Ok, this might be a bit long, but I am just sooooooooo angry with what happened tonight. I took Trinity (14 weeks) to her first puppy class today, and was really looking forward to it, telling myself that it was going to be fun with friendly instructors and puppies for her to mingle with... but this is what happened:

1) walked in the door and Trinity was immidiately leapt on and barked at by a very NOT puppy (i.e. grumpy older dog who needed socialising <fair enough... but at a puppy's first ever class???>). This understandably made her a little apprehensive about going any further.

2) was immediately told that a harness was not allowed and she needed a collar. Instructor was disgusted that I didn't have one with me and so promptly choked Trin with one. I couldn't even put a finger between the collar and her neck, but apparently this was normal for a training situation?  :-o

3) Trin still not completely sure, but we were made to sit next to a very boisterous, bouncy  staffie (nothing against them, that's their nature :-)  ) which made Trin hide under the chair. Instructor again thoroughly disgusted with Trin and so made to move in disgrace to the other side of the room.

4) Start teaching dogs to sit in a VERY roundabout way that involved holding the collar and jerking the other hand above the puppy's head while yelling SIT in very high pitched voice (Trin will quite readily do a sit with no elaborate motions or voices, but this again was not acceptable). She didn't really feel like coming out from under the chair, as all other 16 dogs (yes 16! isn't that a bit too many??? And only about half were actually puppies) in the room were jumping around trying to grab treats out of hands and making the most horrendous racket. I was quite happy to let her lie there and watch it all, knowing full well she's capable of a sit anyway, but oh no. She must be dragged out from under the chair with the collar choking her - she musn't be mollycoddled you see.... grrrr grrr grrrr. Since when was letting your puppy take a little time to get used to such an atmospehere mollycoddling?

Anyway, at the end of the night, Trinity was the only puppy there that would quietly do what she was told with having to glue a treat to the front of her nose, but this apparantly wasn't good enough. Despite doing a near perfect heel (which none of the other dogs came even close to) we were still told off because at the end of the exercise instead of sitting on my left hand side she had the audacity to proudly sit in front of me... shock horror, what a bad puppy she is!

Now, Trinity has been very well socialised until now and has taken absolutely everything in her stride. Met lots of other dogs, horses, cows, pedestrians, cars, buses, trains, fireworks and  has been completely bombproof. Despite everything that was going on in the class, she wasn't cowering and shaking and weeing all over the floor, it was more like she just didn't like so many other dogs in such a confined place misbehaving themselves. If I thought I could get away with it I probably would have preferred to hide under the chair too! I couldn't hear myself think. I really don't know whether to go back, especially as I disagreed with so many aspects of it.

Am I being oversensitive? Is this a normal training class situation? Why should I not allow her to wear a harness? What is the purpose of making silly sweeping gestures and shouting in shrill voices? Both her and my other dog sit to a quiet word, or subtle hand gesture (I'm not against hand gestures at all.. but it was like you were trying to cut the dog's head off but missed by a  couple of inches. A Karate chop, with the same speed as a karate chop too! If I was in public I would be embarrased to go through all that hullaballoo just to get a sit out of them!)

Sorry it's so long, but I am still absolutely fuming, despite the fact that it was 4 hours ago. Feel free to put me straight if I am blowing it all out of proportion!  Thanks 

:-)

Well you're a politer persn than I am I would have walked out as soon as they attempted to put a collar on my pup. Askng me to bring a collar beforehand fair enough or even asking me nicely to not let her wear a harness next week fine. But the other things on top - No I would have been out of the door.
And I don't think from what you have said you are being over sensitive.
Karen    

Actually I would have told her where to stick her collar. i don't use harnesses & use rolled normal collars & have done for over 30 years I would offer a correctly fitting(half check) collar if the handler didn't want to buy one froma shop(no profit as they are sold at cost)

I don't do shouting at puppies either

Thanks Karen :-)  I agree if I had been told beforehand to bring a collar I would have been happier. I still don't understand why I need to though.

Elle

me thinks you should find another training club. We frequently have 16 dogs at our training sessions - new comers are always treated with care. We have a lot of junior handlers as well as puppies and adult dogs. We have a range of dogs, Weims and GSD, Labradors and Spaniels,and terriers and pointers and retrievers etc. and our trainer is very holistic in her approach.

We laught loads at our training club and everyone is welcomed. However we once attended a club with our working lab and we were treated dreadfully and made to feel quite stupid. In fact, my daughter aged 8 at the time was told, that  "we don't allow children under 12, so sit in the corner and don't come back" - needless to say we didnt.

I can only echo what others have said. It is a rubbish class with a rubbish trainer, and you are not being at all over-sensitive.  Our puppy classes accept pups up to the age of five months. The importance of socialising with other older, larger/smaller dogs is emphasised but  it is so important that young pups are not overwhelmed while they are learning that classes are kept small and they mix only with youngsters. Older pups/dogs start in 'beginners'. Find another trainer and, if you are not entirely happy, walk out. Training should be fun for you and your pup.

I think this post just emphasises how important it is to attend a class without your dog to see if their methods suit you and your dog.  I'd be voting with my feet!

Yep I wouldnt go back sounds awful :( Fagan went to his first puppy class at 8 weeks he was too scared,  to do anything (I think he was overwhelmed by the other dogs - about 10 - all pups) so I just sat on the floor with him and let him watch, and he fell asleep   each week he gradually built up his confidence and he was the best behaved pup in class - dont know what went wrong :rolleyes:

Lots of clues that the trainer is a fool, the biggest one being that the pup was dragged out from under a chair - a sensitive pup would be a nervous wreck if it was treated like that

The collar fitting sounds far too tight.

I would agree; vote with your feet!!

Lindsay
X

I'd definately find another class. In our bitches first ever class she also sat under the chair just looking on in interest (though not actually wanting to join in) which was perfectly fine with the trainer - they wanted to give her time to get used to the new environment (though this was a puppy socialisation class, so she was only 9 weeks at the time, though they do basic training). By the second lesson she was full of herself and really enjoying it. In our puppy class (and in our training class) they were never more than 10 in a class, though a training there are several other dogs always around (ie waiting for the next class, just finished the previous class etc).

At our training class we are allowed to have our dogs stand in front of us rather than sit (though we do get them to sit at our side). I just explained to the trainer before we started that as I was thinking of showing I had trained them to free stand in front of me and was this okay (as everyone else in the class had them sitting in front) The trainers were more than happy for me to continue as I had been and that when they called for the dogs to sit in front, mine could stand. Like yourself, I use subtle hand gestures but would not like to use the ones you are describing :rolleyes:

What a dreadful experience for you both.  Even if there is not another club you can go to, don't go back there.  You are not being over sensitive, just very sensible to recognise it for what it is.

Try contacting the APDT for a list of training classes, hopefully they will have one in your area. www.apdt.co.uk.  I have heard very good reports about them.

When you find another class, explain to the trainer about your bad experience and hopefully they will be able to gently build your pups confidence again.

Good Luck
Sandra

I expect you wish now that you had walked out, but at the time felt unsure.  That has happened to us all - the next day we really kick ourselves for putting up with something. I am quite happy for my puppy just to sit with me and watch first time, to get used to what is going on.  What breed have you got, as I know some trainers "don't like" certain breeds because they have a reputation for thinking and don't behave like robots. 

Whatever you do, don't go back there.  Your puppy sounds to have been well adjusted and socialised before she went, so give her a few weeks to forget her bad experience with other dogs.  Let her meet others in social situations and then could you ask people you meet on walks if they can recommend a training class.  Vets often have "puppy parties", where innoculated puppies get used to each other and do elementary training.  You could ask at your vets if they can recommend a class.  Before you join another one, ring the trainer and tell her/him what breed you have and try and gauge their reaction. 

Thanks for your support everyone! I honestly did want to walk out as soon as they dragged her out by the collar, but as it was my first ever class I thought it best to see it through, although I have regretted it ever since. She's a GSD x malamute, and the instructor didn't seem impressed with this, despite the fact that the school logo has a head of a GSD! I did ask the vet for the number of puppy classes, but I could never get through on the number they gave, so I tried this one instead. I did wonder at the time why the vet didn't refer this club to me, and I should have asked! I'm going to spend the rest of the day finding new classes, but I wil be asking LOTS of questions this time and visiting it first!

Thanks again, I hope others out there will learn from my mistakes and vet any potential training club first!!

Elle   X

get out of there!!! what a nightmare!!!!
bet you anymoney their wont be 16 dogs there next week!!!

I agree that this is a bad class, and you shouldn't return. I would also mention it to your vet, so that he doesn't recommend it to anyone who might ask.

There is a fair point about the collar, though. As the law currently stands, every dog in a public place (and that includes the inside of your car while you're on the road) must wear a collar with attached owner ID. Whether you use a harness as well is your own decision, but your pup should have a collar on. But not so tight that you can't get two fingers between it and the dog's neck.

My rescued staffie (nearly 8 yrs old) has started training classes and he's the oldest in the class all the rest are puppies.  Our trainer is very good.  If your dog doesn't want to get involved then that's fine just let them go along at their own pace.  He does state that the dogs should wear collars but if you want to use a harness AS WELL then that's fine. 

We do have one pup in the class whi is very nervous and our trainer will lie on his belly and try to coax the dog out with a treat.  If the puppy backs away further then he will leave it alone.

I'd definately be looking for another training class if I were you

Is it not acceptable for the dog to have her id tags on her harness (which she does)? Does the law specifically state it HAS to be a collar? If so, surely my vet should have said something, as my other dog has also always worn a harness with tags attached and been to the vet several times.

I obviously don't want to be breaking the law! Does anyone know where the actual law is written so I can check that it has to be a collar.

Thanks

It is a collar & disc Currently, by law, all dogs must wear a collar and a clearly displayed tag bearing the name and address of the dog's owner when the dog is in public places[/] from this site

Law here.

surely as long as the tags are somewhere on the dog (ie. on a harness) then it should be ok ?

To the letter of the law no it has to be a collar

Thanks Jeangenie, the law there DOES say collar, but it doesn't say that it needs to be around their neck. I think I'll phone the vet tomorrow and ask.

Hi Nitody, just out of interest, were else would a dog wear a collar other than around it's neck? What did your vet say?
A

Hi Andi,

I just meant a loose interpretation of a collar could be a harness, especially as the law thing I read on the website was written in 1992, when harnesses weren't as common as they are now. I got the receptionist, and she seemed to think that as long as the tags are attached securely to the dog (and harnesses are often more secure than collars) then it's not a problem. I've got to take my 3 year old in for his booster shot this month, so I'll ask the vet again then

:-)

We have a young (16 week old) springer bitch at our classes who is so timid we didn't see her legs for weeks (she was that close to the floor all the time). But our trainer didn't mind, the dog was not forced in any way, and two weeks ago she walked around the class tail wagging and legs visible. Her owners were told to be patient and her confidence would come - the grin on the young girls face when she and her dog walked around the class was just wonderful.

I think it is a very good idea to go a class without the dog first and see if you are comfortable with their methods.

Good luck

Always a good idea to visit training classes even before you get your dog.

No one instructor can possibly cope with more than 8 dogs on their own; any more than that an assistant should be used.  For 16 dogs I would expect a minimum of one instructor and two assistants.

Most halls are nowhere large enough to have enough space for this many dogs to keep them a comfortable distance from each other.

Just because someone sets themselves up as a dog trainer does not mean they can train clematis up a trellis!

There is no need to shout at dogs, they are not deaf and if they were it would be even more pointless.

Go club shopping!

There are talks underway to set up some sort of accreditation of trainers via the KC, I understand. This should at least make things a little better.

Daisy

Only if you CHOOSE to use them...............

Of course :)

Daisy

We have one trainer, and at least two assistants. I agree with Tohme that anyone can set themselves up as a trainer, so you must vet the training club and the individuals that run it.
Dogs have much better hearing than humans so why shout. It gets on my nerves when I meet other dog owners who do nothing but shout at their dog - usually with no reaction from the dog!!!!!

I think people who who shout are so lacking in natural authority it's the only way they can make animals or humans react :(

Hi, Most vet's should my now have a directory of A,P,D,T these are sent out free of charge. If your vet dosn't have one you can alway's go to there website. Cheers Viv

Thanks Vivian,

I got the APDT list of the website, and have worked through it, but wouldn't you know, all the puppy classes in my area are full! It's my own fault for not checking out the class beforehand, especially as I enrolled on it over a month ago now!  :-(

Hi Elle

I knew the other training class you went to was bad but I never realised it was this atrocious.   They should be shut down.   How many puppies have they ruined I wonder by these barbaric, dangerous and uneducated approaches.  Pulling a nervous puppy out from under a chair just once can be all it takes to put it off training classes for ever and give it a permanent fear of people and anything else in the enviroment, especially dogs.

There is nothing wrong with working your dog on a harness, it depends what you and the puppy are comfortable with.      As for straight sits and whether they sit in front or not, I can't see this matters for a pet/companion animal and anyway there are kind ways to teach a puppy where you would prefer it to sit.  How is the puppy 'sposed to know unless he is taught.

Yanking a puppy.  YIKES - WHY?????   Not only psychologically damaging but can do physical damage as well.  In the days when it was the norm to use yanks then puppies were not trained until at least 6 months old.

You have a perfectly normal and very well behaved puppy, and there is certainly no need to use anything other than kindness on her.

Wendy

Just an update for everyone else who offered their support. Took Trinity to her new class on Monday (thanks Wendy!) and she had an absolutely lovely time! Honestly can't tell you how much better it was than the other class! The instructor took her time to get to know Trinity and sat her next to the most appropriate dogs (only about 6 others). Didn't have any problems with her hiding under chairs as she was quite comfortable and happy. Can't wait till next week!!   :-)

:D :D :D :D  Brilliant :D :D :D :D

Should be even better when we put you in the right class!   Sorry about that Elle!  Great little puppy.   I like her.

Wendy

Fantastic news - doesn't it make such a difference.

Whilst on the subject of nightmare training classes, I have just enrolled a puppy on my Wednesday night class.   It has been ruined by a nightmare so called 'Puppy Socialisation Class'.   The 'class' was run by a vet nurse at a vet practice and there was no guidance whatsoever to preventing  and dealing with normal puppy problems like play biting, getting dog used to handling/restraint etc.

This poor puppy [and the inexperienced owners] were given no help on their individual problems and the puppies were just allowed to play willy nilly [creating problems] and were introduced to clicker training [mnot very well] and now the owners have a nightmare puppy on their hands.

So much damage has been done to  this pup through do-gooders without the necessary knowledge who think it is great to run puppy classes.

The owners have almost got a permanent bed booked at our local A + E Department.   A bad puppy or training class is worse than no class at all.

the owners are now sh*t scared of this puppy who could be a dear little thing if an inexperienced vet nurse had not been running pup.soc.classes.

The poor puppy is confused and unhappy and the look in his eyes is heartbreaking.

Wendy [who can't do smilies but cares about dogs]

People are always amazed when I tell them that we don't let them all off to play together and rough house. The owners think that is what is good for them to 'socialise'.(: I wonder why they think this, when children are not allowed to bully each other in the name of playing)? Maybe we trainers/behaviourists should write a piece in the papers to let new and old owners of new puppies what is expected to be found at classes run for canines.:)

One of my pet hates is vet nurses who don't understand puppies, holding so called socialisation classes. All too often the pups are allowed to just run amock, strong confident ones bully shy ones, and so on. I would advise any owner to start socialisation as soon as possible, but to be wary of these classes and to try and get in with a proper puppy socialisation class with a good trainer (which may mean booking up as soon as you get your puppy!).

Lindsay
X

Thanks again everyone. Just hope others out there learn from my mistakes and don't repeat them! I have to agree with Wendy... she's a lovely little puppy ;-)

:-D   :-D  :-D  A much happier Elle and Trinity  :-D  :-D  :-D

I have to agree. I didn't attend a "puppy" party with Sparky as he was old enough to go straight to classes when we got him, but with Busby we took him along to one at our (former) vets. What a nightmare. The pups were running amok - Busby at 7 weeks thought he was in heaven, racing round like a nutter and terrifying all the others until a tiny little pup had a go at him, and trying to hump everything. Would you believe the vet nurse started saying how important it was to have him neutered if he "was going to be like this". At 7 weeks! Needless to say we didn't bother again until he started classes a few weeks later. :)

Hi Elle and Trinity - I just wanted to say - I might see you around, because soon we'll also be going to Wendy's classes in Eastbourne - I watched her class on Monday evening - the puppy one.  I also wanted to say that I totally sympathise with you and feel bad for your experience.  I have been watching classes before getting our Weimaraner pup in a few weeks, to find one whose approach and methods I agree with.  I've watched 7 classes and out of all of those, there has been only 1 trainer - Wendy - who I want to train with.  At the other classes, I've seen water squirted in dogs' faces to stop barking, leads yanked about to 'stop' pulling (ha- never seen this work and 'stop' pulling!!), one dog hit over the nose with the end of a lead, a shy GSD pulled out from under a chair he just wanted to hide under, pups forced into downs and sits rather than lured, etc etc.  Anyway, Wendy told me you'd posted here so I came along and thought I'd say hello and that I sympathise.  But at least you had the good sense to recognise that and get out - plenty of other owners just keep going along to those awful classes.  I have had to bite my tongue in so many of them.  I walked out of the last one halfway through.  So - even though we live in Brighton and don't have a car, I'm going to travel to Eastbourne, to Wendy's classes.  And I feel incredibly lucky to have found her.

Off topic I know but I can do the smilies now - see :D    :p   

Wendy

Way to go Wendy  :-)  *clap*  ... wish there was a clapping smiley!

*At the other classes, I've seen water squirted in dogs' faces to stop barking, leads yanked about to 'stop' pulling (ha- never seen this work and 'stop' pulling!!), one dog hit over the nose with the end of a lead, a shy GSD pulled out from under a chair he just wanted to hide under, pups forced into downs and sits rather than lured, etc etc.*

Wow...ALL of the above happened in the other class I went to!!! :-<  Maybe mine was the little GSD who was pulled out from under her chair! Hopefully will see you and your puppy soon then.. I love weimeraners!

That would be a coincidence if you two had already met

Wendy