I have been reading the board for a while and decided it is time to come out of the closet and actually post something :-) I planned the mating of my bitch (eye-tested) for almost a year. Picked a very good proven stud dog etc. I was advised by the Stud Dog Owner to have premate tests carried out to detect the correct time of ovualtion as I was making a 300 mile journey. Her last season seemed pretty much text book, but this was was different, no tailing off of colour and quite heavy bleeding all the way through. I took her for her 1st premates on days 11,13 & 15 and was told to repeat in 2 days. Back again on day 17 (also had vaginal cytology carried out) (premate = mid-blue result) and was told mate in 3-5 days but to come and get another one just to double check. I went back on 19!!! and had a pale blue/almost clear result and was told to go immediately, I went to the stud dog the very next day a 10 hour drive in total by myself in one day!!. My bitch is a maiden bitch and was NOT happy about mating, although I am not sure if this is because she had gone over or just beacuse she was a maiden, the dog was VERY interested and we had a 55 minute tie. (only one mating took place) Anyway, long story she was scanned last Thursday by a sheep farmer who was recommended to me as he is very accurate, result: no puppies. I must admit I was quite surprised as she had shown good signs, stopped bleeding 2 days after mating, enlarged pink teats, vulva stayed swollen etc, stopped eating at 3 weeks. The only thing that made think she might not be is no weight gain whatsoever.
Anyway I have another go with this stud dog next season, the main thing is my bitch has youth and health on her side. But I do not trust the test anymore.
This is my first experience of breeding. As a novice I listened to the advice of the vets at the cost of £100!! instead of listening to my own instincts ( I thought she was ready 5+ days before)
Of course there may be another underlying issue, I won't know that until next time, but day 20 seemed awfully late to me, although I know it's not unheard if. I don't think it helped that 3 different vets did the tests, maybe all reading the results slightly differently.
I feel quite sad for my bitch now as she is obviously having a phantom to some degree :-(
I feel unsure as to what route to take next time, with a 300 mile journey (600 mile round trip) to go :-(
Sorry for the long winded post!!
Gillian

I've had mixed experiences, the first time I had no pups and the second time she fell pregnant and had a singleton but lost it. I will use it again on her because she has very quiet seasons, though with my other bitch I took her when I thought she was ready and we got four pups! Hopefully someone with wider experience will come along soon..

I havnt got any advice as donnot breed, but am sure someone with experience will be along very soon.
Just to say Welcome to the board :) Hope you get some very useful advice on here as I have on numerous occasions!!!!!
Lea :) :) :)

I mated a bitch 28 days ago. I took her to the stud dog on day 12 and she showed no interest. I Pre Mated on day 13 and was told to do it again the next day, I pre Mated again day 14. I was told to mate her within the next 24 hours as she was ovulating. We got a mating and a 22 min tie on day 15 and a mating on day 16 with a 55 min tie.She went off her food yesterday and has enlarged nipples, so fingers crossed. I will let you know if my Pre Mate experience is a positive one.
Diane

I have to say if you had a 55 min tie then you bitch was definately ready, the bitch determines the tie and it's duration.  I have mated girls post day 20 and had puppies, sometimes they just ovulate late.  When i have used the premate test it worked, ie successful litter.

The reason for no puppies could be something else, one of the primary causes for a mating failing is going too early to the stud dog not too late.

Would you say that a bitch was ready if she had to be restrained to be mated? even with a 55 minute tie? would nature not kick in once mated regardless? I have to say I am not saying these tests don't work for everybody. I have heard great success stories and some similar to mine.
From what I believe a Clear result means the bitch has already ovulated, on day 19 we had a faint blue almost clear result and she was mated the next day. Obviously there could be some other reason why it didn't work? On another note, one week post-mating she had a show of what looked like old season blood, it wasn't foul or infectious, it just looked like the tail end of a season, could this be a factor? though I was told by one person that this was a good sign.

Hello

I don't think a bitch should have to be restrained in the truest sense of the meaning.  It's sensible to gently hold/cuddle a bitch during mating to facilitate the mating and prevent any harm to either party if a bitch does jump a bit, but if a bitch has to be forcibly restrained then I'd say the mating time wasn't at it's optimum.

Many bitches are a little apprehensive about mating (I would be too if I'd been taken to a strange house and had a strange chap sniffing my bottom!) but these little jitters soon sort themselves out if the bitch has time to relax and not feel pressurised.   After a suitable period of time even the most shy and retiring bitches soon warm to the idea. Obviously some are still a bit worried (even though they are standing/flirting/accepting) and don't like the moment of penetration or the swelling of the penis but on the whole, all things considered they are happy.

If your bitch was anything more than mildly bothered (after a suitable time to relax) then I'd say she wasn't ready for mating.

Chris

Hi Sharon

Just a thought (for what it's worth!)  The only time my boys have had ties as long as 55 mins or longer is when they have mated unhappy girls.  I've noticed that the bitch is so tense during the mating that it's as if they are unable to let the boy go even if they want to.  Even had one bitch vomit during a 1.5 hr tie.  Poor girl, felt so sorry for her.

These bitches were not too fussed about being mated, not so bad that I would inflict the boys on them but not as happy as they could be.  They did stand for mating (wouldn't force a bitch) but as soon as they were tied they went mad, trying to get away from the boys and jumping all over the place.  They got very distressed and I think they were so tense they couldn't relax to let the boys go.  Had to lie these bitches down (they got exhausted) with their partners, soothe them and wait it out!

One bitch fell pregnant the other bitch met a Romeo (a Gold cocker) in the park four days after the last mating (she let him mate her without any problem!!).  Whilst the owner and I were pondering on DNA tests etc. for the pups the poor girl took ill.  She had a pyo. and was spayed so will never know if she would have been pregnant let alone which dog sired the pups! 

Chris

Hi Chris...........as you know the problems of my Rosie back in the summer, I have to say this time she was a lot happier to be mated, we didn't go by the premate tests as although after 4 my vet said not ready for 4-6 days, we had a feeling she was ready before so went to stud anyway the very next day, stud dog was happy to see her and she stood quite happily for her mating with a 50 minute tie and not a flinch or growl unlike back in the summer when she complained A LOT!! that time we went on the go ahead from the premate, we had had a slipped mating 5 days earlier but went back for two matings 2 days apart which she wasn't happy about, once we had the ready in 48 hours from the test.  The scan confirmed she had actually conceived on the slipped mating 5 days BEFORE the premate said she would be ready in 48 hours.

So I think from now on I'll stick to my instinct rather than the premates

I haven't found the length of the tie relates to the success or not of a mating. We've had successful litters from ties varying in length from a couple of minutes to one that was over an hour & a half (not just our own litters but those sired by our stud dogs). I also haven't found a relationship between the willingness or not of the bitch & the length of the tie - the exceptionally long tie I mentioned involved a bitch who was a real "tart" :-)

Jane

Dont give up yet, Thats what I say. I had one of my girls scanned Just the same as you and was told no pups she has missed, a few weeks later and 11 pups yeah 11. how they missed that god knows. I also used a pre mate test for a long journey to a stud and was rewarded with 9 .
Now this year, again a pre mate test and one week ago 1 pup arrived . A singleton, I have never had one of these before and he seems a strapping lad but the problem is a name for him, it needs to be something special, a lot of people suggest Solo, but that doesnt do it for me,,
When your messing with mother nature expect a kick up the but sometimes..

J

Maybe my wording was to strong, she wasn't physically restrained as such, but just seemed really distressed, on a par with what Sharon described.
Dogman, I really don't think there are any puppies to be honest, I'll just need to try again next time, I'm not giving up hope anyway :-)

I have used the premate test when travelling a long distance because on the first trip the bitch said NO!.  She was eventually ready around day 22 and mated then and produced pups.

The dog's sper*rm will remain viable within the bitch for a few days which is why the exact date is not always necessary.

How did bitches ever reproduce without Premate?  There they were, standing on street corners tied to the village romeo on the days that they selected, and all the time they shouldn't have been, because it was the wrong day.  I really think in most cases nature knows best, and to take notice of when your bitch tells you she is ready.  Having said this, I know there are exceptions - the bitch that will stand for 10 days and the bitch that keeps her tail clamped throughout the season - in these cases Premate is of use. 

Also, I have sent owners of visiting bitches to have Premate tests done when they ring up and say they have only just noticed that their bitch has come into season, they weren't expecting it and haven't been checking and think they have missed a few days of the season, so could they just bring her over and "try".  

I pre-mated by bitch as her last breeding resulted in a dead baby with two fantastic matings, this time round i pre-mated so i could pin point the right day, also used draminski ovulation detector and have been confirmed in whelp with 8 puppies. I've been told that anything can stop the bitch from catching, down to travelling etc and stress.

Hope your girlie is okay

Good Luck with your babies AkitaLover :-)
i think sometimes with these tests they are only as good as the people carrying them out and reading the results, 2 different vets may interpret the same result completely different.
In my case 2 of the tests were carried out by a vet I've known for years the other 3 were carried out by 3 different younger vets (one a locum) who I have never met before at my practise. I am not saying that younger vets can't read the results, but there must be some degree of training and I don't know if any of them have had that training.
Apparently the older vet at the practise rates the test highly as he uses it on his retrievers, just wish he'd done them for me now :-)
Obviously all my bleating on could be unfounded and the result of no puppies could be a completely different reason that I may never know the answer to.
As you say stress could be a factor, a 600 mile round trip in one day can't be a good thing can it :-(

Hi buttonschoc.............another suggestion from my vet why my girl lost her litter in the summer was, like you said, stress.  We had travelled to Plymouth and back, then to Taunton and back 5 times before we finally got a good mating.

But who knows, no blood test could tell us why she had lost her litter, so we have to try and understand that she didn't have pups for a good reason, maybe something was wrong with the pups ie. not properly formed etc.  But like you, I was just happy that my girl was ok, if you want to try again she is still young enough.

Another possiblity is that maybe she did get pregnant and something wasn't right and she reabsorbed............you said the signs were positive, have things changed at all over the past couple of days? Her behaviour, eating anything at all??

Good luck for next time!
Sharon

I know what you mean :-) We travelled 800 miles with ours... I was phooped!