyone of them dying. It scares the poops out of me when I hear this but so important for us to know it happens.

BFN

OMG Blue...........now I'm more paranoid than before

Hi Happyrdm

If you do have your dogs neutered don't be sad bitches in my experience can be happier spayed no risk of pyrometra for one & what your dog has never had he will never miss. They are super little dogs that make excellent pets & companions

Enjoy your westies & if you do want to breed find the best bitch you can from healthy stock & take advice from her breeder when the time comes to breed

I don't breed anymore & keep only dogs from choice(my spayed GSD bitch is a rescue)& when I want another puppy I have the freedom to choose & no worries about finding homes for the rest

I'm sure members of one of the breed clubs listed at the bottom of the WHWT Breed Standard would make you welcome and be happy to advise you. Good luck!
:)

I am so pleased that you have listened to the advice here. Dont despair, either - many of us came into our chosen breed from the love of our pets and after a lot of study went into breeding. Many of us also still have our original much loved pet who we dont breed from and another good bitch from a good helpful breeder who became mentor and advisor and helper throughout the production of our first litter. With patience and dedication I am sure you will breed a litter in the future to be proud of. Get to shows and see some Westie classes and after a few visits you will know a quality dog and learn what you want to aim for in your puppies. Good Luck.

LOL @ Blue :D

If it doesn't 'scare the poops out of you' then you don't really know enough about it to breed dogs IMHO ;)  :D :D  

Its just as important to know everything that could go wrong as it is to know about how it should go :D

It often worries me that financially people are not prepared also , in my breed were litters are generally 3-4 puppies if something goes wrong how do they manage.   Do they wait and hope that they don't need to pay for a section , emergency treatment etc. It probably brings them down to earth with a bang. :-)) a big one ;-)

BFN

I found that if all goes well, no emergencies etc, basic litter costs are in excess of £1200 (not counting time etc). Some of that can be recouped from puppy sales, but not all.

My very first litter cost us £1300 over one weekend when mum went down with eclampsia.............and that didn't include any of the other vet bills or feeding, so you do need to be able to cope with the expense as well as the time and energy!

Blimey !!!  I really did open a can of worms here..... but I have learnt a lot ... more then I thought possible. I am still concerned that this information was not given to me when buying the dogs as puppies. As both breeders knew my intentions, whilst they did say its a lot of time and energy and money.....none mentioned problems as mentioned over the course of today. But better late then never !!

The whinning still continues ......... my dog seems very unhappy about being kept separate from his mate. Even on a short stroll down the garden he looks back to seek his mate :(
The bitch seems restless and watches him through the back door ..pacing the room and looking to me in puzzlement....

Is there a doggie toy to satisfy ??  ...(Joke) .....  :)))   A week to go !!!

Hello there.
I do not want to critisize but if you bought a non registered bitch from a breeder, then in all honesty that breeder did not give a monkeys who bought them or what their intentions were, even  registered Westies are two a penny from puppy farms and back street breeders, they are up with the most bred dogs in this country.  Many have pink feet and itchy this and that, many are snappy and short tempered (not saying yours are) all of which should be avoided when breeding.  You have been given excellent advice by the people on here, but in the long run getting your bitch spayed will be better for her (should she develop mammary tumours, pyometra, both of which kill) and there really isnt a need to have your male neutered unless he causes you a problem.
Dawn.

Just posted some details of my dogs history ....  for advise..........My dogs are health checked and neither have pink pads or any symtoms you described. Furthermore I can assure you it did not cost me pennies for both my bitch or dog, I searched high and low and travelled miles to find them.

"Two a penny" as in there are a LOT around.  The breeding is typical "pet" breeding.  Neither of the breeders appear to have an affix, or a kennel name to prefix their dogs names.  A bit like Ben mated to Sally!  No offence intended there, it just appears a typical pet type situation where conformation and breed characteristics have not been considered, the very fact you say you paid a fair amount does correlate with that.  The first names you read out are WELSH!  No disrespect for Wales, I love it, but they are very well known for puppy faming, and the mass production of this type of dog purely to supply a pet market.  Just my opinion, I hope things turn out well for you and your dogs.
Dawn.

Looks very much like pet breeders really. 

One obvious thing that stands out to me is that most genuine breed enthusiasts would not sell dogs for breeding. Infact most I know endorse the puppies so they can't be bred from. If they get enquires which suggests the buyer is looking for something to breed from then the breeder generally declines to sell a puppy to that person.  Not always but in most cases good breeders prefer the good pet home option where breeding is not a consideration.

It may be worthwhile putting him in kennels until your bitches season has finished, or,  unfortunatly the whining is something that you are going to have to put up with while shes on heat.

Hence the reason why many reputable breeders with bitches do not own stud dogs :)

Hi, as has been asked a few times,can you please let us know "specifically" what tests you had performed on your dogS.No offence,but judging by your lack of responce it doesnt look good :(
'

Tests were KC/BVA Schemes ...........also the health checks only revealed to the vet that the dog needed to clean his teeth more. He was aware we wanted to have a litter from them.

"Tests were KC/BVA Schemes ..........." That means there were no tests as this is on all paperwork, the ........... is the space for the test details.

Unfortunatly there are no inforced tests just now with WHWTs but me telling you think is not as a encouragement to breed the dogs , quite the opposite , I think they should remain as pets and never be bred from.

Eye tests are regularly carried out by breeders and there are several other know health problems that WHWTs can  be more prone to but that is what you have to investigate and learn about before breeding.   You must find out the lines behind breeding dogs to be sure that they are healthy.

Thanks for your remarks .......I hope that my vet has examined my dogs to cover all the problems you mention, I will bring them to his attention on my next visit. I remain hopefull my dogs are healthy and will live a long and happy life. I have already been convinced on here not to breed through my current dogs....your comments only serve to fuel my anger at people who take advantage of mugs like me !! :( 
I will devote time to studying the breed in far better detail so as to one day become a breeder..... I grew up with dogs and cats and I find them a comfort and companionship which I love.
I am really happy I found this site to debate my aims, all be it at the start I got rather bewildered by some of the advise or lack of.

hi!
i was wondering if there are any westie breeders on her that could advise happyrdm ??????
what are the health checks for westies?
i think as a breed there are quite alot of poorly bred ones out there,loads around here! & i hate to see them when they are pink from itching so much

michelle,

I have just told him that sadly there are no health checks that are required just now.  There are on going ivestigations into eye problems, Pyruvate kinase deficiency,Globoid Cell Leukodystrophy by the AHT,  There is a also studies in the states for some lung problems that affect quite a lot of older westies. The eyes tests are done at the breeders choice just now. A lot are doing them for the benefit of their line.

A lot of the health issues that affect westies can be traced through lines but  there are also environmental things that affect them such as diet, how you keep you westie in general. etc

Problem we have is they are a small breed and still very popular so it makes them very popular with the puppy farmers, backyard breeders.   Thing is I can't see the cycle breaking. Westies can often require c-sections, westies more like the standard are often smaller than a lot of the pet (not so well bred) ones we see walking the streets.

I have read comments once on a message board  that the poster was happy to keep the bigger westies albeit a lot bigger than the breed standard as she thought she got more puppies and no c-sections :-((

Westies have only 3-4 puppies on average so good breeders will never get rich from breeding them but not so good breeders knowning there is a demand for them churn them out and spend no money , no time and using any 2 breeding dogs regardless of their health.

People have to wait on well bred puppies from good breeders ( like a lot of breeds) but because they have so few puppies they have to sometimes wait longer, people are impulsive and then often buy from someone who has puppies sitting there ready most often not the best place to buy a westie pup..

It is a breed, sadly along with a few others that has been hit badly but the unscrupulous breeders who think pounds are more important.