Hello everyone - sorry this is so long but here goes...
I've got myself in a state about my 17 week old Welsh Springer pup. She is very bright and extremely lively and we'd been doing well I thought until attending the local training class. I was a bit apprehensive about going because they advocate some methods I don't like (scruffing pup for playbiting and leash jerks for walking to heel - both of which I've avoided doing) but as the majority is positive stuff with treats and I have no transport to reach any other classes I thought it was too important not to go as this is my first dog and everyone says it's important to go to socialise with other dogs etc.
Unfortunately my pup goes wild when she sees the other dogs (I haven't yet managed to find her any dog playmates) and just leaps around uncontrollably a lot of the time and seems barely able to do most of the things she does at home (I have been clicker training her myself). I suspect it is quite stressful for her? I know she has to get used to the distraction of other dogs but wonder if it's unrealistic to expect this during her only contact with them and without any free play as a reward (They are not allowed to play freely in the class).
Now we have been 'labelled' by the trainer... My pup is 'dominant' and I have to exert myself as 'pack leader'. I don't believe the dominance stuff. I have a science background and it doesn't seem to add up but it's all beginning to get to me and I'm beginning to doubt myself as after all I have no experience of having a dog before so what if the trainer is right?? For example, my pup does jump up and playbite quite a lot and I haven't managed to stop her yet although her bite is most often quite light now and she stops sooner than she used to... but then this week I picked her up to carry her home after playing in a field (It's too far for her to walk all the way yet and I've no car.) and she made a fuss, biting my hands lightly but then suddenly lunged and bit me on the nose causing a nick which bled a bit... argh! I assumed at the time it was a protest - part of the dominance thing (really getting to me now!) but what if it was playfully meant? She was excited and my face was a nice big target next to hers after all!
Now I don't know what to think! Is my pup perfectly normal and the training class is undermining my confidence or am I being niave and the trainer is right? She told me my pup is a real handful and I will have a constant battle of wills with her. I don't know what 'normal' is so I don't know whether that's true or not! Help!! I need some advice from wise Champdog folk! And should I leave the class or if the trainer is right presumably that's the worst thing I could do?? I know I would have to make a big effort to find some dogs for her to play with if I did leave. My puppy goes mad when the trainer takes her from me in class and doesn't behave for her at all. I'm ashamed to say that the trainer did the dreaded (to me!) leash jerks on her before I could think of stopping her and my pup just carried on ignoring her (but she does walk with a loose leash for me - just not to heel). My only other 'problem' with her apart from playbiting is her excitement when visitors come round. She calms down eventually but is too hyper yet to sit (she tries but shakes with the effort and sometimes ends up weeing, poor thing) when they arrive and has to be segregated for a bit if she gets bitey - then allowed back in later. Other than that and trying to 'greet' everyone in the street when on a walk she is a little star - to me anyway... but am i deluding myself?? Need some sensible advice to get things in perspective...
Thanks to anyone managing to read all this!

Hi grommet,

I'm no 'expert' but it sounds to me as if you have a perfectly normal springer PUPPY :D  they are a handful at this age - some more than others :)

Sounds to me as if you are managing to acheive quite a bit with your 'dominant' pup ;) so the clicker training is working :D

WALKING ON A LOOSE LEAD :)  - at 17 weeks a puppy is unlikely to walk 'to heel' perfectly, although you will gain their attention if you try 'changes' (change direction every few steps, right angles, reverses, corners etc.) your pup will find this immense fun and will soon be watching you and walking close :D

GENTLE MOUTHING - surprising how many 17 week old puppies are still chewing strongly, the urge to chew things is very strong in many pups at this age and don't forget some are teething too.  If yours is mouthing gently then this is fantastic - Bite Inhibition is well on the way :D

Getting very excited with new dogs/people/visitors is not unusual at this age and springer pups do seem to get very excited.  You can see for yourself that she is trying to behave as she "shakes and wees" as she sits - classic pleased to see you puppy there :D :D

As for labelling you and your pup - words fail me, a trainer is supposed to give constructive advice, not undermine someone's confidence :(   And scruffing a pup for play biting.....:rolleyes:  Your methods are obviously working better than the trainers.

Have you read "The Perfect Puppy" by Gwen Bailey?  I think it would restore your confidence :)
Personally I would be looking around for another training class, if there isn't one then try ringcraft classes - they can be great for socialising puppies, not so much for free play, but for learning to be calmer around other dogs - but without the pressure of being 'trained' :)

Hope this helps a little
Dill

Hi there

I don't understand why some 'trainers ' undermine folk in this way - your pup sounds a perfectly normal delightful Springer PUPPY !! I would stop going to the training classes as they are making you anxious and see if you can pair up with another 'doggy' person to arrange some fun socialising and to do some joint training. perhaps some shared walks with other dog owners will help her to be less hyper around other dogs but do remember that she is still very young and needs time to mature mentally. Some breeds just take a litttle longer and Springers are certainly very 'busy' excitable dogs - My Belgian pups don't tend to go to formal training classes at this age as they are too 'sensitive' for the kind of training that I find is used there. I always socialise them in other ways and start their 'proper ' training classes much later.

Good luck she sound lovely :-D

Thankyou so much for your replies, Dill and Trevor... You have restored my confidence - it was beginning to get me down viewing my poor pup as a scheming megalomaniac (or whatever the dominant ones are meant to be) and it's great to be backed up in thinking that she is just young and silly after all! I will leave the class I think - it has been making me more and more anxious and taking the fun out of things... The trainer did say she thought I would 'get there in the end' but only after doing a lot of stuff involving doorways and ignoring my puppy for no reason, which all sounded depressing. (My puppy waits at doorways anyway as I taught her for safety reasons - and like anyone I have to ignore her pleas for cuddles quite often or I'd never get anything done!)
I have read The Perfect Puppy, Dill, and had been working through a lot of the things in there with my pup before I went to the classes. I've also got the Culture Clash book which I really like. I'm going to go back to the books for advice and concentrate on finding some local doggy folk for fun and training.
I'm not sure if there's a ringcraft class round here but there's an English Springer breeder who's a friend of a friend and I will try and make contact with her.
Thanks again - I feel much more relaxed already!

I agree with the others you have a normal happy out going puppy & I hate the D word, a lot of  trainers wouldn't know a truly D dog if they saw one ! i know because I had a German bred GSD who could have been dominant had he been owned by a novice owner who hadn't had a GSD before & who didn't have an alpha dog to put the pup in his place.

Follow the advice in the PP book & you will not go far wrong. Ringcraft is probably a better bet at present I must admit I do my show training before obedience as it is much easier for the puppy to grasp ;)

As for the door way & eating stuff LOL My boys always get fed before me in a morning as it takes me an hour to get going in a morning & my dogs breakfasts are prepared the night before

I have often dog sat a froends Welsh Springers, and yours sounds perfectly normal pup to me too :D

They can be a bit stubborn and not the most submissive of dogs, but I wouldn't say she was dominant from what you sy.

I hep out a Pet Obedience class, and find that with very excited pups just sitting out some of the class watching, and keeping the pup calm, by very slow gentle stroking, and a verys slow low tone means that the pup can calm enough to actually take in some training.

Unless the class is seriously regimented I would take little time outs when she gets too OTT, and do what you feel comfy with as long as it doesn't disrupt the class.

Of course if there is another class with a more laid back attitued I would change.

The advise about ringcraft is excellent, as she will leanr to calm down around other dogs while just waiting her turn, will be able to have somwe controlled kisses and hello's with other pups and adults, and the showing bit of being handled by the person acting as judge and trotting up and down will help with the greeting excitement, and the lead work.  It is also a relaxed place to be around other doggy folk.

You never know after a club match or two you may even be tempted to give showing a go :D  There are a number of peole who attend my Ringcraft with dogs that are not going to be shown, just for the socialisation.

Hi Brainless :-) It's funny that you should mention taking time-outs from the class as I'd been doing that mostly to try and cool my puppy down in the physical sense... The hall was pretty hot and the puppies were in there for an hour so without having anything to drink and after hurling herself at the other dogs my pup would soon have her tongue hanging out and crazed eyeballs. So I would sneak outside with her a couple of times - I think it did help a bit.
It would be nice to attend a ringcraft class from the sound of it. I will definitely ask around - although in a small town like this it could be run by the same person!

There are several things you could do:

1 Leave this training class, IMHO, a bad trainer is NOT better than no trainer at all.

http://www.apdt.co.uk/list_trainers.asp

The above link will put you in touch with kind, effective training in your area.

2 Review your dog's diet, make sure that does not contain things that may be contributing to his state of mind eg sugar, colourings, additives etc, FWIW if you prefer a dry food I would recommend Burns (they send free samples and they deliver free) or if you prefer wet food Naturediet, available from Pets at Home.

3 Arm yourself with some good training books; I would recommend Walk With Me written by Kay Laurence which is an EXCELLENT book re training puppies or adult dogs NOT to pull on the lead etc.  Available from: [link]http://www.learningaboutdogs.com/shop/books&vids.html[/link]

The perfect puppy by Gwen Bailey, The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson.

IMHO there is absolutely NO need to scruff, jerk on the leash, to achieve compliance from your dog, this "trainer" obviously suffers from a lack of confidence in herself if she need to exert this type of "authority" on a dog.  Your dog is a perfectly normal Springer Spaniel puppy, don't listen to all that twaddle about "dominance", doorways or anthing else, that has diddly squat to do with dog training.  This sort of outlook is a hangover from lots of old books or new ones by equally misguided "trainers".

Relax, have fun, you have not got total control over your dog yet, but dog training is just a mechanical skill, which relies on observation and timing and these skills need to be practised and honed before they are perfected........ just like anything else.

Vote with your feet, each new "victim" this trainer has will just reinforce her methods.......... unfortunately.

Good Luck

Ahhhh, typical springer pup :D  Where are you based grommet?
Sarah
PS Any 'trainer' scruff my dog - I'd scruff them and see how they liked it ;)

Thankyou tohme! Another person telling me to leave the class helps spur me on to do just that! I will be unable to avoid the trainer as I live in a small town in a rural area but I have now thought of an excuse why I can no longer attend as one of the 'victims' so should get away with it, hopefully.
I will look into diet - have just mindlessly followed on with what the breeder recommended so that could be worth checking.
Regarding the book recommendation... Great! An excuse to buy another book! Don't know why but I love reading dog training books - just wish I knew how to put it all into practice as well!
I'm reassured by you saying that scruffing and leash jerks are unnecessary. I was horrified when the trainer did the leash jerks on my pup in class as she looked like she was being violently swung around by her neck as she leapt about frantically while the trainer told her off and growled at her (why??). I don't understand why these particular classes are recommended by everyone in the area (except that they seem to be the only ones available). Cards are even handed out at the vets when you take your puppy for its vaccinations, thus ensuring a steady stream of 'victims'! (Good word by the way!) :-)

Hi Sarah - I'm based in the Yorkshire Dales so quite remote really... Is it too far for you to come and scruff the trainer for me? :-D

I agree, leave the class. Your beautiful Welsh Springer is totally normal and not dominant :)

Take a peek at www.dog-dominance.co.uk to reassure yourself. There are some good trainers in Yorkshire that i know of but they may be miles from you of course; i would suggest though that a once a month session with a good trainer is much better than a once a week with a bad one :)

Try to habituate and socialise your dog as much as possible - we have a working cocker youngster in our class and we do have free play, but it is supervised and has been specially included in the lesson because the dog belongs to an elderly lady who never lets it off the lead as she lacks confidence; she thought a working cocker would be easier than the setters she was used to in her younger days

Good luck - let us know how yo get on?

Lindsay
x

I have to agree with most of the responses, you have a very typical puppy.  Most puppies of any breed, will mouth your hands, grab your hair, and yes, even bite your nose! They will make a grab for anything they think they can get their tiny teeth into, especially when they start teething. 
I also echo most of the advise given so far. Although I train with possitive re-enforcement, I will give a pup a quick, gentel, shake with the scruff if it mouths and follow it with a firm 'No', it's only what the mother would do.  When my young dog (who is 2 yrs old) steps out of line, his mother soon sorts him out!
We have puppy partys in my area, which are good for teaching young pups how to get along with other dogs in a controlled, but relaxed environment.  It may be worth asking around at your local pet shop or your vets to see if there is one in your area.
Please don't get down upset about your pup, we all go to training classes at some point and we don't all agree with 100% of the things we are told.  You need to speak to people about your concerns and then take a little piece of advise from each person, apply it to your situation and make it work for you.  Best of luck with your pup.

i totally agree with all of this and can personally confirm that your puppy is just being a puppy with all the behaviour you mentioned. My puppy is a basset hound and is 20 weeks and is doing all of that stuff!
Deb

Hi Grommet - I'm afraid that is a little to far for me to scruff a trainer ;)  I'm in sunny Brizol :D  Just that I know a couple of fantastic trainers in the South West, they are clicker trainers who do some very good socialisation stuff with compatible dog's, they then translate your doggy's language for you :D
Best of luck
Sarah :)

:p :p :p

I want to know what official qualifications your 'trainer' has. Has she had experience with Springers before? As has been said, they can be a handful, and take a long time to mature. I'd leave the club and carry on training her myself if I were you. It sounds as though you have got off to a good start with the clicker training. Have you tried contacting her breeder for some help? I would have thought she or he would have a good idea of what is normal and could give you some good free advice. Good luck, and remember to enjoy your pup, they grow up before you know it!

:-) Thanks Lindsay - have checked the 'dominance' site and feel a lot better. I will let you know how I get on!
- hopevalley, those puppy parties sound nice - I wish we had them here... On the subject of the little sharp teeth, my puppy has this week lost two and another is about to come out... definitely in the throes of teething!
- ClaireH - I don't know what training qualifications this trainer has but I know she is highly regarded as a breeder. Possibly she isn't sympathetic to the crazier, zappier breeds like springers as they are the opposite of her breed... I know when I enrolled she asked me why I was making life hard for myself with the breed I'd chosen... and I wasn't sure if she was joking or not so didn't know whether to be offended! Personally I love the exuberance of springers and like to fill my life with as much activity as possible... die of exhaustion not boredom! :-D (And yes I should contact the breeder but I was trying not to pester her too much and suspected I was getting things out of perspective really!)
- Trevor - I am mystified: what do the little green faces mean?? :-)

Hi there, welcome to Champdogs,

A young Springer puppy, being naughty, surely not!!!

The first thing I would do is vote with your feet and leave this trainer.  She may be a good breeder, but it doesn't sound like she's a very sympathetic instructor.

I took a new class of puppies today, and was REALLY happy to see a little springer amongst them.  She did all the things that young spaniels are supposed to do, BUT by the end of the first lesson, she was walking on a loose-ish lead around other puppies, so it can be done.  Admittedly she was being rewarded with some of my home made liver cake, but there is no need to 'bully' a puppy of this age to do anything, a little gentle persuasion maybe.  
Any trainer should never single you out and make you feel small or embarrassed about your dogs behaviour, I bet if you asked her she would admit that her pups were not exactly angels from day one.  If all puppies were automatically perfect, then I would have a very boring job, if I had a job at all!
Instructors should relish the oportunity to train lots of different breeds, if I know that I've got a pup/novice coming which is a breed I havent had before,then I make sure that i speak to someone who has the knowledge, OR do some reading up on the breed. Sure there as some breeds that are more challenging than others, but an instructor shouldn't make you feel that your dog is too much trouble to teach, you should enjoy your training.

Anyway, enough ranting on, I think that you've pretty much made up you're mind about your club, you just neede someone else to tell you what you already knew.

Enjoy your puppy, they're not small for very long and I'm sure in a while you'll laugh at her antics!!

Ali :)

Hi Ali :-) You sound like a nice person - I wish I could come to your training classes! I do normally laugh at my puppy - it was just that the constant repetition of the dominance thing was doing funny things to my mind and I was beginning to feel wary of her - poor little sprat. And you're right - I did really want to leave the classes as I was beginning to dread each one... The stony silence that greeted our first attempt at walking to heel sticks in my mind... I was told to walk really quickly so set off at 900mph across the hall with everyone else watching at the sides and sure enough my playful puppy wondered what had come over me, what great new game might this be, and proceeded to leap up and down, dangling first from my jumper and then from my trouser leg, as we whizzed excitingly along... I stopped and laughed but no-one else did - argh! It's nice to know that it could actually be fun. :-)  

Hi Grommet -  they were in reply to Rozzer's post - agreeing about scruffing the trainer :) - it does read a bit 'odd' when replies end up in the wrong place !!!.