Hi, I'm new to the site and need some advice please!
I have two male Weimaraners,a 3 year old and a four month old puppy. They are both fed on Pedigree (don't shot me!) and poo constantly.
The 3 year old had bloat when he was 10 months old and we were advised to feed him on wet food which we do, but am getting concerned for both of them, esp after reading some of things on the site!
I have read over old posts about Burns and other foods like it, but need advice as to what would suit my Weims...any one out there that could help me?
Much appreciated!
Jay

Hi

You will find that many many many weimaraner owners feed Burns quite happily and do well on it.  The only downside to Burns is, IMHO, its low oil level which may be a problem to some dogs but not all.

I have weimaraners but choose to feed raw; if I were to change to commercial food I think my first choice would be Naturediet as that is a "wet" food but contains only meat, rice and carrots or Burns if I fed a dry food.

Whatever you choose to feed it is essential, IMHO, to know exactly WHAT is in the food, unfortunately neither pedigree nor its make Chappied do this.

If you want to know more please feel free to e-mail me.

regards

Thanks for your advice...don't think I could bear to feed raw so want the next best thing really...do you know if Naturediet have a website?
It's only the older one who's on wet food so maybe I could that to him and Burns to the pup...?

A dog owned by a friend developed a really bad bloat at 8 years old.  He survived, but the vet put him on a special tinned food which was really expensive.  After a couple of months, the vet said he should buy tins of Chappie Chicken and Rice because it was more or less the same as the special diet, but a lot cheaper.  The dog lived for another 3 years on this tinned food, before dying of something completely unrelated.

We tried chappie when he was first ill and it went through him faster than pedigree does so we stopped using it...thanks for posting though...

http://www.naturediet.co.uk

You can feed your puppy Naturediet too you know! :D

Makes it easier and cheaper especially if you buy in bulk.

I know how you feel, have had a bloat and two torsions, one of the reasons I moved to raw............

regards

Thanks, you have been really helpful...as the puppy is getting older and closer to 10 months we are starting to worry more about what we are feeding him on - he came from the breeder with Pedigree so we just kept him on it.
It was awful to see our older dog go through what he did, we have such a fantastic vet who operated on him at midnight (why do these things always happen at unearthly hours?!).
Anyway, thanks again for your help and advice.
Jayby

One more question (sorry!)...we usually give mixer with the wet food for a bit of "crunch" if I was to switch them both to Naturediet what would I be able to use as they don't seem to make anything...could I add a bit of Burns to it or would that overdose them with proteins etc...?
Thanks, J

FWIW if I was feeding a "complete" food then that would be one of the reasons I was feeding it, because it was "complete".

Why do you want to add crunch?

If it is to clean the teeth you can a) clean them, b) give fragaria 6c or c) give them some knuckle bones to gnaw............

regards

They seem to eat it better that way, I'm probably just pandering to their every whim and fancy too much!!

Probably............... :D

I feed mine Burns with ND - they love it. And sometimes I even put raw green tripe on the top! :D :D Makes the complete completer I think :D :D

Thanks Chloe, that's what I was thinking of doing but didn't want to cancel out the goodness in either of them if you know what I mean!

You won't "cancel goodness out" but you will then unbalance the protein/carb/oil ratio................. unless of course you can calculate it as you add the items...........

Even I don't eat a complete diet thats been prepared in a lab by scientists so I don't see why my dogs should have that privelige :D

:D precisely...................... :D

I am actually a big believer in raw feeding - that said I am rubbish at feeding it and even worse at shopping for it. So, in the same way that we eat care of Mister Marks and Mister Spencer the dogs eat care of Mister Burns and occasionally Miss Naturediet and cow guts :D

OK, thanks for your advice...I'm obviously new to all of this and a bit ignorant hence feeding my dogs Pedigree...

i have barfed for the last 2years,but because ive been away so much this season with two day shows i have gone back to biscuits,as it was easier to take & store at shows. went to burns initally but now have gone onto nutro choice,& they are all looking fantastic.

i dont see a problem with doing that,especially if say you fed 3/4s reccommended amount daily of ND,then 1/4 of REC ammount daily of burns, or whatever

Yes that makes sense, it's pretty much what I do now with Pedigree complete and tinned food...I'm definately going to get both Burns and ND and see what my dogs prefer and whether I'll need to mix it for them...
Thanks again for all advice and opinions...

Our older dog was on Nutro puppy when he got bloat...he was feed at 6 in the evening and when the vet operated at midnight his stomach was still full...he hadn't digested any of it which is why I'm wary of feeding dry food on it's on...do you have Weimaraners Michelle?

god no!
i have border collies, :)

gosh if youve had a shock like that stick to wet food!!!
how awful for you

It was horrendous, he was only 10 months old and as he was our first weimaraner I'd read up on the breed and saw the condition so when it happened I recognised the symptoms and got him to our vet who was fantastic...now we have weim number 2 we want to be extra careful...he was fed on pedigree at the breeders so we kept him on it, but both of them poo like mad (sorry tmi!) and having read previous posts about foods like pedigree I want to change them on to something else...

i always had nice poos with ND & burns!!!!

That's what I wanted to hear! None of this pussy-footing around the subject!!
Thank you!!

But what about your dogs' Michelle? :D

Just been to the vet about an unrelated matter and mentioned that I wanted to change both dogs food and what did he think of Burns/ND and he just harped on about Hills...

That is because a) he sells it and b) most vets know as much about nutrition as I know about cruciate ligament repair, probably less..........

I did wonder if it was part of the training at vet school?!

I don't think they do study nutrition specifically, Jaybe, but they are highly intelligent people that have gone through a demanding candidate selection process followed by a long and rigorous training which would have given them an excellent grounding in anatomy and physiology.  Given that they will have a lot of patients where nutrition has played a part in there condition I doubt they would not continue to update themselves on the subject.  They will, of course, have access to all the information that you or I have via the internet etc which they will be, perhaps, better able to apply with their scientific training, plus professional publications, peer reveiwed, and seminars that the lay person doesn't have access to.  I suspect, therefore, that the average vet will have a pretty good understanding of a dogs dietry needs :)

Isabel,

"I suspect, therefore, that the average vet will have a pretty good understanding of a dogs dietry needs"

Not from a practice or practical point of view.  Understanding from a chemical and nutrional composition standpoint what dogs need is different from applying that to real foods.  Which is why the answer is "Hills" or if this forum is an indicator "Chappie"  whenever a diet-related problem presents itself.  At least Chappie does not pay vets commissions and other perks for selling their stuff in the vets surgery. 

I would respect any vet that said, "you can either use this overpriced can of Hills for your dog, or, here's a recipe sheet for food that you can prepare yourself for your dog."   Has never happened to me or to anyone I know with dogs, unless they use a homeopathic vet.

Not to mention most vets seem to think people are incapable of feeding their dogs a nutrionally complete diet unless they resort to commercially prepared food.  It's either ignorance on the vet's part or patronising superiority in the part of vets who do not believe their clients capable of doing so.

Stacey

Whether they would choose to flog you something from their store cupboard is a seperate issue :) although I have certainly had experience of vets recommending foods that they don't sell.  I am not sure that you can say they will not know quite a bit about nutrition from a practice or practical point of view as it seems logical to me that this is exactly what they will have :)  Isn't it possible that they recommend Hills for certain dogs because their own research and experience suggests it will be suitable (even if they are choosing not to tell you about cheaper alternatives :)) and isn't it possible that they recommend complete diets generally because they have deduced from their own research and experience that that is the best feeding method for most dogs. Its hardy patronising to the public to suggest this when the vast majority of the public choose to do this anyway.
I forgot to ask - Why would a homoeopathic vet know more about nutrition?

I read that vets spend one and a half hours at a feeding seminar in the whole time they are at vet school and guess what? the seminar is sponsored by Hills

Most degree courses do not include the full and final information on a subject, a general grounding is taught and the student learns to evaluate information as it becomes available that way you always stay up to date and I suppose who pays for the grounding soon becomes irrelevant :)

Isabel,

I disagree that it's a separate issue whether or not a vet chooses to flog a product they sell and does not offer alternatives.  Especially in those cases where a dog has no problems, but the vet pushes Hills (as mentioned previously in these postings.)  If the answer to a problem is always found in a can or a bag of Hills - then that is a problem.

Knowing quite a bit about nutrition requires a lot of practical experience in that specific field, not just book learning or a course or two, (plus literature from Hills.)  It's the same in human medicine, which is why many surgeries have a dietician.  Vets are not superhuman, the vast majority are generalists that cannot possibly keep up in depth with every aspect of animal science.  And practical experience is oftentimes limited to the dogs that come through their practice and how closely they follow them (which is not very, in most cases) - not to mention the number of dogs they own and their level of involvement for a hands on view of cause-and-effect. 

"Isn't it possible that they recommend Hills for certain dogs because their own research and experience suggests it will be suitable (even if they are choosing not to tell you about cheaper alternatives ) and isn't it possible that they recommend complete diets generally because they have deduced from their own research and experience that that is the best feeding method for most dogs. "

I never mention anything about *cheaper* alternatives, I said alternatives.  I think it is more likely that vets recommend commercial completes produced by the big name brands because they either are not aware of alternatives or have convinced themselves the only way to guarantee a balanced diet is if some manufacturer prepares it.  I doubt any of them have done much research into alternative or know about some of the smaller and more specialist producers. 

Homoepathic vets spend more time studying the nutrional contribution to health post vet school.  It tends to be one of the foundations of their practice, rather than as a sideline.

And, by the way, the majority of my own dogs' diet is a commercially prepared complete food. 

Stacey

Stacey
Stacey, moving across to the left here :), I think it is a seperate issue for the purposes of this thread which I believe is about how much knowledge vets have of nutrition.
I know you didn't mention cheaper alternatives that was my little joke because Hills often is the most expensive, hence the smiley, as I say I am not defending vets grasping the opportunity to make money just saying I find it difficult to believe they won't have informed themselves about nutrition as so many of there consultations will hinge upon it.
You think it is more likely they recommend completes because they don't know alternatives or have convinced themselves it is the only way to provide a balanced diet (isn't that a little patronising? :))  and I think they do so because they have learnt it is a very good way to provide a balanced diet, either of us could be right! :)
How do you know homoeopathic vets study nutrition more post graduately, I don't know how much conventional vets study nutrition post graduately, do you?

Stacey

I was always recommended by my vet to mosisten the dry foods for deep chested dogs and also to raise the feeding bowl. Apparently this helps to reduce the likelyhood of bloat and reduce risk of gastric torsion. I don't know how proven this is but thought it worth passing on (even if you already know this!)

It's me with the dog that had bloat...and we did know about both of those things...he is now fed on wet food but is still fed at floor level on advice from the breeder...
It is really hard to know what to do for the best...I have been reading more about Naturediet and the more I read the more I like the sound of it...I've ordered some samples from Burns too to see which my dogs prefer, but like I said before I am reluctant to switch back to a completely dry food because of the bloat issue.
I am convinced however to change their diet away from Pedigree...

Hi Robert,

If I remember correctly there was a recent study which showed that does fed moistened dried food actually had a higher incident of bloat.  Also, dogs fed from raised bowls had a higher incident of bloat.  I am 100% sure of the latter and not as sure of the former.

I did not save the link to the study report because I no longer own dogs that are prone to bloat.   However, I am pretty sure Tohme posted the link. Tohme, if you read this .. do you recall the results of the recent university study on bloat?

Stacey

Statistics can always be misleading. I've never been able to understand any logical reason why raising a food bowl could possibly increase the risk of bloat. Could it be that almost the only people who raise the food bowl do so because there is a higher than average risk of their breed contracting bloat? This would give a higher than average incident but would at the same time make nonsense of the construction put on that fact.

Regards, John

Hi John,

It used to be recommended that for breeds subject to bloat that you raise the food bowl and that would reduce the likelyhood of it happening.  I believe people thought that dogs would swallow less air if the food bowl was raised.   Now you can ask why anyone thought swallowing too much air would cause bloat in the first place.  When you find the answer, let me know.

I used to own GSDs and knew many breeders.  They all had experienced one or more dogs that bloated (some dogs more than once.)   They fed the dogs at the same time, the same food .. everything was always the same.   Bloat always happened out of the blue and for no explicable reason.  Even breeders I knew who were breeding for over 30 years never saw a pattern in their experience or those of other breeders with dogs subject to bloat.   None of the studies about bloat are really conclusive about anything, except it seems they do not know what causes bloat.

Stacey

I remember an article some years ago which linked bloat to the ratio of height to width of the body. Dogs with a high ratio such as Irish Red Setters were so much more at risk that dogs with a low ratio such as Labradors. I know any breed CAN have this problem but the incident does, I believe, go up with these high ratio breeds. I know several GSD's who have had bloat, one who had it 3 times. Unfortunately the third time was once too often. I also remember talking about it to Pat Chapman many years ago. Her theory was that in some cases there was, at least in Flatcoats, a hereditary link. That some lines had rather more than their fair share of bloat.

Regards, John
 

http://www.vet.purdue.edu/epi/bloat.htm

In Weimaraners there is a strong familial link.  One of mine that I lost to torsion had a dam and two aunts with it. 

Probably a long shot Tohme, but I wonder if our Weimaraners are related...I'd be really interested to find out.
Where in the county did you get yours from?

I think I can probably say that they are not.........................

Oh...OK...fair enough...leave it at that shall I?!

jayby if you want a clue why they will not be related to yours look under home, guided search, gundogs, weimaraners, owners, (you will see my name) if you click on my dog's name it will become obvious............... :)

regards

why do you say that tohme ???
are yours made of real silver or something?
that comment has come across as really snobby

Well...TBH I thought is was really snobby too...and have followed your instructions...so yours are longhaired - you could have just said that!!
Surely there must be a link between the LH and SH somewhere...anyway...completely irrelevant now...