I don't often message on here but would like some info if anyone has advice. My fathers partner has two cross labs brother and sister from barbados which were guard dogs over there, dads partner moved back to england due to divorce and brought dogs and daughter over to england, consequentley they moved next door to me and my family when i lived at home, and my dad and chris, the dogs owner started dating so my sister and i went round to  chris' house but whenever guests went round she would put the dogs in the other room because she was scared of how the dogs would react. This worried me but whenever i went round dogs were fine when she felt like letting them out, however my sister said the male dog went for her. Dad took over and tried to train them which is something they had never known and this seemed to work to a certain extent. Then dad and chris moved in together and sis had to learn to over come her fear of the dogs, by this time me and hubbie had our own place. The dogs had never been a threat to us on the occasions we had been round and chris had let them out in the house when people were there. This is why i feel the problems arose the dogs were kept away from people. Anyway this is a background to whizzer and caramel's life. Sorry to prolong this but my dad and his partner took the dogs for a walk the other night as usual and a jogger was running past and whizzer the male  jumped up and bit her, i now this is being dealt with professionally i just wondered if anyone had any ideas why this may have happened, also whizzer was put in kennels while my dad and partner went on holiday after they came back he was scared of the washing line pole and the pole they use to shut the windows in the conservertory i just wondered if he had been hit with a pole or something like that, sorry it is so long but i thought to give all the background would help

Many dogs will react in the same way if they haven't been trained/socialised to the fact that when humans and other animals run - they shouldn't chase/bite.  Anything new or strange that the dog hasn't previously experienced, or maybe just forgotten about, will appear scarey - it's natures way of keeping the dog safe by programming it to run away.  IF it feels it can't run away, then it may learn to bite in order to drive away the threat.

Has the dog seen a vet?  It may even be that there is something amiss with the dogs eyesight or hearing which means the jogger took him by surprise and the bite was more a defense move than a predator move.  What sort of programme is your professional using to de sensitise the dog?

If neither the dog nor the handler had heard the jogger running up behind them the dog may nip as it would be guarding the owner. I walk my dogs over private fields which I have permission to be in. Last week a jogger came running across these fields on one of the footpaths that cross the land. I certainly hadn't heard him coming up behind me quickly and my dogs didn't realise until he was very close. It really unsettled them and my puppy started to jump around him, to which I got a lot of verbal about my dogs not being under control, regardless of the fact that the two adult dogs were sat by me and he even threatened me with the Dangerous Dogs Act!!!! I apologised and tried to explain the little one was just a puppy and not yet fully trained. He was not prepared to listen. Had my dogs been brought up to guard their instinct would have been to protect me from a potential threat. Anyone running up behind you who is strange to the dog could be a potential threat.
Perhaps joggers should wear a bell or something to warn us! :-)

Sorry Polly but it matters not WHAT the reason for the nip is, any bite is from a dog in this context is completely unacceptable; if you are minding your own business jogging, cycling or whatever there is absolutely no excuse for being bitten.  If owners do not have reliable dogs that have been trained to ignore these distractions then they should have them on the lead. 

Just like anything else NO dog should make the decision to bite on its own.  Those people who compete in manwork disciplines have dogs that are completely reliable in social situations, their dogs are taught to "stop" people on command, not when they feel like it!

Joggers are not responsible for other people's dogs, their owners are!

Any sensible jogger (especially a male one) will know that, nowadays, many women will be thoroughly scared when a stranger runs up behind them, and to be honest if the jogger gets away without the woman defending herself in whatever means available, then he can think himself fortunate! When I was attacked many years ago I was delighted that my dog saved me from further harm when she bit the horrible man.

Being attacked is completely different from a harmless jogger running past you.

I value my dogs far too much to ever put them at risk of the DDA!

I certainly am not scared when joggers run past; good heavens one would be in a permanent state of fear where I live

Sorry, but having been attacked once, any man running towards me is considered a threat. Waiting to discover his intentions is no longer an option. Attempted rape when you're 15 years old is never forgotten ...

Tohme - sorry but I find your comments about joggers rubbish :) We have a lot of joggers here and some of them are very sensible and considerate but others are just downright dangerous :( We have several little bridges with blind-spots and often, some of them, run fast across and if you are coming the other way, they run straight into you. They also run round blind bends of hedges, past parked vans etc etc without any thought to people coming the other way. Also, they run directly at groups of people with dogs and do not consider that THEY might frighten the dogs. Whilst I am more than aware that I have a duty to keep my dogs under control, they do not seem to be aware that they have a duty to the public in general (including dogs) :(

Daisy

Tohme
I was merely trying to point out why this might have happened not condoning it! I was not best pleased to have my puppy break and jump around the jogger. Another point I was trying to make was that he had approached from behind and running on grass was totally silent, luckily for me my dogs are very people friendly or I imagine I could be in the same situation as this owner is.

It is very upsetting, even if your dog did no harm. To add to that the joggers rather nasty attitude, and he was nasty with it, it made the whole thing more upsetting. As I said it was not my two adult dogs who were bouncing along side the jogger but my very friendly puppy, who is still in training. Both adults sat by my side off lead and under total control. As my dogs are gundogs they do have to do a certain amount of their training in open fields and woodlands. Could anyone say totally honestly, that thier dog as a puppy has never ever made a mistake and done something wrong? If so then all I can say is that this dog must be a paragon of virtue. Mine are normal happy obedient dogs, who in the normal run of things are well behaved and under control. It was unfortunate that at that point they were by the footpath, and I had not heard the jogger coming up behind me.

I have a dog who is very protective of me and the rest of the family. In the past he used to lunge at anyone walking past us, but with training and careful handling he has gradually become less sensative to passers by. Joggers still cause a problem and so do cyclists as they tend to come up quickly and silently. We have him on a short lead at all times and are always aware of what or whom is coming up behind or infront of us
And yes, I agree a bell would be good, and maybe cyclists who use cycle paths next to pedestrians could use their bells if they have one!

hi digger that could make sense about eye sight the dogs are quite old, don't know what kind of help my dad is getting as this incident just happened yesterday

i wondered if maybe the dog was ill he also got into a fight with another dog last week, he was on a lead at the time they always walk both of them on the lead as my dads partner says they would not come back if they were let off. It's just really odd the jogger was a lady and the dogs were being walked by my dad and his partner as ususal. My dad is usually very firm with both dogs as he has had to be other wise they would have taken control, so they are being trained now but i feel maybe it's too little too late! Will just have to wait and see what proffessionals say. I agree no dog should bite, but in the defence of the dogs i feel it's not there fault they haven't had years of proper training.

It takes A LOT of socialization and exposure to things to produce an unflappable dog plus good temperament to begin with. My Dobe (everyone is always afraid of "the vicious" Doberman, is so use to seeing all kinds of strangers, joggers, people on hiking trails. He doesn't pay any attention to them. I've had joggers run inches past us and Lyric just watches calmly. Nothing seems to ruffle him up. On a hiking trail once, (it's kind of rare to run into people there) someone came suddenly around a blind corner. Lyric's initial reaction was a little growl, but he immediately recovered himself when he saw it was just a person and was just fine. We stopped and chatted and Lyric went over to sniff and get aquainted. That first, momentary growl was more of a startle reflex.

If people don't get their puppies out and about every day, exposing them to the world, every kind of situation they can think of (before 16 weeks old and thereafter) they're asking for trouble. People have to show their dogs what is normal, every day, non threatening stuff. Then if something weird happens, an attack or whatever, the dog will recognize this and a protection bred dog will do something about it, if they're of correct temperament. I've experienced this first hand with my Doberman...normal vs. not normal.

Hi guys,

This is an interesting one!

I think that it all may come down to the fact that it sounds like the dogs were used as 'free ranging' guard dogs.  Their job was to protect their people and territory, but independantly of a handler.  If an intruder came onto their property, they decided what action to take.  To take them away from that situation and expect them to act like normal pet dogs is, in my opinion, an accident waiting to happen.  These dogs need specialised re-training to learn to take their direction from a human leader.
This is one of the reasons why security dogs in the UK are now only used with a handler, and when they are rehomed, they usually go to very experienced people who know what a responsibility they are undertaking.  I agree with Tohme (as ever) with her explanation of dogs that do manwork, its a question of control, control , control!!
Your Dad has obviously tried his best and is now seeking professional help for the dogs, which can only be commended, but I have to say it won't be easy and there are certainly no guarantees that it will succeed. 

As far as the whole jogger thing is concerned, although I empathise with the dogs and their situation, I also feel sorry for the poor lady who was going about her business when she was bitten.  There is no excuse for a dog to bite a human! The only time this is acceptable is as a last resort by someone who is trained to take the responsibility such as police etc, or when doing manwork exercises.

Good luck with the dogs, let us know how it turns out.

Ali :)