My 8 month old boxer girl Noe is doing quite well with her training and I am very pleased with her when taking her out on walks. What I would like though is to switch her motivation from food as she will do a fantastic heel for any food treat to be more attentive and motivated with another treat like her toy or just for praise from me. At the moment she can get distracted if she knows there is no food about and I dont want to carry a treat around with me all the time rather I'd like to give her a treat when she has done something really good. The trainer at my local dog class said at this stage it should be "whatever it takes" - am I being too ambisious with her at her age. I want her to do what I say because she wants to please me not just for a food treat.
How should I make the switch to toys and do you let them have a quick chew before asking the next command.
Appreciate your help, Aimi.

"I want her to do what I say because she wants to please me not just for a food treat"

So presumably you expect people to go to work just because they want to please their employers not for any money............?

No, I definatly dont go to work to please my empoyees - definatly only do it for the money so I can see your point Tohme. So I am asking too much from her? Just dont want to have food treats in my hands ALL the time for a good response - any tips? 

You should only be using treats in your hand for the first 2/3 times of luring the behaviour that you want.

For example to teach your dog to sit you put food between your thumb and forefinger and lure into sit, click and treat, repeat twice more.  On the 4th attempt you do not use food, merely the same finger shape, click and treat.  This is the beginning of a visual signal.  To add a verbal cue, put in a word just before the visual cue and gradually fade the visual.

Food in the hand is just bribery eg look, see food in my hand if you do X you will get it.  Food use CORRECTLY as a reinforcement is in your pouch, pocket or container eg see, food is in here, give me some behaviour in order for me to produce the food! :D

Time after time we see and hear that owners can only get behaviour with food in the hand, they have not moved on so the dog is never advancing it will only ever do stuff when following food.  Also with food following, the dog does not have to engage brain!

Get the behaviour, mark it then reinforce it.

I have never stopped using food, except of course during the actual competition.

If you want to use toys you can train the want in the dog by using food, i trained one of my dogs to tug for food, she is now a champion tugger :D
HTH

i dont think she is clicker training!!!
& its only bribery in YOUR opinion
i dont think it is in my opinion

"So presumably you expect people to go to work just because they want to please their employers not for any money............?"

I've always found that analogy a bit unfortunate. Whilst some dogs need food and toys to motivate them, some breeds have been developed for decades to be highly motivated and responsive to their owners wishes. Seems a shame to let all that natural willingness and ability go to waste.

The consequence appears (particularly from reading these boards) to be dogs that are great at doing 'tricks' in the training class, but are under little or no genuine control when outside distractions prove a greater reward.

Havoc,

I agree on the natural willingness thing, this is why I wanted to train not using too many food treats. I find Boxers very willing to please but have short attention spans and the food I have been using seems to keep Noe focused - whilst specifically in training sessions anyway, something thay toy rewards can't at the moment. Outside on walks I am pleased to say her recalls are very good and I will often find her heeling off the lead when not told to (especially on harder ground) and I have tell her to "go play" so I am lucky I suppose for her wanting to train out on walks (where I dont normally).

"So presumably you expect people to go to work just because they want to please their employers not for any money............?"

I now think foods treats should be a "thank you" for being a good girl (we all like a thank you from our employers as well as our wages !), after all the dog's "wages" are their upkeep and din dins (although they dont know that !!)

I think you are right Havoc, (to a certain extent) hence my post about "he always does it with a treat in my hand"  :D

Whilst it is true that there are many lines of working dogs who find the whole process of doing what they were bred for self rewarding enough, there are others who do not; hence they do have to be given a reason to do things.  Even more so if you wish to work a "non traditional" breed in another discipline.

fortunately I have found that my dogs are "obedient" as opposed to "doing obedience" and in my discipline can carry out various "tricks" at up to 300 yards away, (as do some gundogs) :D

At the end of the day any behaviour can be viewed as a "trick"! Generally a trick of training! :D

Unfortunately most dogs are vastly undertrained (look at how many people cannot get a reliable recall) and owners do not actively "proof" their dogs to be immune to distractions or a so undermotivated by their owners who "expect too much of their dogs who should do it all for love" that they find sniffing a blade of grass vastly more exciting and interesting than their owner! :D

i suppose it also depends on how far you want to go
id not expect flynn to go to a show (or 2) week in & week out, & produce fantastically motivated work each time,just for the love of me, so i am carefull always to really motivate in training.
however on a walk or whatever i have no need to carry treats or toys out on a walk,his general obedience IS NOW totally separate from his competition work (although at the start it was not,when he was learning!!!)

Tohme,

What I mean by a "trick" is a taught behaviour that serves no purpose toward the objective of the handler. For example, the pet dog owner with a reliable recall in a training class, but no control whatsoever out in a field. Or the dog with beautiful indoor heelwork that pulls its owners arm off to get to another dog.

Competition style obedience is most easily and effectively taught using high motivation techniques of food or toys, but all the evidence I have seen points to either poor or slower than necessary progress for the perenial issues of pulling on the lead and clearing off whilst on a walk. I sincerely feel that fashionable, reward only techniques make an easy job much harder than it needs to be, and do little to improve the wellbeing of the dog, given the imposed restrictions placed upon them because of non-obedience.

From observation and reading these boards it would seem that many owners have no means of communicating that some behaviour is unacceptable, and that merely witholding "wages" is insufficient.

I would agree that "do it all for love" is as out of place as "do it out of fear". However, experience has taught me that the majority of dogs can be straightforwardly trained out of a genuine respect and willingness to please.

I have no real issue with the use of food or toys as rewards, my issue is about using them as the sole motivator for compliance.

"but all the evidence I have seen points to either poor or slower than necessary progress for the perenial issues of pulling on the lead and clearing off whilst on a walk"

Perhaps you have seen people that a) have not bothered to teach it at all, b) people who cannot train dogs not to pull or to recall reliably.

I have seen some of the top dogs in the UK in various disciplines solely trained by motivational means ie positive reinforcement and negative punishment and they have total recall and no pulling on the lead.  As I always say, don't blame the method, blame the delivery! :D

"I sincerely feel that fashionable, reward only techniques make an easy job much harder than it needs to be, and do little to improve the wellbeing of the dog, given the imposed restrictions placed upon them because of non-obedience."

No quite sure I understand this sentence; let me break it down:

"I sincerely feel that fashionable, reward only techniques make an easy job much harder than it needs to be"

I have found the absolute reverse, owners have gone away from only one workshop amazed at how easy it is to get a dog to comply with no aversive techniques.

"and do little to improve the wellbeing of the dog"

This part of your statement I would wholeheartedly refute.  The exact OPPOSITE happens, the well being of the dogs is vastly IMPROVED as they are not getting confusing messages, they are not given any positive punishment eg lead jerks, slaps, collar lifts, citronella puffs, electric shocks, shouted at etc therefore their welfare is vastly improved because no element of fear is involved!

"given the imposed restrictions placed upon them because of non-obedience."

Not sure what you mean here.

In motivational training the only restriction is that the dog is NOT rewarded for inappropriate behaviour or access to a desired resource is removed.  Eg behaviour that is desired is strengthened because it gets reinforced by food,  play or whatever.  Undesirable behaviour is weakened because there is no reinforcement or what the dog desires eg food, toys, interaction with other dog, handler is removed.

Are there no "imposed restrictions" placed upon dogs because of non obedience in "traditional" methods of teaching?

Unfortunately motivational training, as with anything, can be poorly understood, poorly executed and, ideas lifted or used in isolation and/or out of context.

Perhaps it is all in the intepretation........ :D

Six people can look at the same dog and come up with different theories and answers, because they are all looking at it from a slightly differing perspective.............

What else would you use as a motivator if not toys, food, body contact, freedom to chase bunnies, etc?

Interesting debate............... :)

i feel some people (not getting at anybody here/pointing finger or anything) read too many books on training,& see it as a science almost & have little natural empathy with their dogs, i also feel people can become very blinkered by their own methods & become unable to "think outside the box",
although i do genarally keep my methods the same,im always looking & learning & storeing ideas & tips for the future.

some clickered trained/target trained dogs ive seen have been marvalous & others have been misrable& confused

NOT every method suits each dog OR each handler
i can see the benifits of clicker training but choose not to do it with my dog as i think he suits other methods better (& so do i)-thats not to say if he or any future dog had a problem that i felt would be helped by using the clicker that i wouldnt take advantage of it! :)

I agree it is an interesting debate;my methods are very similar to Tohme's generally speaking.

A beagle has recently gained its CDex in working trials; now that is not an easy feat and was done with positive reinforcement. I do understand that some dogs will not need to work for food rewards or be trained that way (eg i am thinking of gundogs and dogs working sheep). I don't care what people do to be honest as long as the dog is happy and their is a partnership between dog and owner.

I use the clicker myself and can't praise it enough, although when i first used it i thought "so what?" :D Now i wouldn't be without it.

Lindsay
X

ive seen beagles work in obedience,with my mouth hanging open in awe, they were BRILLIANT,both trained using pure motivational methods,
BUT im fed up (not on here -but in books/magazines etc) with "the clicker" been held up as the wonder method! because its not. & because i dont wish to use it at present these magazines etc suggest that i must be in the "dark ages" & not be a good trainer,what a load of tosh! -i can remeber similar happening in horses some years back,with the arrival of monty roberts & natural horsemanship

I fear that this debate warrants more time than I have got available.

I think the main point at which we are at odds is that you believe any departure from 'positive only' to inevitably end up with a catalogue of abuse against the dog. A correction need not be based on either pain or fear.

As i've said, I have no objection to giving a reward, and the process of 'marking' correct behaviour is useful. However, I feel that progress is greatly enhanced by 'marking' incorrect behavior (which does not have to mean beating or giving an electric shock). I liken it to the game of warmer / colder - its much easier if you get to use the words warmer AND colder.

Skilled handlers get excellent results using all manner of different methods. The art is finding one which works for both the dog and the handler (as Michelle has mentioned). My points are largely based around the many posts on here from owners struggling to teach their dog to do simple things like walk sensibly on the lead, which should pretty much be a 'one lesson' exercise.

Most of the dogs I have handled (& all the ones I have owned, including terriers) have taken much pleasure from me being pleased with them. They avoid the things I dont want, because i have been clear in showing them the difference. They remain happy and unafraid, because the correction is there to mark the point of incorrect action rather than punish (I would agree that is the point were a handler could incorrectly become heavy handed). I also condition them to believe that I am able to prevent them from doing certain things like chasing game or moving from a 'stay'.

With regard to reward / motivation I prefer to use verbal and/or physical praise but wouldnt discount anything. (Although some gundog training is self-rewarding) However, I wouldnt use food or toys were praise is sufficient.

As you have said, its an interesting debate. I'm not trying to convert you as you have found a method that you are happy with. I merely like to add some balance against the methods most often advocated on this forum. Your 'wages' analogy hits a nerve with me every time. ;-)  (my dogs are much more reliable than many employees I have come across :-) )

One of the best motivational trainers I know does not even possess a clicker! :D 

Again, the principles of operant conditioning do not actually REQUIRE the use of a clicker, just the same skills in any training, observation, timing and correct "marking".

There are indeed many methods of teaching things and those of us that have had several dogs or train others will not use the same method for every dog as they, like us are all individuals and hence food works for one, toys another, praise for another, one of my dogs was only motivated by free running!  So I do what works! :D  T

here is also a hierarchy of rewards which I use depending on the dog and situation; in some cases praise is enough, in some a leg of lamb is what is needed! :D

We DO mark incorrect behaviour in operant conditioning; we mark it my negative punishment, by the removal of something the dog wants!

I don't think I ever mentioned anything about a "catalogue of abuse" in  my posts, again it all comes down to interpretation and inference doesn't it!

Verbal and physical praise may be enough with high drive dogs, most people however just have regular pet dogs that have not been specifically bred for working and do not possess the drive that carries a lot of dogs (and handlers) through potential difficulties. :)

Also those of us who do not work "traditional" breeds have learned to think "outside the box" extremely well; unlike a lot of trainers who appear only to be able to train a particular breed and cannot take breed idiosyncrasies into account.  The best trainers can realise the potential of ANY breed.

i think alot of people with badley behaved dogs is not because of the type of training,but the lack of it & the consistancy of it & not understanding the special needs of their own dog/breed & also LACK of EXPERINCE & confidence to deal with situations & to be able to spot problems before they get bigger!

we have a very "hands off" pet club near to be,ive never seen so many dogs come from there that "resent!" being touched ,because in the training its all done by lure/clicker /target & the dogs dont think their owners have anyright too touch them,-this is imo motivational training NOT working & taken to a dangerous extreme!

It is true that you cannot expect consistency from your dogs if you are inconsistent in your training/commands/signals/expectations.

Hands off training should NOT IMNSVHO equate to never giving your dogs body rubs etc; I do all the time, after all it is one more weapon in your arsenal, verbal praise, body rubs, food, toys etc etc etc

Again, one cannot legislate for individual intepretations of things........................

exactly! thats how these people understand it though!!!! -such a shame,as they do puppy courses it is recipe for diaster

"i think alot of people with badley behaved dogs is not because of the type of training,but the lack of it & the consistancy of it & not understanding the special needs of their own dog/breed & also LACK of EXPERINCE & confidence to deal with situations & to be able to spot problems before they get bigger!"

Good job we have champdogs for advice and enlightenment. I have learned so much by reading posts in the last year and applying some ideas to training my 2 dogs.

Thanks everyone !

Wow, interesting debate.

Do I take it from the replies, you all train for competitions or is it just for general control out and about.
Listening to you all has really spurred me on to do more interesting training with Noe. Any of you know how I could find a more competion type club rather than a pet obedience club.
i'm also interested to know how much training you put in per day, whether you manage to fit it in round work. I have a horse so we are at the farm most nights - I suppose I could do some training there whilst waiting for buckets to fill etc. Could do with a club that could give me more fun idea's.

Aimi x

  

I train for competition and for general use :D

How much training do I put in a day? hmmmmmmmm  I work full time but train every day, I do most of my training in a chair in front of the tv :D

My current dog is 4 I suspect that the number of hours training she has received runs into at least 4 figures!

hi aimi
i do competitive obedience & tohme does working trials

look on

  www.ObedienceUK.com/
if you then look at clubs you can find one in your area
also if you look on out & about & look at the two sets of pics from liskeard,you can see me & flynn

i go to club once a week & try to train three other times also,but also do bits around the house & on walks

i used to have a horse....sold her to concentrate on the dogs!!!!!omg
theres LOADS of horsey people in obedience

what area are you in?

Michelled,

I live in Bury, Lancashire

just off the top of my head, lune valley DTC, tower DTC, larkholme dtc all run shows in lancs,so must be around there somewhere!

Don't know if this would be of any help
WEST LANCS BOXER TRAINING CLUB
Mr J Finn,
2 Athol Street,
Patricroft, Eccles,
Manchester, M30 8PQ.
Tel: 0161 789 7471

I used to work Boxers before I went even battier and got Beardies :-)

Hey thanks,

I will give them a call.

How could you go from boxers to another breed !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was given one as a present by a friend and fell hook, line and sinker. I'd been attending Beardie activities with the Boxers and showing and working her Beardies. When she had a litter she offered me Una, still hanker after a Boxer from time to time though
                                                                                     Anne

Sorry, I inferred from your post that the use of correction results in a dog that responds out of fear - thats the way it came across to me (hence my catalogue of abuse phrase). I merely wanted to make clear that from my perspective correction and abuse are not in any way the same thing.

I am really looking at this from the pet dog owners perspective. The fact that I choose to own 'proper dogs' ;-) hasnt stopped me spending a lot of time helping and watching pet dog owners. Sheer weight of numbers where I live causes the majority to be gundog breeds, GSDs, collies or other working breeds - but actual working breeding is rather thin on the ground.

"We DO mark incorrect behaviour in operant conditioning; we mark it my negative punishment, by the removal of something the dog wants!" - that really relies on having something available that the dog regards as more rewarding than the thing they are not supposed to be doing, and the dog connecting the incorrect action with the witholding of the reward. This is the bit that seems to fall down when 'average pet owners' use reward only and is my main quibble with this method of training. I wouldnt suggest that it doesnt work, just that I feel there are quicker methods, which consequently can allow the dog to be given more freedom more quickly.

I'm not suggesting that the techniques I use are foolproof for the average pet owner, many people never get to grips with whatever method they use. I'm fully aware that many people who try and train the way i do mistime or use the wrong level of correction. I'm just trying to introduce a different perspective.

"Also those of us who do not work "traditional" breeds have learned to think "outside the box" extremely well; unlike a lot of trainers who appear only to be able to train a particular breed and cannot take breed idiosyncrasies into account.  The best trainers can realise the potential of ANY breed." - I cant disagree with that, although I feel you are selling your weimeraners short, not a common working trial competitor, but still a 'proper' working breed. :-)

I'm not expecting you to let me have the last word, but I wont be able to get back to this for some time. ;-)

hi! i agree with your trainer!
to get good hw,you need really strong basics,attention & attitude,if you cut out the treats too early you could just end up with a bored dog!
you could (which is what i do) use a toy also, so it goes like this, HW-treat then say "now play" & haVE A GOOD GAME.
this is good also as it stops the dog switching off after its got its food reward.
you can then build on this,showing the dog the toy during hw, & saying "whats this" carry on a few more paces,asking for 100% attention then break off & "plau"
i find it useful to give all things a name, "get it" for getting a titbit "ragger" or "play" for playing "heelies/closeys" for HW

if you dont like carrying the treat in your hand,show her it before you start,say "whats this" & let her see you put it into your pocket for later

you may have a dog that can be happily motivated just by you,but most dogs do need abit more. theres nothing wrong with this,

Thanks michelled. Sorry to be slow but is hw heel work?

yes!!!!

you could also leave the titbit somewhere,ie on a table or on the floor,or on a up turnred bucket or something, show the dog the titbit,put it on the bucket,go straight into hw, do about5 fantastic paces then run straight to the bucket (no halts),saying "lets get um"
soon youll be able to do more & more

id imagine boxers are going to be more food orientated than  playing,so if you do want to use play youll need to work hard before you start using it so shes very "into" her toy, this should be a special training toy,that she only has during training!

I can see your suggestions working coz she is sooo entusiastic. I suppose thats really good to have an enthusiastic dog to start with. Any hints for sit stays as she is anticipating her treats and sometimes breaks her stay (I dont treat for broken waits).
We have training tonight - I will see what we can do. Sometimes it is hard at class because there are so many of us. Leaving the treats on the floor can be a home thing.

id always treat a stay whilst the dog is in position,so dont break off & treat, if shes sitting gently say "good sit"
treat then re command & leave, so shes getting the treat for the "sitting" not for the "after bit"

Your dog needs to learn self control, you can teach stays the following way, with no other visual or verbal signals.

Get small pot of food with lid, bend over and put in front of dog, every time its bum gets off the floor stand up again until you can put the pot on the ground, take a piece from it bring it up to chest level and feed dog whilst in the sit position.  The dog will learn by cause and effect, if it stays sat it will get fed, if it makes a break for it, the food will disappear.  Hence the size is important so that you can cover with your foot if necessary so the dog can NEVER self reward.

Works like a charm :D

there is NO-WAY that you could be confusing her with stays /waits commands are you?
just a thought from re reading your post?

"there is NO-WAY that you could be confusing her with stays /waits commands are you?
just a thought from re reading your post? "

Thought someone might mention that after I re-read my post. No, I am very careful about using the same word. I always use wait.

Thanks anyway.

sorry,do you use wait for everything?

aimibobs, IME there is no need to distinguish between "wait" and "stay", these commands are IMVHO :D completely superfluous.  The dog should remain in the sit/down/stand until and unless it is cued to do something else.  If the dog has been correctly and thoroughly trained it will maintain its position until you say otherwise.

regards

not if youve got a keen forward thinking dog!

i think you should use two different commands,for the stay & wait as they are DIFFERENT exercises!
you are training for different things & often the dog will be in different positions. it helps the dog if it has SOME idea of what it is expected to do!

Gosh I am confused.  What is different about them?

If the dog is in the stand/sit/down in positions on the move, distance control or a "stay" surely the "position" is the same?  The dog must maintain the position until the dog is rejoined, you give it a different command or you recall?

Puzzled!

In all the training books I have, the "Stay" means "Keep still where you are till I come back to you" and the "Wait" means "Keep still until I call you to me".
:)

This is such a confusing question, that I don't think that it matters :D I use stay and wait as you describe, JG - but at our training class, the trainer doesn't use any of these - just 'sit', 'stand' or 'down' as she needs. It seems best to use what you feel happiest with - as long as you are consistent :)

Daisy

true daisy,you can say whatever you want!!!,but aimi asked about her dog breaking stays & i think it MAY be because of the command,
youve got to look at all angles,not all training suits every dog,some dogs may cope with a single command-but i will always ask my self first if my dog makes a mistake, "have i been clear?could my dog have misunderstood me?"

Sounds more if Aimi has maybe advanced too quickly and perhaps left the dog too far, too soon and not got a 100% stay before moving onto the next stage. She says that she always uses the same command, so maybe that's not the problem :)

Daisy

In reply to Daisy's,

"Sounds more if Aimi has maybe advanced too quickly and perhaps left the dog too far, too soon and not got a 100% stay before moving onto the next stage. She says that she always uses the same command, so maybe that's not the problem

Noe always sat and waited like a rock and I could trust her ahead of all the others that she would not break her wait and it is when I have walked away, then turned and then she is antisipating the "come" comand I think for the food treat - this is what was originally bothering me with carrying treats (she knows they are in my pocket).

You probably need to go back a few stages, maybe shorten the distance and not always call her to you, just return to her so that she doesn't anticipate the recall :) I'm not sure that she is doing it just to get her treat :)

Daisy