i have been showing for 4 yrs but dad been showing for 15 have made a lot of freinds and took rough with the smooth, but last week dad asked to use top show judges dog at stud on his 2 yr old bitch, when he asked about the price she said how about a ticket at next champ show. i dont know why im suprised, but im afraid this is where shows are heading , favours being returned, and people who have worked really hard ( including new comers) losing out. sorry to rant i know everyones not like this
  its a dog eat dog world xx

I don't get it,
                I thought the stud dog owner is the judge?? you pay the stud dog owner, don't you???

yes judge in question owns a top winning dog that dad wanted to use, instead of paying her for use of dog she offered 1st place to our dog regardless of competition. hope this is clear

I don't get it either. Sorry!

does anyone understand me

No - sorry

Daisy

Well, it"s confusing, I cant see what the stud dog owner/judge gets out of this arrangement?  Your dad gets the dogs service for free and a guaranteed place at a show?  So the other person is giving away dogs service and throwing away her reputation?  You could hardly call this favour judging - I woaudl say she has gone completely potty!
bye
Gwen

I think so - but I don't understand what the judge would gain from giving your Dad's dog a win - why wouldn't she sooner have the money for the stud fee? 
  Hilda

I assume the posters dad is judging at a champ show next year and the stud dog owners would rather have a ticket then a fee for use of their dog.

I would have expected that the stud's owner wanted a CC at the show next year where father is judging

That should be reported to the KC :(

No, it doesn't read as though the stud dog owner (the judge) would get the ticket - she would be giving the ticket to the bitch's owner (poster's Dad) - so why I can't imagine!  She's the one that's offered the 1st place instead of them paying her a stud fee.

It would make sense if her dad was the judge

now i'm confused! what does the judge get out of this then? she won't get payed for the use of her dog and gives away a 1st place....or have i read it wrong? :-)

I still think her dad is judging tickets next year.  It is just a coincidence that the stud dog owner is a ticket judge too.

This is a bit like playing Cluedo :D

:-D @ sandra

I don't unsderstand either; but I am enjoying reading the possible answers :)

Karen

I think I get it?

Your dad asks to use stud dog on his bitch, stud dog is owned by top judge in breed.
When asking about a stud fee, the owner of said stud dog says, "how about a ticket when you next judge" or words to that effect.  Am I right?  You scratch my back.................................
Dawn.

That's what I said :D

sorry guys sandrah and dawn b managed to get there in end , dont know how  though ,i totally messed it up, forgot to mention dads a judge to, im new to computers cant seem to type what i need to say. doh

Ahhhh....Interesting is your Dad looking elsewhere for his stud?

Or do you think the owner of the stud dog was joking albeit in bad taste

Karen

   hes looking else where although that dog is exactly what his bitch needs, after doing a bit of investigating hes noticed lots of her recent wins have been under judges who have used his dog or are best pals, the thing is theres a strong chance my dad would have give it a ticket anyway.

Sarstaff, I think that you would be as well to remember that this is the www. If this were my breed, which  is numericaly large and not Staffs ;)
             I would know exactly who you were referring to, particularly at championship level.

This is the kind of thing equals (both judges) in a breed might say jokingly, and maybe you are just taking a flippant comment too literaly.  I would prefer to think that :D

Oh come on, you all know it goes, in all breeds to some extent.  Anybody who shows dogs and has done so for a while knows how crooked it is, there is little point looking at it through frosted glass!  I mentioned not long back about heart shaped ring cards didn't I, did you not think that was a little sus?
Dawn.

<<<Anybody who shows dogs and has done so for a while knows how crooked it is, there is little point looking at it through frosted glass! >>>

Dawn surely not!!! ;)

You mean that not all judges are honest :-o that's news to me (not);)

:D :D @ Lel!
Dawn.

Crooked :) a little bit bent maybe but crooked ;) Tut Tut.

Although I think you should remember, as someone has said that this is forum is open to anyone and be careful what you say. Just a tip :)

Karen 

Hi karen.
Why should people be careful if its the truth?  all this hush hush is what we are talking about! 
Dawn.

But if it's not the truth, and a person's reputation has been libelled, then court cases can prove very costly.

And if it is the truth is there any point in me taking my bitch and starting to show her??? We've got our first show on saturday.

As in all walks of life, most people are honest, and it's the few wrong'uns who give the rest a bad name.

Jeangenie.
An example for you.
A bitch (wont say what breed)  NEVER placed higher than VHC, only then twice at champ shows in 2yrs!  Showed once by the breeder arranged on the day at the show, who owns and was campaigning the litter sister (same colour), guess what, she wins the CC!!!!!  and proves the point!

Dawn.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but there are many other possible reasons for this. Maybe the breeder is a better handler? Maybe the dog behaves better for strangers?

Oh yes, and good luck Poppynurse!
:)

Thank you JG!

Hi Dawn B :)
     I did not say people who speak the truth need to be careful. Only as you can see the poster was not party to this conversation her father was. And as in any conversation, the same words can be used in two seperate contexts. The poster (no disrespect intended to you sarstaff) was not there and is not sure exactly what was said and why?
     And although they are not naming names being as the name at the top is ending in "staff" there is a good chance they are Stafford owners. Therefore, to post something like this is a bit inflamatory do you not think?
     And to be honest if I were considering using a dog at stud I'd know who has given the dog tickets and if they had previously had a bitch mated by the dog? would you not? And I'd possibly put two and two together and possibly make 5, as this posters father sounds as if he has; I copy from previous post.

>>>>>>hes looking else where although that dog is exactly what his bitch needs, after doing a bit of investigating hes noticed lots of her recent wins have been under judges who have used his dog or are best pals, the thing is theres a strong chance my dad would have give it a ticket anyway. <<<<<<<<<

   I'd know everything possible about the dog I was considering using. This is just basic information - number of litters sired and to whom not hard to come by. And the last sentence "There's a good chance my Dad would have given it a ticket anyway"
Sarstaff - How do you know that - does your Dad prejude the dogs before they even get into a ring regardless of opposion? If so I would think twice before entering under him.     

And I am not saying all judging is fair it is sometimes who you know rather than what you show I know. And it shouldn't be that way but usually is you either take it and smile or fight bakc ie not show under that judge.
Take care Karen :)

Forgot to say Good Luck Poppy nurse, where are you showing?

Karen

Thanks Karen, we're at Newark on saturday with Tara, and my knees are trembling already!

the problem is Kazz if you think the dog is good enough to be used on your bitch then most of the time you really like the dog and its a good qulity.  The dogs we had chosen to use on our bitches are both lovely dogs and I like them for type etc and would place them highly.  The thing is alot of the time people say judging is facey, because the handler has done the winning, shall we no remember that most the time the dog wins because it is still the best dog on the day?!

Also as for handling.  Once at an open show some friends had alot of their dogs in the challenge, so I took the open dog winner in, the owners are not the best handlers, but they love showing and love being with their dogs.  So anyway I take in the open dog winner, and go BOB.  We knew the judge because he is in our breed.  he turned around to my parents and the owners of the dog and said "BOB was going to open bitch untill the chalenge where your boy was handled to his best and looked amazing"  This was purly because (I hate to blow my own trumpet) but I am a reasonable handler and have been handling since I was extreamly young!  I am also younger then the owners and able to run a fast moving dog at a fast pace!

Just though handling I got the dog to take BOB.

Breed judge was not happy when I was unable to take the dog into the group....

I agrre with you handling makes a massive difference, and I also agree a poor handler like myself would even with a good dog not get placed as regurally as a good handler with a good dog. Just a point thought would you not have checked out what the dog was throwing and to whom before you made a descision?

Karen  

Nah JJ, bitch would handle for anyone, and it wasnt the owners first dog either, it was a fix, nothing more, organised to prove a point at a championship show, and so it did.
Dawn.

Before novices to the showing world are put off by this post there are many many good and fair judges out there :)

I am still relatively new to showing.My oldest boy is coming up 4 and we have been showing since he was 6 months albeit rather sparsely for the first year.
I must say that it seems it varies from breed to breed.Although we do get some 'face' judging at shows its definately not as bad in my breed as it seems to be in others.In 3 years of showing we have managed to be consistantly well placed ..even winning a couple of Rccs.Not much to some but an achievement I am very proud of.
As far as handling is concerned I couldn't agree more about the handler making or breaking the dog.As I posted a couple of days ago my 2 year old elkhound is always down the line when I show him.However with my daughter on the end of the lead he is a different dog and looks like a different hound....
I think too many times people blame their bad placings on the judge being facey when it was just a case of he prefered the other dogs! I'm not saying it doesn't happen...but I think its also easy to forget that everyone has different interpretations of the standard and they don't always match ours. As far as I'm concerned...I use it as a lesson.If the judge doesn't like my dogs then I won't waste my entry money again...not sour grapes ...just common sense.
If we all had the same preferences then there would be very few of us at shows since the same dogs would win every time.
Archer

Yes ( I think ::-))  , you are saying that the judge implied give him the ticket for the stud.. does this mean your dad is a judge ?? that is the only way it would make sense as the judge isn't going to give a ticket and them a free stud :-)) unless he is confused also. ;-)

Also for novices who may be put off, I'd like to add the following: I started showing over 25 yrs ago & I was amazed by the number of people who told me that they'd tried showing but given up because "everybody" knew that you had to be "someone" to get anywhere. Well, I thought about this and decided that "everyone" had to be "no one" when they started showing, even if they then got to know "someone" later (basically, I decided to try it out for myself!). The very 1st class I entered at a Ch. Show was Maiden - and the judge withheld 1st prize, so if that didn't put me off nothing would! I went out, bought a bitch & am proud of the fact that she became a Champion exactly a year after our first general champ. show. I'd never even seen the 3 judges who gave her the CCs, never mind spoken to them & I wasn't the world's best handler (still not :D ). The point is, the bitch was gorgeous, the dog who was withheld from wasn't (but I loved him to bits anyway). Yes there is a lot of incompetent & um ... cowardly judging, but you pays your money & you takes your choice! When you've been showing awhile, you learn which judges' opinions are worth getting & which you wouldn't cross the road to show under.

Anwen said:
"Yes there is a lot of incompetent & um ... cowardly judging, but you pays your money & you takes your choice! When you've been showing awhile, you learn which judges' opinions are worth getting & which you wouldn't cross the road to show under."

Absolutely spot on Anwen!
Dawn.

One thing thats springs to my mind is, if a judge that gives tickets uses a particular dog at stud and then that dog is exhibited under the same judge surely you would expect it to be placed rather highly and it wouldn't be surprising if they got the ticket and even BOB.  After all, if the dog is good enough to be used on the judges bitch it is highly likely they consider it to be good enough to win the ticket.  Does that make sense ?  What is out of order is the person suggesting that giving them the ticket can be the form of payment :-(

I have my first judging appointment next year and I've already been warned that I will make enemys afterwards because I won't please everyone (providing I get an entry of course ;-) )  I have said from day one that I will always be honest and place the dogs I like regardless of who is handling them but it does make me think that it may not bode well for my future in exhibiting my dogs if I upset people.  Sad isn't it :-(

We've got a breed champ show in a couple of weeks and the judge (a fellow exhibitor) was at MC last weekend.  Apparently, there were no end of people greeting him and giving him kisses - quite funny really.

We've been showing just over a year and I can see why a lot of people give up within the first year.   Because it can appear facey, but as a lot of people have said, maybe it's because the big breeders have the best dogs and some (not all) have good handling skills and know how to move their dogs to look their best.   At first, we weren't getting placed at champ shows, but we've perservered (sp), our handlings improved (slightly) and our bitch has matured and we find we're now getting placed - even through to the cc line up.

We've learnt a lot, make notes of the judges who like our type and remember not to go under them in the future if they don't.

sarah

another good thing to remember is if the dog used is a good one or bitch trace back on the internet all the shows he/she done well and go under those judges if they ever judge you never no as they could go for that type again
yes i hate it when people slag the top breaders off it gets on my nerves when someone says "oh look at that line up all the faces are in it" or "they have always got alot of dogs out in the ring" or something  well if they have the best dogs there then they will win and if they have a good place to have lots of dogs then they will have a fair few in the ring i think alot of it is jealousy
sorry for moaning lol
fiona

And surely the breeders keep the best puppies for themselves.