Hurray for a bit of perspective on this Briony! As I said in my original reply, I had a "mistake" litter. Although no-one knew it at the time, we have a problem with HC in our breed. I later found out the pups from the "mistake" mating (affected son to carrier mother) were far better (eye wise) than those from her previous planned matings to a relative outcross. If only genetics was as easy to predict as some seem to think. I would far rather buy a puppy from this mating than, as many "pet" owners do, from 2 completely untested parents.

"Also sellthe puppies with insurance so that new owners have the option of continuing this."

Isn't that in way, defrauding the insurance company!!!!  and getting someone else to pay for your mistake.

Why is it? Insurance companies insure those from untested parents - I know because mine do - so why is it defrauding the company?? There's no guarantee the pups will have HD.

Beacuase In my Opinion you are honour bound to inform any insurance company of anything that may affect an insurance.

When I sell my pups and send them out with Insurance, I am asked if there is any problem with any of the puppies.  Admittedly I would not have to tell them of the High Score of the Sire, but my conscience wouldn't let me do that.

It is not impossible that if one of the pups did go down with HD, then with a little investigation it could make the Insurance Claim invalid.

But Ldy/D, you don`t know that anything will be wrong with the pups & thats the truth. The fact is that having loe hip scoring parents will not & does not mean off spring will have low hip scores.
Christine, Spain.

that must mean if both low hip scoring parents produce high hip scoring pups insurance won`t honour that claim either?

I realise that Christine, if you read my previous post you will see that a friend of mine has just experienced just that, but when you do know that a litter has been born with one parent having a high score then the chances of HD must increase significantly.

If you think that these pups have no more chance than any other of having high scores, then there would be no reason to inform the buyers of the puppies of the scores.

I personally could not do that I would have to tell potential buyers that there could be a problem, the same as I would feel that I had to inform the insurance company that there could be ( not will be) a problem.

higher than average score! i dont think its that bad!!could be better admittedly but its hips are hardley falling out are they?
averages also mean very little unless every dog in the country is done, a average of the "better scores" is not a real average is it? alot of the bad plates arent even sent off,
i know because i was advised by my vet not to have flynns sent off!

Could not agree more about telling new owners, absolutely Lady/D. but as far as the insurance are concerend no. Even tho this litter may have a higher chance of h/d than scored parents it doesn`t mean they will have it, also there are steps the owner can take, being now aware of the maybe problem, to limit any possible h/d. I think informing insurance would be giving them room to add even more clauses to claim. If it was clear cut science, then yes, but not as things stand.
Christine, Spain.
(trying to catch up on your previous post)

Totally OT, but twice I`ve gone to post on here in the last wk 7 theres been arguing going on & it put me off, I`ve just caught up with the arguing further up on this thread so leaving this debate now.
Christine, Spain.

exactly! the more you research HD the less clear it is!

It's not fraud, a friend of mine bred two eye tested clear cockers, they produced a PRA affected bitch, she was covered by the insurance and is still insured to this day.  So even though parents maybe health tested, it's still not a guarantee!

You are missing my point Sharon.

Your friend bred a puppy with PRA accidently.  If the parents were clear then that is accidental.

If she had produced a PRA puppy, from one affected parent, then I feel that it would be fraud to insure.

It's not surprising the guest hasn't registered, they've certainly not had a very warm welcome, they have came on here asking for advise and all they've got is a good running down.  They've admitted it was an accident, and just wanted to know the possible outcome.

All I say is Good luck guest, I hope things work out ok for you!  :-)

So in that case you are better off breeding from untested parents so you don't have to tell the insurance company anything and then your pup is insured if the worse happens? Is that what you are saying? Or perhaps you should just come out with it and suggest all the pups are culled at birth?

If you read my previous post Chloe you would realise that culling the puppies would be one of the options I would take.

I would rather do that than be responsible for a dog that is likely to suffer for the rest of its life.

You yourself said last year I quote:

its horrendous seeing a fit and healthy and happy dog go off his back end like this 

No I am not saying that breeding from untested parents is better.  When you do know something could potentially affect the puppies then conscience says you should be upfront about it.

Hold on a minute this person has health tested  the parents with eye and hip cert which looking at the scores nothing really wrong her  a 23 and an 8 in total ,clear eyes what is the problem?
As long as temperament is sound which to be is of equal importance ,no good having perfect hips if the temperament questionable.

You can't hipscore the puppies until 12 months old and there nothing to suggest looking at figures of the hipscores that ANY of these puppies will have HD no more than really low scoring parents whose possible to throw high scores.
I know of several well known hip provers that are higher than breed average but whose progeny produce low scores.
HD HAS ALSO OTHER FACTORS .

bRIONY

Not at all,

Most good  people who breed a litters of pups sell the puppies with 6 wks free insurance.
These puppies may well have excellent hips no one will know until the pups are hipscored.
Even planned litters with very low hipscores od Sire and Dam can be sold with 6 fees inurance and its up to the purchasers to carry on or choose another insurance company and these pups could also potentially have hips problems.

Briony

i also dont think its the end of the world,
line breeding & in breeding is an accepted way of establishing a type,so if they have any bad faults in the line,ie bad mouths,ear carriage etc or whatever then you may have this in the pups,but otherwise you arent going to end up with two headed mutants or anything!
with ref to the hips,his are high,but not that high,hers are good,so,just explain to the new owners of the situation & to ensure the puppies are allowed to grow slowley & not overfed & not over exercised,this is all you can do now!
fingers xd for you

I can't believe what i've just read.
People come to this site for advice, from people who are more experienced than themselves.
I can't give advice to you guest, but my heart goes out to you.
You sound like a very responsible person, and in my opinion, all you can do now is, do right by the pups.
Make sure if there's any problems that they come back to you, not ending up in rescues.
I would take one of these pups on. My three dogs all have faults, thats why they ended up with me. And YES, i've had heartache, BUT i wouldn't be without ANY of them.
There will be lots of people out there just like me, so i'm sure you won't have any problems getting good pet homes for them.
You MUST tell all potential owners, what has happened, and what they might, OR might not expect, and how important it is to keep up with the insurance. And when getting the pups insured, make sure it's a policy that does not EXCLUDE.
Good luck.

Can I please add to all the people on here saying everyones slateing the guest.  from what I can see only 1/2 people have slated the guest, rest of the people have been encouraging but not been happy with only 1/2 people giving this fourm a bad name!

I must admit I am on another board that I left due to all the arguements between people and no-one having respect.  I have found out so much from this fourm about the world of dogs, but afew people always get funny about things.

Unfortantly mistakes DO happen, even to the most careful of us.  I would be lieing if I said we never had a mistake, its only human to make mistakes, no-one is perfect.

yes, i thought this debate was  not too bad...yet! much betterv than some!