Not logged inChampdogs Information Exchange
This is probably the most tragic thing that heas ever happened to us in our live's. The other day a friend came round and his child went upstairs to play with one of our own kids. We have two Rotties (one of which is a rescue dog and also the dog in question) and these are always kept in the kitchen behind child gates when visitors to the house are present. The parent of the child was outside with me and left our house to collect something in his car. Meanwhile his child had come downstairs and had opened the gate where the dogs were kept. The child then went back upstairs but came back down a short while later and either jumped or tripped on the stairs and ended up falling onto the dog. The dog bit the child resulting in the child having to be taken to hospital with a severed finger. My wife was in another room at the time unaware that the gate had been opened. The parents demanded that the dog be put down imediately and called the police. The police have taken a statement and have today informed us that the cps do not wish to take the matter to court. We now face a compensation claim and have lost a very good friend. The dog was taken to the vets at the earliest oppertunity who advised us against making a hasty decision on having the dog put to sleep due to the fact that she has not shown any aggression in the past and the fact that it was a defensive act by the dog to having a child fall on her from the stairs. This whole situation is completly heartbreaking both for the injury to the child, the loss of a friend and the now inevitable civil compensation claim. I am also under the impression that a civil case can also lead to an application to have the dog destroyed. Any advise would be greatly appreciated as I really don't know what to do next or where we stand legaly.
By dizzy
Date 10.11.04 01:58 UTC
What a mess. -!!!!! you must feel ill about it all, - i too owned rotts and had kids and friends etc come home, ---but i think a dog is well capable of snacking and warning, --to sever a finger is not like the dog just warned :( i know what id do, but i dont expect youd want to hear it, -but id be ill if they dog stayed. , sorry, but thats how id feel.,
By Trevor
Date 10.11.04 05:45 UTC

How awful for everyone - I truely don't know what I would do in this situation - I hope that things resolve themselves a best as they can
As neither of you were present when the incident occured, you cannot be absolutely sure as to what happened.
A severed finger is not a small bite. I have to agree with Dizzy on this one, I would never ever be able to trust this dog again. One bite is one to many in my opinion. Much as you love your dog, your children have to come first.
You undoubtedly will face a court case. Check with your house and contents insurance, a lot of insurance do cover you for liability.
I also meant to say, that a dog which is sound in temperament should not react this way. A growl, a warning, even an immediate retreat would be the reactions I would expect, not an immediate bite. I think from your post, that I understand the dog that bit was the rescue, past history can play a big part in this, and you do not know what has happened to this dog previously.
I feel so sorry for you in this situation, but unfortunately as much as we try to be as careful as it is possible to be, things do go wrong.
By floozy
Date 10.11.04 08:20 UTC
Sorry but agree with the others. I had fully grown rescue newfie once, had only had him 5 days, he was sleeping at bottom of stairs when my 3 yr old tripped on stairs and landed full onto sleeping dog. The dog leapt up knocking my son off but that was it, and this dog had been whacked about and not been in a house before he came to us. Hard as it is I would have him PTS.
Also if you have pet insurance they will usually include third party cover.
Hi im sorry to hear what has happened to you and i would reccomend you do take legal advice.
the key point that has been made is even when feeling threatened or hurt a steady tempermented dog will not bite especially hard enough to severe a finger.
as heart breaking as it will be the only responsible option for you is to have the PTS,the court may well require it anyway. but it your duty as the dog owner to act responsibly and in the best interest of both the dog and the general public and indeed your own children! next time it may be even worse.
i hope it all works out for you.
:)

I feel I have to disagree with what others have said, I grew up with Afghans, we had one that was particularly nervy and would bite strangers, other dogs etc. He was kept away from visitors and on a lead when out therefore he never got the opportunity to bite a stranger - just the person holding his lead when he wanted to get to another dog :rolleyes: he lived until he was 14 and never bit anyone outside of the family, but that was our choice. We had another Afghan who was soft as anything, anyone could do anything with him (I was handeling him in the ring when I was the same height as him). His problem was people treding on him when he was asleep - and who can blame him? The amount of times me or my brother trod on him and got bitten but that was our fault not the dogs he was thrown out of sleep by someone tredding on him, he didnt know who or what it was.
We were always bitten on fleshy places like thighs so I dont know what damage he would have done to a finger but a childs finger is only a small thing so could quite easily be severed, my dog was NOT an aggressive dog though. If you feel your Rottie is a danger to people then by all means get him pts but really he is probably just a normal dog who didnt appreciate being trodden on especially if he was asleep.
I would think very hard about it, and dont worry about losing friends, what sort of friend would take legal action anyway :(
By Carla
Date 10.11.04 09:28 UTC
I'm shocked!!

I would never tolerate a dog that bit anyone - and certainly not anyone in my family! My dogs couldn't give a toss if I fell on them when they are asleep - I'd get licked to death! :D

Im sorry Im not 100% convinced it should be put down YET without knowing all the facts.
Is the finger severed off?
Has the dog shown any aggression before?
Why are they kept behind kiddie gates,is it because you dont trust them?
In your heart of hearts you know that dog better than anyone,but IF you do decide
to keep it then you would have to commit yourself to a live time with that dog
you couldnt pass it on and if ever you needed too the only option would be PTS,
its the only fair thing for the dog and the public.
I hope to god Im never in the same situation.
By Carla
Date 10.11.04 09:43 UTC
I agree. However, as I said I wouldn't tolerate a dog that bit - certainly not children - in my house. I would look into building a lockable kennel and run in the garden in the very least if the incident did not warrant the dog being pts.
Cams 472
Please don't do anything drastic yet. Let the dust die down and when you can take an objective view of the whole incident and the factors involved, then and only then, make a decision.
Yes, it is awful when our children get accidentally hurt but childhood, like life, is not without risk. I assume you have been told what happened by the children so have a reasonably clear account of things and if your dog had been let out of the kitchen by a child, and gone to sleep at the foot of the stairs, it hardly paints a picture of a dog actively seeking out children and biting them.
Your dog was rudely awakened and might even have been hurt itself when the child landed on him/her(?) and this may have been what caused the reaction. Sometime we expect too much of our dogs - they are beings in their own right. If we were walking along a street at night and someone jumped out on us from a dark alley we would probably hit out first and ask questions later and who would blame us? If it turned out to be a friend fooling around and he got a black eye - tough - that's the consequences of catching someone unawares!
Watch your dog carefully and note any adverse reaction with your children and others before you make a decision you cannot undo.

Well said :)
And I totally agree.
By John
Date 10.11.04 10:51 UTC
I have to say, I would never tolerate this form one of my dogs. It would be gone by now. The next bite may well not be JUST a finger but could well be some child's life. With the best will in the world, no one can ever guarantee that they can guard the dog 24 hours a day 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year. Sorry but I'm afraid the risk is just too great.
Regards, John
Maybe you wouldn't John but we have to face facts that dogs bite - it is the only weapon and means of defence they have. If we cannot accept that this IS the nature of the beast then we should not have them in our home.
This, so far, shows all the hallmarks of a very unfortunate accident - they happen. What would you do if 2 kids were playing in a playground and one accidentally, while fooling around, got knocked off a roundabout and broke his arm? Would you demand that the other child be destroyed? Of course not, it would be seen in context for what it was and hopefully BOTH kids would learn a lesson from it.
Dogs are not machines in fur coats they are real life, living breathing animals with instincts and reactions like any other animal. This one incident does not make this dog dangerous, aggressive,and no longer fit to live.
By John
Date 10.11.04 11:12 UTC
<<Dogs are not machines in fur coats>>
I think I realise this Suziegue.
Your analagie to 2 children playing on a swing is plain rubbish! This was not a nip. A finger was severed. It was a full blown bite and that cannot be condoned. We have several dogs at present covered by the DDA and if we are not careful Rotties could well go onto the list. As to the rubbish oft spouted that a dog is entitaled to one bite, NO IT IS NOT! No dog is entitled to sever a finger. If you have a dog in your home which you accept may bite, (And that is your words) then why should someone coming to your home accept this? If I called on you and your dog bit me that is hardly my fault. I'm sorry but your arguments do not stand up.
Regards, John
By lydia
Date 10.11.04 11:25 UTC
The part that worries me is the dog is kept behind a gate when you have visitors, which tells me you do not 100% trust him. My dogs would yelp and run if hurt they would NEVER bite. I think unless you can say 100% this will never happen again the dog should be PTS.
I feel so sorry for you, as I have been in this situation and could not, would not, take the chance of it happening again, my dog was 8 and I had him from 8 weeks of age, very sad but I think there is only one option.
Maybe the dog was really hurt when the child landed on him/her and acted out of shock, if someone jumped on top of me and hurt me when I was fast asleep my natural reaction to this would be to react, sorry but I would really think about this from the dog's point of view, on the basis that he/she has naturally reacted to something that I am assuming has hurt and shocked him/her. If the dog has shown signs of aggression before and this is the reason why it is kept behind gates then this is a different story - but for a one off incident which you did not see I would give this dog another chance. Like a previous poster said I think that some people expect too much from their dogs sometimes and need to understand that they are like us in that they have feelings and they have their off days. Just my view.

I agree with you Brigham.

My dogs are kept behind a baby gate when we have visitors, for the visitors sake.
What if the visitors are wary of big dogs? Or have children that are scared of them?
Until I am sure that the guests will be ok with three lumps jumping all over them, then they remain behind the gate.
And thats not because "if they dont like dogs then they dont come in"... its for my peace of mind.

I always put my rotties in the kitchen when visitors come (excluding family)
due to the fact they are in your face and demanding attention.
I feel so very very sorry for the owner their head must be fit to burst with
the worry and not knowing what to do.
I also keep my dogs behind a child gate when we have visitors although tehy are pups it is not because they are dangerous but because they will try and lick you to death and sit on your lap and be thorough pests. Not everyone wants a dog running around ther feet and if they don't mind then we'll let them out.

My dogs do not jump all over anybody that comes to the house, I would be mortified if they did, I unfortunately, upon visiting others peoples houses, know how annoying it is. They are trained to lay down and are only released when the people concerned are friends or family.
Luckily, strangers in my house that are wary of big dogs do not feel threatened as they are laying down watching, not making a nuisance of themselves. And I am lucky in that everybody that does visit, accepts and understands the fact that I will not lock my dogs away, or behind anything, for anybody. And size really makes no difference, all dogs are capable of biting. But having protocol and training in place when people arrive makes it a lot easier.
Even if, a dog is startled by being "jumped or trodden on", in no way should the outcome be this drastic. it is a very difficult situation to judge. Lets hope that none of us on here, EVER have to make such a heartbreaking decision, either way.
By Carla
Date 10.11.04 11:36 UTC
I totally agree with John. IMO Dogs have a place in the household and thats where they should stay - my dogs have no rights, only priveliges.
John
Every single dog with teeth has the capability to bite - this is the nature of the beast. Luckily, if breeders select for good temperament aswell as trying to meet breed standards we get dogs with a low propensity to bite us. With good socialisation our dogs are even more reliable in not biting. BUT push a dog, or any animal, into a position where it has to defend itself and it will. This is what dogs do, it is hard wired into their brain, it is what their nature impells them to do. This is what I mean when I say all dogs bite and we have to realise that if we let them into our homes. We have domesticated them but we cannot eradicate their survival instincts. Nowhere did I say that if you come to my house you should expect to get bitten - you are twisting what I said.
Nor am I saying that we should accept aggressive, out of control dogs in our society.
This dog was startled out of sleep, if hurt in the impact it could well have thought that it was being attacked and the snap (it may only have been one) would be an involuntary reaction. That does NOT make it vicious or dangerous or anything else that means it should pay with its life. Neither am I saying every dog should be allowed one bite - nowhere did I say that either. I am saying that this should be judged on the circumstances and all factors involved and if this dog shows no other indication of biting and aggression towards people it should not have to sacrifice its life.
That is why I feel that this man should let some time elapse before he reacts to the pressure being put upon him.
This has nothing to do with it being a Rottie, the DDA or any other red herring that gets put up here in response to this person's dilemma.
As to the dogs being left behind a gate in the kitchen - could it be that these owners were showing consideration for all involved? Kids can get very excitable, boisterous and noisy in play. Dogs then get excited and join in - it often ends up with tears because the dogs knocked the kids over or jumped up in play and accidentally clawed them or the kids tripped over the dog. Why jump to conclusions that the owners thought these dogs were a problem? They are big dogs and rowdiness in a house with kids and dogs doesn't always mix.
For some strange reason there seems to be an element of cynisism and hysteria attached to these instances - it can prompt people to make wrong decisions.
If the police have visited and taken a statement but chosen not to remove the dog that surely must be saying something to the braying crowd.
By John
Date 10.11.04 15:29 UTC
suzieque, With the stress being endured by this person I will not make it worse by bandying words with you. Suffice to say that if it was your son you might well think differently. This lad is going to have to live with a missing finger at worst or a finger with impaired movement at best. It could well affect the child's future possibilities of earning his living. The owner of the dog will almost certainly be sued for compensation and his or her best defence is to be able to say that the only responsible action has already been taken.
Regards, John
Yes John, you're right, he will but killing the dog won't change that - the injury has already been done and nothing points to this being a deliberate action on the part of the dog.
Would I feel different if it were one of my children? No, not if the circumstances proved it to be the result of an unfortunate accident. I would hope that good sense and reason would prevail.
Chloe i am proud to say that my dogs have rights AND priveliges in my home,they are my kids and treated as such,you can never give too much love as you will get it tenfold in return,maybe you should try it sometime :)
It';s just that your post sounded awfully hard,the impression i got from it was that dogs are just dogs who dont deserve privledges and they should stay down the ladder where they belong!!!!!!
No-one has the right to tell another dog owner to put their dog down!
This is also the last thing i will say on this thread,some of the replies are just to distressing and hard hearted :(
By Carla
Date 11.11.04 13:14 UTC
LOL Ozzie...my dogs have plenty of love (have a look at my site to see) and have a fantastic home but they are just dogs and their place is at the bottom of the household. They don't own us, they don't make decisions - and you know what? thats the way they like it.
I haven't said to put the dog down - only that I would not tolerate a dog who bit in my house with my children.
By dizzy
Date 10.11.04 18:36 UTC
sorry, -- but ive had dogs over 22 years , and a few different breeds---not one has ever bitten anyone !!!!!!!! but then im caferful about temperament.
By G30ff
Date 11.11.04 09:12 UTC
Well I definitely would not tolerate this sort of behavior in any dog, it should have been pts immediately... sorry but thats how I feel..
How would you feel if YOUR child's finger had been bitten off....
Geoff :(

What a terrible predicament you are in :(
Unfortunately, dogs are unpredictable, especially rescue ones, because we don't really know what unfortunate things they suffered in their lives before we took them on. The ultimate decision will be down to you and you alone.
Ask yourself, how would you feel if this happened again?
Will you, in your heart of hearts, trust your dog with your own kids or anyone else ever again?
You say they are always kept in the kitchen whenever visitors come to the house, is this because you don't trust them? Or because you appreciate that not all visitors like dogs. Me, I never lock my dogs away when people come, if they don't like dogs then they don't come in. My dogs are fallen and trodden on from time to time, if it hurts, they yelp and move, more often than not they just look up and wag their tails.
yes, dogs bite in self defence, and if that is the only reason, then it is unfair that the dog is made to suffer. But when a dog reacts in self defence it is normally a snap/growl at best and a small reactionary nip at worst.
From my own personal point of view, if one of my dogs bit a child this severely, (a nip would set me thinking) I would have it pts. But it must be awful for you and I'm sure that whatever you decide, it will not be an easy decision for you.
Thanks for the many opinions and after reading them all I think that the only thing to do will be to have the dog PTS. Ironicly the dogs are kept behind child gates simply because I strongly believe in resposible dog ownership and also believe that ANY dog has the potential to bite given the right circumstances. These are also large dogs and can be intimidating to people knocking on the door so they are penned in when visitors are present. I also believe that it is a good idea to have kids that are strange to the dog seperated from the dog which reduces the chance of a child pulling or hurting the dog unintentionaly. In a nutshell.......Do I trust my dogs 100%?.........The answer is you can't trust ANY dog 100%, they do not have the same values as a human. The gates are there as a sensible precaution. Yes this has also made me ill I have not been to work for two days. My friend has verbally abused me and can't understand why I have even took so long to think about it.
As an extra note the history of the dog is known. She came from The Isle Of Wight and was re-homed due to new work commitments for the owners which would have meant leaving the dog alone for long hours which obviously would not be good for the dog. She is a pedigree dog and we have the papers for her. After reading these posts I don't think I can take the risk of this happening again even given the fact that she has not shown aggression in the past. I think it would be iresponsible to keep a dog knowing that it is capable of this type of thing. As you can imagine this is the most heartbreaking thing that has ever happened to us and I have tears in my eyes just typing this post.

Could rescue not help ? my mums friend has a small holding and he has a rescue rott who had to be re-homed due to it biting the owners husband it is now leading a really happy life with him (he is on his own, no kids etc - although it has eaten a few of his chickens :( )

if it was my dog there is no way id have it put down,
how do we know the child was not tormenting the dog?
it didnt maul or kill the child,which i suppose if it was a dangerous aggressive dog it would have.
obvisley a big dog with powerful jaws is going to do damage,its not the dogs fault that they have been bred with the impliments to do damage
how old was the child ?& how bad was the finger? right off? hanging off by the skin ? or still attached?

I agree with you Michelle :)

i dont thing anyone else will,but thats my opinion,my gut reaction.

Actually I agree No one actually saw what happened & the child is not going to be the best of witnesses
The DDA does not apply as the incident happened in a non public place & what was the child doing going through the child gate
I do think the dog shoul be plaved in an experienced home as you obviously do not have the right dog in the right home
When I read your post my main thought was that it was a tragic accident and the dog could not be blamed. Some have said they would have expected a growl or a nip but I think we have to remember that a big dog has powerful teeth and jaws and a child's finger is very small and soft.
And many responsible owners keep their dogs separated with gates or crates when visitors call. Whenever my elderly mum visits I make sure that my 2 are prevented from jumping up and knocking her off balance - and they are toy breeds !
In this case I feel you played your part by gating the dogs. It was the child who opened the gate, and that child is the responsibility of its parents.
As I said it was a horrible accident and you are already suffering terribly. It would only add to your guilt and anguish to part with your beloved dog.
>Or because you appreciate that not all visitors like dogs
I have a close friend who is allergic to dogs. If she calls round of course I shut the dogs away! That is the only polite course of action. I also often shut them away when friends with children call - not because I don't trust the dogs, but because I don't always trust the child, and unless the child is supervised I'm going to protect my dogs!
:)
As sad as it is I think its the right decision to have the dog PTS. Its already been said that children live in the same house as the dog and I'd be very concerned that the dog could at some point bite one of them. I just couldn't live peacefully with the situation. The bite of a Rottweiler is one of the most powerful and obviously this wasn't some kind of warning. I've had Rotts for 20 years and there's no way in hell that I'd keep a dog in our house that had 'crossed the line' - as hard as it is. I was really shocked to read the post about Afghans!!!
My thoughts are with you at this very very difficult time.
I'm not going to play this down, the finger was hanging by its skin and has had to be sewn back on. Plastic surgery will be needed in the future and the doctors don't know it the finger is going to "take". As you can see this was not just a nip. I would not re-home her out of resposibility, if the dog has bitten once it is capable of biting again and next time it could be even worse. This is a dog lovers site and from the responses recieved I can see that if I am honest with myself the only thing left to do now is have her PTS. The child is five years old.
By John
Date 10.11.04 13:07 UTC
I am sorry for you that this had to happen Cams472 but I feel you are taking the responsible action. It is always a hard thing to do at any time.
Regards, John
By tohme
Date 10.11.04 13:14 UTC
I feel very sorry for you and feel that you have taken the responsible decision.
It is a terrible thing to do. I had to have one of my dogs PTS (I rehomed him from another family) because unfortunately he had no bite inhibition. Fortunately I found that out before he bit anyone other than me...........................
It is not the reaction itself per se that you need to focus on but the damage that is done. A dog that causes this degree of damage from one bite is, IMHO, a lot more potentially dangerous than one that has snapped several times but never or barely broken the skin.
It is not the number of incidents but the severity of them.
It is heartbreaking; my sympathies are with all parties concerned.
Cam please reconsider!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I cannot believe some of the responces of supposedly "dog loving" people!
This is a living,breathing creature we are talking about here,not something we can just throw away.
I think there may be more to this story than meets the eye,i know i would not leave a 5 year old kid alone with my dogs,not because i dont trust my dogs,i dont trust kids around dogs at that age!
Killing the dog is taking the easy way out,why dont you give him to someone who is experienced with the breed and who can train him.The dog is not in pain,does not have a terminal illness,therefore there is NO excuse to to dump him at the vets.
Once again,this is a living,feeling entity we are talking about here,some of you are talking about this dog as if it is a dead plant that can just be tossed out. How can anyone that loves their dog go and get rid of it or even contemplate it????? Cam you saw how quickly your friend turned her back on you,can you say the same about your dog?? I bet he is still there loving you no matter what.
I have kids,so i can empathise but if this happened to one of them i would not dream of asking the owner to kill their beloved dog,what on earth does this solve???Does it fix the kid??? NO. If a dog mauled and killed a child then i may reconsider,maybe!! I feel so sorry for that poor dog,he was peacfully sleeping and then a big lug fell hard on top of him,and he reacted the only way he new how. This dog needs to be trained NOT disposed of!
By nitody
Date 11.11.04 11:10 UTC
Can I just ask, was the dog actually sleeping? I have to admit I haven't read all the posts, but the original one says nothing about the dog sleeping.
:-)

It was an accident!
Accidents do happen and dog's have no other way of protecting themselves other than using their mouths.
Please consider rescue - have you spoken to Rottie Rescue, to see what they suggest?
Why not talk it over with them first?
I am sorry and I am sure that many people would disagree with me, but if it was someone else's child, who had come into my house, let out my dogs which were safely locked away, and then been hurt as a result of a tragic accident, I would not see it as the fault of the dog.
Even if it was my own child, I would still see it as an accident. :(

i cant continue to post on this thread,its too upsetting,
cant imagine how you feel
i still do not agree that its as cut & dryed as that though & i never will
that poor bloody dog,who was only being a dog
my last word on this,as im too upset to debate it any further
Powered by mwForum 2.29.6 © 1999-2015 Markus Wichitill