The very worst has happened, my lab bitch came into season as usual and was kept apart from the others till her season was finished. Three days ago she started to look pregnant, I took her to the vets for a scan and there are at least 4 pups in there. From the date of mating given by the scanner she was mated before her season started (I was checking her daily and wiping her for a week before the first spot of blood)
From the due date the father has got to be her half brother and to make matters worse his hips are 10/13. I am devastated, the pups are due in 9 days. She has a hip score of 4/4 and has a clear eye certificate but thats not the point.
I am terrified that the pups will have problems with the parents being so closely related and I don't know how I am going to find homes for them. Can anyone give me some sound, sensible advice on what my options are and what problems I may face.

Don't panic!! They are not that closely related (assuming there is no other recent in-breeding in their pedigrees) &, apart from the hip score which isn't that horrific, if the dogs are from healthy lines, you shouldn't have any problems. In fact, if the parents are both good examples you may have a lovely litter! Good things are just as likely to come out in the pups as bad. Do you know the hip score of the common grand parent? If that's good, the pups stand a good chance of being OK too. Would suggest you have "Dad" castrated though to prevent it happening again. You will have to tell prospective purchasers about Dad's score, but since mum's is pretty good you shouldn't have a problem selling the pups - make sure you put an endorsement on them preventing them from being bred from though. I had a mistake litter years ago (Mum to son) so I know how devastated you feel. She had 5 pups, no problems and all went to pet homes, the last was pts 2 yrs ago at the age of 16!

I'm sorry this has happened Guest. With 44000 Labrador puppies registered in just one year and unplanned litter is definitely not what is needed!

Because of the closeness of the pedigrees any recessive gene problems are likely to come out in the puppies. This includes a number of eye problems including PRA. Epilepsy is another possibility and of course hip and elbow problems.

Of course, this is painting a black picture. Your dogs MAY not be carrying any health problems but the chances are there.

You now know the dangers of keeping an entire dog and bitch together. Bitches actually come into season a week before we see any discharge although they will rarely stand for a dog at that time. Also the season often continues for several days after the oft quoted 21 days from the start of the discharge. You are now left in a position of, because you did not see the mating take place, needing a DNA test to prove the sire is who you believe before the KC will register the litter.

John

I totally agree with Anwen - far worse things happen than this and at least you know the mum is OK testing wise - there are a lot of owners out there that continue to breed with no testing either side! Put it down to experience, chances are that everything will be fine and you will have a lovely litter. I would recommend you find good homes, get puppy contracts made up and make sure you are available to take them back at any time in the future - then you really have done all you can. Whats done is done so enjoy them now :)

It looks like you did everything you could to avoid a mating...I for one will be extra specially careful now, for I too would have acted as you have done in seperating your bitch from the male. As the others have said, now you should make the best of it, stop feeling guilty and look forward to the pups. You seem to be a caring person and I am sure you will find them some good homes.

Accidents do happen and it can be very difficult to judge exactly how long a season lasts - my bitch Lola varies from the classic three weeks to nearly five :rolleyes:.  I'm sure the pups will be fine - as other folk have said just chalk it down to experience and enjoy them ! :)

Accidents do happen but accidents should not happen. Anyone who keeps a dog and a bitch knows the risks they are taking and should plan accordingly. One of this partnership has bad hips, almost double the breed average and is very closely related to the other. A half brother no less. From that it follows that there is a more than even chance that the puppies will also have bad hips. It is all very well saying, as one person has, that worse things happen than this, but I must say, not much worse!

Accidents are avoidable.

Regards, John

John,
I have an entire dog and bitch and I seperate them at the first sign of season.... to a different house, and for an extended time... Obviously this case is a worry, as previously I would have been more concerned about mismating towards the end of a season and not before. Do you feel that there should be no mixed sex doggie households unless one party is spayed/neutered? I would be interested in your practical recommendations for such a situation.

A lot of people do successfully keep both sexes together but it I cannot be around 24 hours is something I never do. A lot of people on here have criticised me for saying that I never walk an in season bitch from the house, rather putting her in the car and taking her down the road to break the trail back to the house. Also I've been criticised for saying that I never allow my bitches free running when in season. The fact of the matter is that after over 50 years I have never had an unplanned litter.

A bitch needs to have, at the very least, a swollen Vulva before she would be able to mate. I normally spot this well before any discharge is seen. It is simple observation. To say "I never saw the mating" means that there was an in season bitch with an entire dog unsupervised! That is a recipe for an unwanted litter. If better control is not possible then yes! DO NOT KEEP BOTH UN-NUTERED DOGS AND BITCHES. It is as simple as that.

It is all very well sympathising but lets be honest for a change. Unwanted litters should not happen and if they do then the owner of the dogs needs to be a damn site more careful in future if they are ever to be looked upon as responsible.

Regards John

"A bitch needs to have, at the very least, a swollen Vulva before she would be able to mate."

Unfortunately not true -  my bitch mated with my stud dog when her vulva had gone back to normal - and this was 6 days after all signs of her season had finished :rolleyes: - luckily no pups resulted.

When my bitches are in season ( and they do tend to bring each other in at the same time) my boy always goes into my kennels. but at some stage you do have to reintroduce them . Similarly the start of a season is not always clear cut - some bitches have 'silent seasons' and do not swell up or bleed - again this is when even the most vigilant owner can find themselves with an unplanned litter.

In an ideal world then every litter would be the result of meticulous planning and with 'perfect' parents but I really don't think that these hip scores are too high and half brother sister matings are not unheard of in breeds with small gene pools - although admittedly NOT the norm in most breeds.

This owner seems to have the best of intentions for her unplanned pups and I think a bit of support would be more useful. :)

A friend of mine has both dogs and bitches, NONE of her girls swell or bleed during their seasons and the only time the boys show interest is the actually day they are ready for mating.  So accidents can happen.................just to clarify though, she's NEVER had an accident, but under these conditions it is almost impossible to tell when the girls are in season.

Really John? Like people breeding untested labs with no idea that they have bad hips for example? At least this owner KNOWS there may be a problem in the future and can prepare for it. So yes, I'd say things could easily be far worse. And, after all, whats done is done so there's little point being unsupportive or making the poster feel guilty - because that will just alienate the poster from asking anything further.

Yes Carla. This person does know they have bad hips and still allowed it to happen. I take it that you do not think that is irresponsible.

I don't think I said anywhere I do not think the poster has been responsible in allowing this to happen and yes, of course its not advisable to breed from a poorly scored/untested pair of dogs - BUT it is far better not to condemn in order to get advice to be listened to -and my advice is that this owner finds good pet homes for these dogs, with a contract and monitors their progress having explained to potential owners what happened. What do YOU suggest they do? Because I can't recall you offering her any advice on what to do with the litter?

What advice should I give? It's a bit late for the obvious step! She asked what to expect and I told her. Read it. I said that recessive gene problems could come out in the puppies. I also said that in view of the closeness of the breeding, hip problems could come out in the puppies. What more could I tell her to expect? I'm certainly not going to give her a pat on the back. She might want to advise the "Good pet homes" you are recomending her to sell to, to make sure they insure the puppies but more than that I could not recomend.

I think we all see this as a mistake, perhaps an avoidable error.  However, i think a little perspective is called for.  Someone that cares enough to post here, appreciates hip scores and potential problems deserves a little credit.  Think of all the puppy farms breeding in terrible conditions that dont give a damm about anything.

Some of you are so ruddy perfect its untrue.

Thats right Golden. I am perfect. As you say, this is <<an avoidable error>>

Yes , we all know that, but a little positive comment and less of the preaching would have been in order.

You are more than welcome to post a positive comment if you can think of one Golden, but is it not better to tell it as it is? There is a strong risk that these puppies will contract an inherited ailment. That is fact. They could go down with PRA and end up blind. They could inherit bad hips and spend a life of pain. These are facts and this is the result of an accident which should not have happened.

Yes, I know the worst might not happen, the puppies may be healthy, but with a little more care this accident should not have happened.

John

Please do not tell me what to do, or I may have to start telling you to stop being rude, abrupt and sanctimonious in your posts.

You have done that in the past Carla so I am not exactly bothered by your remarks this time.

But try and take the message on board John.  We all appreciate that it shouldn't have happened, but lets work with the problem, not allienate yet another poster.

So where is your positive comment then Golden? You cannot critisise me without offering an alternative comment to the guest or it would sound as if you are just taking a pop at me for the sake of it.

Or are you?

John

I have no CONSTRUCTIVE comments to make, but that is clearly my point.  I think only CONSTRUCTIVE answers were called for.

The whole point Golden is that I answered the guest's question. The guest posted telling us what had happened and at the end said:-

<< Can anyone give me some sound, sensible advice on what my options are and what problems I may face.>>

If you read my first post I answered that question. I told the guest what inherited problems to expect and also said that with luck the puppies would not inherit them and would be healthy.

From than on the topic went down hill with people lining up to have a pop at me. Carla in a roundabout way called me rude, abrupt and sanctimonious, and not for the first time I might add. You yourself said I was "So ruddy perfect its untrue! That little lot of rambling was more than a little inflammatory don't you think? And all after I gave the guest chapter and verse on what to expect!

Regards, John

I will not rise to an argument John, but please take on board the comments below.

My concern would not be for this poster or the bitch, who I'm sure will manage just fine, but for the poor families who will pay for these pups because they are the ones who will have the expense, worry and potential upset of caring for these (accidental) pups!  The average family looking for a pet will have no comprehension of what they are taking on, even if it is explained to them.:(
Having owned a grooming parlour for 16 years, I have seen first hand the worry and anguish felt by families who have bought badly bred pups.

Clearly.

And people on here wonder why CD has a reputation like it has :rolleyes:

I've always found that the majority of people on this board encourage good breeding practice and I hope it stays that way!

Me to Melodysk.

Are you BLIND, read the other posts, the majority agree YOU are being unduly harsh and you should let it drop.  Its YOUR type of postings that give this board its reputaion.

Come on guys this is getting too personal again, lets take some chill pills.

I never called anybody so ruddy perfect its untrue Golden. That was your post

No, but you said "I am perfect".

Arr, but this is true Carla!

I love Golden Retrievers.

Exactly my point Golden :rolleyes:

WOOOOSH

The point sailing over someones head there I think :rolleyes:

I'm sorry to hear, sounds to me like you have tried your best, and we all no that mistakes do happen and we are not perfect! 

John I would like to see you shut up on this one because I find you are being rude to this poster who has come on here for advice.  I do not keep bitches seperate from dogs till the show signs (or dogs start pestering too much the bitch gets upset).  The poster to me sounds like she wants the best, understands there may be a problem and wants ADVICE NOT CRITISIM!

Now half brother/sister matings are common with the right lines being put together at the right time (we were planning to do this)

Back to the poster now, Have the puppies (you really have no other choice) and try you best to sell them to pet homes, maybe even show if they are good enough.  

Please be aware though, christmas is coming up and people may want puppies as presents so be very careful when selling them!

Good luck, I would like to know how you get on so keep us posted.

John - pour yourself a glass of the amber nectar, and just let it go!

I can see where you are coming from - when you have taken so much trouble not to breed until the time is right - and then the time wasn't right for your girl - it must be so galling when this sort of thing happens!   And as you say, it's labradors again!

However, reading between the lines, "guest" is absolutely mortified - and I don't think it will happen again in this case - she knows the potential repercussions in this breeding, and has come to us for a little bit of support that she is doing the right thing in not aborting the litter (this is my reading of the post, anyway).    She knows that she is going to have problems in finding the correct homes for them - and I wouldn't mind betting that arrangements have already been made for the male to take a trip to the vet's !

I do agree with hammering the message home - but I would be very surprised, from the original post, if there were to be a "repeat" performance on this mating!

Cheers

Margot

A friend of mine who bred a litter of rotts last year after having all the necessary health checks  carried out  (her bitch was a 2:1 and sire was 4:4 and no bad hip scores to be seen in the pedigree), has had the uneviable task this week of taking one dog from the litter (sold to a friend luckily)to be pts at 18 months old.  He had the most horrendous hip score almost of the scale and was in pain and getting aggresive because it.

Because of this I have to say if this was my bitch and  accidents do happen (sorry John but they do it has happened to me in the past through  a cage!!!) I would be very seriously considering what to do with the resulting puppies.

I think my course of action would be very dependent on amount of live puppies. 

I would seriously be considering reducing the amount of puppies when they were born, to give a more manageable amount to home correctly.  Make absolutely sure that all people interested in the puppies were very very well informed of the nature of HD and the costs involved if the puppies did have it. I certainly would not register the litter or sell them with a pedigree of any sort.

If they were still interested and I was 100% sure that they were aware of the consequences of having one of these puppies I would be letting them have one in exchange for a donation to Labrador Rescue, I would insist that they agreed to either castration or spaying as soon as it was possible to do so. I would put this in writing, stating the exact circumstances of the puppies existence, together with hip scores of parents, etc.  this is from a legal angle, as otherwise you risk litigation in the future.

and I would certainly consider either the possibility of castration for the dog, or at the very least separate the bitch and the dog from Day One of her next season.

1/2 brother 1/2 sister matings are a very useful tool in breeding but only if the breeder knows the history behind them throughly as is prepared to cull if things go wrong.

I agree with Margot John, go have a drop of the amber nectar and chill.  Easier said than done I know because you are so passionate about your breed, but better for your blood pressure.

OH GEE! WASN'T THERE A TOPIC AT ONE OR MORE TIMES ABOUT SPAYING AND NEUTERING PET DOGS? AND WASN'T IT THE "AMERICANS" WHO DO THIS MORE AND PUSH FOR IT.... AND WASN'T IT THE AMERICANS WHO WERE BELITTLED FOR SPAYING AND NEUTERING THEIR PET DOGS? AND HOW ABOUT ALL THE FALSE MEDICAL INFORMATION THAT SOME OF YOU DISHED OUT REGARDING HEALTH AND TEMPERAMENT RAMIFICATIONS OF SPAYING/NEUTERING? WHEN ARE YOU PEOPLE GOING TO CATCH ON AND START SPAYING AND NEUTERING YOUR PET DOGS? HELLO???????

You know what always annoys me?  the find pet homes bit!  Somebody through their lack of controlling the situation, will sell these pups to poor people wanting an active, outgoing family pet, which is what a Lab is all about.  It is they who will have to face all the heartache if these dogs are crippled, it is they who face the upset of watching their pet in pain, it is they who may face horrendous vet bills.  NOT the breeder who's fault it is in the first place for not making 100% sure his/her bitch was safe. No, he/she will sell them all, be done with it, because I am damn sure they won't be in a position to keep them all and take responsibility for these puppies themselves!
Dawn.

Dawn

There is no problem seeling to pet homes IF the new onwers know everything.  It is then there choice if they have the pup or not.  As for bad hips coming out.  our bitch is out of two dogs with low hipscores, the g.parents have good hipscores, her siblings have good hips but guess what?  we now own a bitch with the second highest hipscore in the breed! we have since looked at the x-rays ourselves as we didn't believe it but it was true.  perfect even hips, excellent mover, but a total of 75

I heard of a story where I high hip scoring dog was used at stud (why I will have no-idea), one of his children was 0:0.  I don't know about the others admitidly!

We won't know what these puppies will turn out like, and hips we won't know for at least 18 months, but I think she is expecting 4 pups.  These could turn out to be the 4 healthiest labs ever born, its possible!

hang on a minute dawn!!!
who says they are going to be cripples?
my dog has a hip score of 42 & is not a cripple!

if you could see the number of fat lab puppys around here going for walks for hours & hours,this is what causes problems

There are god knows how many dogs out there being bred and sold to pet homes without being tested - how many are actually "crippled" with HD because their parents weren't tested?? That doesn't make breeding from high scores right - but please, lets get some perspective! There are FAR worse situations for pups to be sold from than this one. IT WAS A MISTAKE AND MISTAKES HAPPEN!

Hip scoring is not an exact science and providing the owner explains the situation fully I don't think they'll have a problem finding good pet homes who will take these pups on. Having a go at the owner now is a bit like shutting the door after the horse has bolted. People come on here for support and advice - not condemnation.

thats what i wanted to say chloeH,but yours came out better!

:)

The people on this site are getting a very bad reputation. Soon there will be the occasional visitor posting and when they get a hostile response they won't join. Membership will fall and that would be a great shame because this is by far the most informative dog site I know of - there are more collective years of experience here than anywhere else. People do not like to be met with hostile and aggressive and rude responses - it makes them defensive and they do not listen - they then go off and slate the site elsewhere. 

Hi,

Just want to point something out here.
Even if this was careful planned mating with low hipscores of dam and sire and from generations beyond them it still possible to throw puppies with high hipscores.Just as it is possible for higher scoring dogs to produce puppies with good low hips scores.
Genetics is not an exact science and we cant control nature entirely we can only do best we can with health schemes available.
To be heonest the Sire is t0tal 23 and dam is 8,this is not the end of the world and does suggest the puppies could be born with HD ,THEY COULD BE APUPPY IN THE LITTER EVEN IF THE SCORES WERE EVEN LOWER THAN THIS born with HD.
And you wont know until those puppies are old enough to be  hipscored.
You have both dogs available when those puppies go to their new puppies ,you explain the situation ,you show t
new owners the health certs.You regester the litter and place endorsements for breeding and export and also offer a full after sale s service in that whatever th ereason you will take any puppy or dog back.Also sellthe puppies with insurance so that new owners have the option of continuing this.

No breeder can gurantee puppies will be free from HD even if the Dam or Sire were exceptionly low scoring,obviously IF both dam and sire were high scoring and beyound them was high scoring there is an increase risk the puppies maybe not all of them will be.

Briony