Hi,

We have a 7 1/2 month old male Dobermann who we're really struggling with health wise. When we first got him he was on Nutro large breed puppy and his poos were always fine. When he got a little older we started introducing the odd dog treat but almost everything seemed to make him do what can only be described as cow pats! He'd often poo twice in one go..one would be totally normal and the other mucus/cow pat.

We experimented with different treats and eventually we had his poos all normal on his nutro food, nutro puppy biscuits and james well-beloved biscuits. But then at just under 6 months he became terribly ill. It started on a Monday night with blood in his vomit and we phoned the emergency vet who said to keep a watch on him and to phone back if it progressed. He slept through the night but in the morning he had diarrhoea that was literally all just water and blood..not solid at all..and it would not stop coming. We took a sample (knew keeping those freebie spoons you get with medicines would come in useful one day!) before going straight to the vets. We've been going to the same vets for 15 years and have not had a problem with them before but the vet we saw this time made a huge error. He brushed it off as a run of the mill stomach bug and threw the sample in the rubbish bin!!! He sent us home with just a sachet of food replacement stuff to dissolve in his water. He went downhill rapidly during the night and on the Wednesday we took him back in. He was admitted and stayed there on a drip for 4 days :-( We went to see him on the Friday. By this time he'd been refusing to eat or drink since the Monday and they said that what was coming out was more than what they were able to put in through the drip. It was so scary - we thought that was it, but Friday evening he took some chicken from me and by the Saturday had improved enough to come home :-)

The sample they took (too late) came back negative for bugs/bacterias etc, but they concluded that it probably was most likely a very nasty bug that triggered off an underlying condition to epic proportions, such as inflammatory bowel disease/colitis. He was prescribed a veterinary intestinal food with probiotics that he was on for a few weeks and then we gradually weaned him back on to nutro and then re-introduced plain boiled chicken fillets chopped up for his training treats. He seemed to be fine and happy again, although we were getting the odd cow pat here and there for no apparant reason.

Then last week he was sick and started pooing mucus and blood again so back to the vets, back on antibiotics and anti-inflammatories, and the intestinal food. He'd been wormed the week before (we hadn't noticed any link with worming previously) and had also had some carrot, and chomped on a bit of stinky old decaying grass cuttings he'd found! So we don't know if it might have been one of those things that's triggered off his colitis again..?

We're really struggling with his weight. He was lanky to begin with and then after having lost 7 or 8 lbs during the first bad bout he was just beginning to fill out, but now he's lost weight again. It's almost at the point where I feel embarrassed that people are going think he is being starved, because you can now see his ribs so clearly. When I did a search on here I read something about a high calorie oil being suggested to get weight back on, but I don't remember the name now...or if it would be suitable in his case..? I also read that grains are best avoided for dogs with colitis. His nutro has wheat in and although he seems to be ok on nutro 99% of the time, could it be that behind the scenes it isn't actually doing his condition any favours in the long run..?

Very confused about what to do. Can colitis be triggered off by food allergies..so maybe a food allergy test might help..? I know there are some hypo-allergenic foods around so maybe one of those might be an idea. I don't know. He loves his nutro and was doing well on it until this all kicked in, and seems to be ok on it 99% of the time when just having nutro and chicken for treats. But if we have to change it, then what might be a food most similar to it in terms of taste, quality and nutritional values (he's on the large breed variety).

Sorry for such a long post! Is anyone still reading? :-o I just don't know where we're going with all this.

Hi

Sorry to hear about your Dobermann - there are many things that could be causing his problems but I would be inclined to ask your vet to check him out for pancreatic insufficiency (EPI) as your problems sound similar to another Dobe I know.

Thanks, I've been browsing the net to see what conditions his symptoms seem to be related to and that isn't one I've yet come across, so I'll definitely keep that in mind. We've always considered our vets to be very good, but the other day the vet we saw did mention about referring him to a specialist so I think this is all beginning to go over their heads.

hiya zarah,

my sister was in an almost identical position as you with one of her boxers-it started about 6 months ago with all the same symptoms you said.....vomiting blood, passing blood, mucus like stools.....

he has colitis which is triggered by food intolerances. After weeks of back and forth to the vets, starving then feeding bland food, vets, starving etc, he had an allergy test. Turns out hes intolerant to most things in pet food! Rice, wheat, lamb, soya, dairy, potato and a few other things i can't remember! He's now on Royal Canin prescription diet and seems fine. While he was ill though, he dropped loads in weight, and sounded much like your dobe (skinny and ribby, and he lost all coat condition too....was quite depressed, dehydrated etc-he too had to be taken in and put on a drip), and its only just started to go back on.

i may be tempted to see what your vet thinks about allergy testing? If its something like rice that he's allergic to, and thats whats triggering his colitis, it would make finding a food a little more difficult as most complete foods have this in. Wafcol do a potato based range though. It may be intermittent because allergic reactions aren't necessaryily immediate. In this boxers case, it is delayed reaction depending on what he's eaten that he shouldn't (which now is pretty much never, unless he managed to find a bit of the other dogs' Burns!). It tends to be a few days if not longer down the line before he shows any signs. As for the other boxer who also has allergies, he reacts immediately.

i would be inclined to find out whats causing the colitis, and if it is food, remove it from the diet. By taking it out and replacing it with a digestible quality food, you shouldn't need to add any extra oils etc to add weight to the dog as gradually your boy will gain weight at a slower rate, which i think would be better for him as he's only a baby!

mojo x

Hi munkeemojo,

Sorry to hear about your sister's Boxer. It does sound very similar. I'm hoping the poor boy's going to get a bit of a longer break this time before it kicks off again! I'm thinking an allergy test should be our next port of call. Before this latest episode we were just introducing one thing a week and seeing what happened, but of course being a pup he has his nose on the ground all the time and has picked up bits of dirt and god knows what over the field before you can stop him and then it just gets all confused about what has caused what. In the past with the Nutro we have had a couple of weeks clear with all normal poos. Do you think that means that he is ok with Nutro?

The food he's on at the moment is Royal Canin prescription diet (the intestinal one). It does seem to calm down his intestines and the blood, mucus, and straining stops but we never seem to get normal poos on it until we start re-introducing the Nutro back in. It's very strange. We're on day 4 now of gradually mixing Nutro back in and tonight he produced a much nicer poo!

I hope we sort it out soon. He just seems to have been stuck at the same weight for so long now with all the losing and gaining he's been doing, and it's so obvious in short-haired dogs. No big fluffy coat to hide under!

I'll keep you updated :)

Just thought I would pass this on. A friend of mine has got a collie with severe colitis, thought to have been triggered by his booster vaccine. He was just the same as your Dobe. She put him on Burns, I think it was the Extra, and he has been fine since. She only ever gives him occassional Burns Kelties as treats and he has bio yogurt or cottage cheese on his dinner sometimes. The trouble with colitis is, it's really difficult to determine what the trigger is, so Burns may be no help to your dog at all, but as it worked with this collie, it might be worth a try. Good luck.

And remember, your dog may look really skinny, but most dogs who look 'normal' are actually heavier than they should be, and for a large breed like yours, being on the thin side now will be healthier for him as he gets older. I know it's worrying when they are skinny, but I'm sure he will be fine. Better too thin than too fat!

Best wishes, Claire

Hi Zarah,

Sorry to hear your lad has been so poorly.  We had a dog who suffered with colitis, he actually belonged to my brother in law, who passed away and we took his dogs in...the lad that had colitis was 14 when he came to us, and we only had him for a few months until he sadly passed away.  We tried numerous things, and the only thing that worked for him was Chappie (meat) We couldn't even add mixer to it, as this caused him terrible problems.
I've been reading this thread with interest, and truly hope that you manage to get your boy sorted out.

Best wishes,
Lisa

PS, that oil you mentioned....does anybody know the name of it?  Cheers

Hi Lisa,

Sorry to hear about the dog you took in passing away. It's really sad isn't it. We lost our other dog not very long ago, just before we got this pup.

The first Dobermann we ever had had a bit of a funny tummy when she was younger (when she got older she developed a cast iron gut and would eat anything and everything no problem if she got her chompers on it!). She was on tripe when we got her, but then ate Chappie for most of her life and really thrived on it. She lived to 13 and was pretty much never ill until she got cancer and had to be pts. I know back then vets etc really raved about Chappie, but am not sure about how it compares to the newer foods now..?

Thanks for the kind words. I'll keep you all updated!

We did actually try him on Burns before any of the colitis symptoms, when we were still considering whether we were going to keep him on Nutro. We went by all the usual changeover guidelines...adding a little bit more of the new food each day for about 10 days, but his poos became really loose. We kept him on it for a couple of weeks to see if it was just his system adjusting, but his toilet continued like that and his coat lost condition, so we switched him back to Nutro. Thanks for the suggestion anyway :-)

You're right about it being better for them to be too thin than too fat. I know of some puppies his age whose owners have been told to put them on a "diet" (for want of a better word) already because there's too much pressure being put on their joints. People always comment on how slim he is, but I'm sure all of the big roly poly chunky puppies he's being compared to are a bit on the fat side!

Colitis is a condition rather than a specific disease which can be a symptom of or be caused by a variety of things; SIBO, food allergy, yeast overgrowth, food intolerance, auto immune disease etc etc etc

This site: http://www.bowchow.com/specific.html

will help you.

If the dog were mine I would have it allergy tested and start a process of elimination before experimenting wildly with the diet.  In some cases a biopsy may be recommended.

If the cause is multi factorial or cannot be found then careful management is required using some of the suggestions oulined in the above link.

HTH

check out tree barks powder at dorwest herbs  www.dorwest.com they reccomend it for the symptoms you describe.

I would also like to know the name of the oil,could it be flaxseed oil?

good luck :)

christine

Thanks for that - I'll look into it :)

I seem to have people guessing with the oil thing :-D I thought I'd jotted the name down somewhere after reading it but can't find it anywhere! I'll let you know if I come across it again.

Thanks for the link tohme. I'll have a read when I've finished here.

We're going to ask our vets for an allergy test. At the moment we are trying to keep him on just Nutro and boiled chicken chopped up for training treats. Before this last bout we were trying to introduce just one new thing a week, although it is difficult to be certain that he is only eating solely what we are giving him as his nose is on the ground the majority of the time round the field and other dog walkers of course take their dog's treats round there (had to retrieve half of one of those munchy roll sticks from his mouth the other day!).

I feel for you as my dog had exactly the same problems up and down the vets anti inflamm antibiotics again and again tried all types of food to no avail even a food the vet suggested which is for dogs with colitis didnt work and now he is settled on nature diet and everything looks good weight is maintained and poos are frim so thank god for that but he is not allowed any treats especially rawhide

It sounds like my dog has these symtoms apart from the vomiting and he acts normal playing etc he did lose weight but he now weighs 28kg but he is still on chicken& rice, when i try changing back to normal food (burns) his stools start off ok then just get runny with mucus and sometimes blood not a lot.At the moment i'm waiting for the results of a stool sample but i am really worried.

My Westie was diagnosed with Colitis 18 months ago he was put on salazopyrin and a Hills prescription food was given to him, however the food was of no use what so ever. After reading this forum I put him on Naturediet Lite and it cured him straight away and now he is even allowed a bonio now and again and it doesn't affect him. I cannot stress to you how good this food is it cured my dog and improved to condition of his coat. Its about 63p a pack you can get it from Pets at Home.

I don't know what to do yet because he has'nt be diagnosed with anything, i'm still waiting for the results of his stool sample.

These prescriptions foods don't sound like they work particularly well I have to say!

I've read really positive things about Naturediet here, and I've just found out through their website that our local pet supermarket stocks it (I don't think we have a Pets at Home here, but we do have a Partners Pets Supermarket), so it would be one that we would really consider if/when we decide to change his food, once we have a clearer idea of what is going on with him of course.

Same here (apart from the time he had to be admitted to the vets, but that was thought to be a very nasty bug in conjunction with the colitis). Other than that he always has an appetite, wants to bound around and play all the time, and hardly ever sleeps (incase he misses anything I guess :-D). I imagine he must be in pain with the straining and bleeding but other than being very skinny you really wouldn't think there was anything wrong with him if you didn't see his poos.

I'd be really interested to know what the results of the stool sample are, if you can update when you know them :-)

Hi happygirl,

Sorry to hear your pooch had the same problems. I've seen Naturediet mentioned a lot in relation to colitis so that would be one that I would definitely consider if we did conclude that Nutro is not as suited to him as we previously thought. We've had 2 dogs before this one who used to eat our scraps and have treats so it's a little bit sad not being able to give him anything, especially when you can see two big eyes gazing at you out of the corner of your eye as you eat!

Well, now for a ridiculous update. Got absolutely nowhere with the vets today. Asked if our Dobe could be allergy tested, explaining how

1) We are struggling with the 'introducing one new thing a week idea' as he is constantly putting stuff in his mouth (I've had to retrieve other dog's treats from his mouth round the field several times and a couple of days ago he got old of some tin foil round there that had contained god knows what. Also pavement walking, he is so quick that before now he's lunged at whatever it is he's spotted and swallowed it before I've barely had time to react) so we cannot be 100% certain all of the time of what exactly he's eating.

2) About how we are also now questioning the Nutro. Is it possible that he could have become intolerant to an ingredient in it after eating it up until now from when he was weaned? The reason I ask is that he poos so many times a day on it now, whereas he didn't used to. The other day we had 7 poos and I also had to let him out during the night to go again. If that is because of the Nutro is doesn't seem to be affecting him as much as other foods/treats do in that the poos aren't always very well formed, but there's no blood or mucus.

3) For our own sanity and to at least try to have some control over this, we would like to know his triggers so that even if he does do a funny poo we can be sure that it is nothing that we have given him at home.

The reply we got? That they don't do allergy testing! I was gobsmacked. Instead he suggested we continue with introducing one food a week, and keep him on a lead and muzzled on walks (that's a joke in itself. He goes totally nutty round the field and really lets off steam, plus he has a good play with other dogs). Even if we decided to introduce just 5 new foods/treats that's 5 weeks on the lead and muzzled! What do I do now? I thought allergy testing was a routine and common thing. Can you have your pet allergy tested outside of your vets?

Hi Zarah

Half way though reading your email I was going to suggest that you muzzle him, why though, does your vet suggest keeping him on the lead unless the running around he is doing "loosens him up" which occasionly  happens.

Exactly what has your vet tested for - campobylactor (I can never remember the exact spelling of this one), EPI, etc etc?

Allergy testing is done by an outside Lab and the blood whatever is sent there.

If you are getting fed up/nowhere with your vet why not try the raw feeding route?  Dogs can be fed chicken frames/wings/backs for a couple of weeks with nothing else added and this is often a recommended way when first changing to raw.  At least this way you will know if raw chicken affects him and if it is EPI then the fat content in the backs will definitely do so.

BTW - saw a different vet for Rio's check up yesterday as main one was doing an emergency op. and although she was surprised to hear I was not feeding the cans of food that they sell, she asked what I was giving him (pureed eggs, liver, chicken flesh and milk etc) and commented to the effect that that was probably better for him, he was recovering well on it and to carry on  :)  )

Hi Kerioak,

Sorry for taking so long to get back to this. We've had one disaster after another here - blocked drains bubbling over into the garden, flooded downstairs when the water softener went berserk during the night (not related to the drain incident thankfully :D), a break in at my dad's workshop, and I've just found out that I have an infection under 3 teeth, one of which is a crown and another a deep root filling, so I've been refered to hospital for major treatment - UGH!

On a better note, Talli just passed his Good Citizen Bronze exam this evening. I'm so proud! :)

Back to the message - you were right, I confused the thing about muzzling/keeping him on the lead. The vet first suggested keeping him on the lead and then when I mentioned about him lunging at anything and everything that looks remotely edible, he then suggested muzzling him...so yes, I could then take him of the lead.

A stool sample was sent off during his stay at the vets. I don't remember the names of what it was tested for, but we get print outs of his treatment so we know what we're claiming for when it comes to insurance and I've looked at that but it just says routine + campylobacter. No blood sample has been sent off (is that how they would test for EPI?). I do feel as if we're getting nowhere...the vets seem to be of the opinion that we should be able to control whatever this is with diet - would be nice to know what exactly it is that we're dealing with though!

I did read up on raw feeding, but with only being able to introduce one new food item to him a week I'm worried that he's not going to get a balanced diet for quite a while. I'm also not sure that I'm quite well equipped enough yet to answer the barrage of questions/comments that will no doubt be thrown at me by our vet! (our vet is a bit of a recently graduated know-it-all - the one you saw with Rio sounds much nicer :D). I know it's my dog, and I can feed it however I like and all (:D) but I'd feel more confident if I were able to really back up what I'm doing.

We did speak to someone at out local pet supermarket who has always been really helpful and will actually tell you if she thinks something you are about to buy is not suitable, rather than try to sell you every item in the shop...and she mentioned Naturediet, Wafcol, and also said that she has heard from alot of customers that they've had good results with Nutro lamb and rice (I haven't really seen that mentioned here though) when it comes to colitis, allergies etc so we're considering that. I think at the moment it's going to be between Naturediet or Nutro..

Zarah I read your post with great interest because nearly everything your describing has happened to my cocker spaniel scoobie who is 5 years old he has been recently diagnosed with EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency) which means that his pancreas isn't functioning like it used to and he wasn't absorbing the nutrients he was doing numerous amounts of poos and like your Dobe I was getting up several times during the night he was also eating his own poo due to ravenous hunger (the only way I could stop him eating it was by picking it up the second he'd done it) Scoobie like your dog was scavenging big time I would advise you to go back to your vet with a sample of poo and ask them to test his blood as well (they should be testing for Trypsine levels) please don't be fobbed off by your vet are your Dobes poos foul smelling and a strange grey in colour and heaps of it? Scoobie has been given pancreatic enzymes that I have to add to each meal he's been having this for a week now and is gaining weight he is also on Hills ID (prescription food) which is very expensive but until I stabilise him I shall continue with this for a while longer I used to feed him raw so this is a big shock in every sense please keep me posted
and take care
Edith

Hi Edith,

Thanks for replying. Sorry to hear about Scoobie, but it must be a relief to have a diagnosis. A poo sample was tested, but I'm not sure exactly what for (I know I should definitely find that out). The need to poo during the night seems to have stopped for the time being, but he still goes alot during the day. They've never been grey though - they seem to go from normal brown colour to a yellowy, and are sometimes kind of thin and long like a cat poo (sorry for the graphic description!). I think the smell is just normal poo smell..sometimes they don't seem to smell at all. Sometimes he strains alot, but almost nothing comes out (is that a syptom of EPI as well as of colitis?). It's all very confusing.

I hope Scoobie is doing well :)

I find it really bizarre that they don't do allergy tests. My Westie was tested and the pet insurance paid it was about £500 I think. Your dogs condition really does sound like Colitis. I just put my dog straight onto Naturediet without even introducing it gradually as he was suffering from an attack anyway and it did literally cure him in 2 days. My dogs condition was caused by him being a rescue dog and being fed scraps all his life.

Hi westielover2,

Thanks for your msg. I thought the "no allergy testing" was totally bizarre too! It would be so much easier, if this is colitis triggered by food allergies, if we knew what foods to avoid rather than having to introduce one new thing a week and make sure he doesn't eat a single morsel of anything else new. I think we'll probably be here forever with that.

Glad your Westie is better now :) I'll let you know what results we get with Naturediet, if we decide to switch to that.

Hi Zarah
Have you asked your vet for a referral to a GI specialist?  If not, please insist that he does a.s.a.p.  Playing around with diet in an attempt to resolve a long term problem that he has no definitive diagnosis for and that is not clearing up at all seems extremely poor advice on his part.

I'd be looking at the very least to have full bloods and stool samples done, ultra-sound and if then deemed necessary an endoscopy with biopsies by now :(  His symptoms sound like he could have any one of quite a variety of illnesses such as helicobacter, pancreatic disorder, auto-immune disease, IBD, atrophic gastritis, tumours ........

Don't want to sound so negative as any of the above may not apply or even if so can be treatable but none can afford to go undiagnosed for a prolonged period.

Good luck, please keep us posted.  Sending gentle hugs to your fur-baby,  Teri :)