What is the best way to teach my 13 week old standard poodle puppy recall? He will recall in the garden and on the lead, however off the lead he will recall some of the time but if he has found something more interesting he will not come back. He goes to puppy classes and the trainer said i just have to be more interesting so we take his favourite treats and a tennis ball but he would still prefer to do his own thing sometimes. I realise that at 13 weeks he will not be perfect and am prepared to really work at it. I was a bit nervous about posting as i was worried people would think i was being stupid.

You are not being stupid at all; quite the contrary, asking advice and help is far from it and there is no such thing as stupid question; only the one that you don't ask!

It is NEVER too early to start training a recall because at some point, it will fall apart, generally when they become around 8/9 months old or sometimes earlier when the dog just becomes one large hormone and NEW training is hopeless, all you can do is consolidate.

Recall training must be consistent and relentless, after all one day it could save your dog's life.

I start at 7 weeks old with food, find a titbit that your dog will kill for, it might be liver, cheese, ocean bites etc and use them ONLY for recall purposes.  Make sure he is hungry, if he is not interested in a toy yet that is because you have not conditioned him to be so food may be the way to start.

You can start by putting down titbits on the floor backing off, recalling him in the house in the same room, from one room to another, from the garden to a room and vice versa.  If you have a partner play the recall game between the two of you or more if you can get them.

Crouch down, open your arms make encouraging noises; practise grabbing hold of his collar and immediately releasing him so that he does not sidestep your hands and does not associate a recall with the END OF FUN.

If he starts to sniff the floor, etc just put on lead, be off hand, game over.  He will soon realise that freedom is contingent on a recall.  Only use the word "come" when it is fun; if you want to do something like cut his nails, etc go and get him; most people poison the cue "come" by using it outside the recall context............. and hence spoil joyful recalls.

You can speed up the response by throwing a toy or food between your legs; do not ask for a sit etc yet you are looking PURELY for a Michael Schumacher response.

HTH

hi, Kathryn I know how you feel about this and don't want to be the voice of doom but it will get worse unless you find a way to address it. I'd really encourage you to do that. I have a 9 month old standard poodle who is proving to be dreadful at recall now. We did some one-to-one training when he was much younger and he was alright at recall but it's now all fallen apart. We had to halt his training due to a health issue and because we moved house so he wasn't by any means perfect at obedience. But as he's getting older it's getting worse. He's great indoors but outside is a different story. V headstrong and wants to do his own thing. I'm sorry if I'm increasing your anxiety about this, but thought it important to share our experience with you so that maybe you can find some creative way of dealing with it.

tohme, I was bit depressed by your response when you said at 9 months or so you don't have a hope of sorting it out. I am starting a new class with him on Sunday and I was really hoping we could get the problem nailed but you seem to think that at his age we won't get anywhere with him. Is that right? I'd hate to think we couldn't make some advances with him. He comes back some of the time but when there is another dog on the scene we don't get anywhere with him. He just doesn't listen to us. Is there nothing we can do to improve this? I'd hate him to have to live out his life on the end of a lead. He's very playful and very freindly and I don't want to curb his natural enthusiasm completely.

I never consider a dog to be too old to train I rescued a X breed & my vet thought she was around 7-9 years old & although she would never have been able to compete at show level I did obedience & agility demonstrations with her

Recall should always be viewed by your dog as a pleasant experience & I show people how to do "happy" recalls

Starting on lead & with the dog sitting in the "present"position(ie facing the handler) take  one pace back & making a big arms wide gesture call the dog taking a couple of paces backwards as long as the dog comes(no sit etc required)make a big f uss & treat(if you give treats)

Gradually increase the distant between you & the dog until you can get about 6 to 9 feet between you. then in an enclosed space(ie at home or training class)quietly remove the lead & go back to a couple of paces between you & the dog & call the dog & when the dog has come to you quietly clip the lead back on then fuss & treat. Again gradually increase the distance until you have about 12 foot between you & the dog comes immediately when called & always put the lead back on & then treat

By doing it this way your dog will associate recall & leads with treats & fuss,

there will always be the teenage deafness stage with all dogs, but if your dog associate the reacll & lead with a fuss & treat, you should have a dog that will come when called & accept having the lead put back on

I never tell people to do lots of training a little & often is IMHO the best way to positively reinforce the behaviour you want. It your gets it right allow a little play with a toy before more training

I certainly would never do work for no reward so why should my dog

" He comes back some of the time but when there is another dog on the scene we don't get anywhere with him. He just doesn't listen to us. Is there nothing we can do to improve this?"

Don't ever, ever give him an opportunity to ignore you when you call him to come. Everytime he gets away with not listening to you, his education on how to ignore you goes up a notch. You need to keep him on a long line so you can enforce what you tell him. With my dog, if we're in a situation where I am not positive he'll come or I can't make him come, (no leash) I won't use the word come at all. I may run the other direction or make squeeky noises or try to entice him to come with me, but I won't use the word, come. It loses it's meaning if he doesn't have to obey. If I see that he's coming, if he's 2 or 3 steps away from me and it's obvious he's coming for a treat or my open arms.....if I'm absolutely positive he's going to come AND if I can reach my arms out and get him if I need to, THEN I'll say, "come." Then lots of praise. Be consistant. Never let him get away with ignoring you and he'll get it. Like it was said, don't call him to you for putting the leash on him or any other non-fun thing. Later you can snap the leash on for a second or two and then release him again to show him that it's not all over and he can still have fun.

After he gets good at recall in less distracting situations, you can practice around other dogs. Keep the long line on him and let him check out a dog. Then call him and make him come. Give him a jack pot of praise and treats. Then let him go see the other dog again. Keep him on a long line though. His going back and forth will show him that just because he comes to you, doesn't mean that his fun is all over.

Good luck.

Carrie

I don't think tohme means that there is no way forward at 9 months, just when the hormones kick in everything goes out of the window and concentration on training from your dog is near impossible.  However, if you have put in the work before they reach this age then as he comes out of this period he will remember it all.

If you have not put the training in then it becomes more difficult and you will really have to put some time aside to train him on a one to one.

If he is food motivated, try taking really tasty treats out with you in a pot so that it rattles when you shake it. (you may have to put a couple of small pebbles in for the noise), call and rattle, when he comes treat.  Make sure as you start this he has no distractions and is not too far from you.  Your garden is a good place to start.

Good Luck
Sandra

Hi,

I would invest in a long line (I use 40 foot ones) so that you can re-inforce the recall.  I don't mean yanking the dog about, but if you know that your dog is not going to run off, you tend to act more confidently and I find that this always helps.  When you recall your dog, pick up the long line (carefull not to get rope burn-ouch!!) and use it to 'reel' the dog in, with a big reward at the end. Using an exagerated action, such as throwing your arms open wide when you call him will help.
Have fun

Ali :)

Sandrah was right, I did not mean to imply the cause is hopeless only everything becomes more difficult when the hormones kick in; they cannot help themselves, they either want to pee up it, fight it or bonk it :D  Hence why I always say you must put a huge investment into dogs in the first 6 - 9 months and then not expect them to actually carry out calculus after that time cos their little brains cannot cope........ :D  They need to repeat, consolidate, Arithmetic :D

As you have  pointed out it does fall apart  during this period; if you can anticipate it and put in the training early you have a much better chance of minimising the effects............

thanks for your responses - that's reassuring. I do hope we can get it right. May I ask another question of you all? Sorry to bombard you. We just seem to be having a difficult time with Alfie at the moment and I'm not sure I'm responding in the right way.

We are also having problems with Alfie pulling on the lead. I've tried a lot to get him to walk to heel but he was pulling badly and yesterday in desperation I bought a halti. He was ok with it yesterday but today was really unhappy about it. I made him wear it and tried to ignore his protests but he's pawing at it madly and seemed quite miffed about it - he was jumping up at me when I took him home from his walk and he was quite naughty. Think he feels hard done by but I feel I need to persevere. Do you think he'll settle into it. I guess I'm scared of making him aggressive when at the moment he's really just overly playful and boistrous.

Also a major problem is letting him off the lead when other dogs are around because he barks at them if they won't play with him. He's a big dog and can be intimidating to smaller dogs or annoying to older dogs. I start a training course on Sunday which I'm hoping will help to settle him down. In the meantime I've decided not to let him off lead at all until he calms down. It means little or no play with other dogs but I don't feel I can trust him at the moment. Is this the right thing to do?
Obviously if the training helps and I can improve his recall then I'll feel more confident about letting him off for play. 

In the meantime I've decided not to let him off lead at all until he calms down. It means little or no play with other dogs but I don't feel I can trust him at the moment. Is this the right thing to do?

IMHO yes!

It is responsible.  Again, turn the tables, suppose you were walking along minding your own business and a dog rushed up to yours, how would you feel, especially if your dog was not particularly sociable, was old and feeble, recovering from an operation, or undergoing rehabilitiation?

I think the answers are generally within us all if we look at how would we feel if the boot was on the other foot.

Introduction to a headcollar really should take some time, not just be put on and used on the same day, it needs careful introduction along with some yummies so that he associates its presence with GOOD THINGS.

I don't think you have any reason to fear it will make him aggressive he is just showing you that he is not terribly happy with it.

Hopefully a good training class will help you with a recall and pulling on the lead.

I've never used a halti, but I am told that putting it on & getting the dog used to it at home before using it on walks helps, I'm sure someone who uses them will be able to help

Well done on starting your course on it you will hopefully be shown the techniques to get your dog to wlak nicely on the lead. I personally do all my training at home off lead including heelwork & although it is harder(as there is no complusion of the dog having to be with you as it is on lead) It does mean that when a lead is used the dog is already used to walking with you because it wants too

I wouldn't let your dog off lead away from home until he is used to being with other dogs(one of the pluses of dog club training is that the dogs get used to being with other dogs without wanting them to play)

He sounds like the typical 9 month old male puppy to me a bit boishy & hormones raging

thanks tohme - I am terribly conscious of Alfie causing problems with other dogs and you're right, I would hate it if a dog came and jumped on him...it's quite frightening when you don't know the dog and whether they are aggressive or just playful. I guess I'm just not always terribly confident I'm doing what's right for him because he's our first dog and it's all much more complicated than I thought it would be. I know it's partly due to his age/stage of development. I'm sure the training class will help us cope with it all a bit better. Do you recommend not using the halti for every walk at first?

When I introduced my old lab to wearing a Halti I only put it on her for meals and treats for the first couple of weeks, so that she associated it with good things.

Ooops!  I have just posted on another message, that I bought a halti yesterday in desperation and used it straight away, for a short walk round to the shop.  I gave him treats all the way round, and kept saying "good boy" etc. but have I gone too quick?  Should I have introduced it more slowly? I had to do something, as he's pulling me like mad, and the kids are getting left miles behind!  He didn't like the halti much at first, but he seems to be getting used to it really quickly, and for the first time in about 3 weeks, the lead was slack!

I said in my other posting that today I tricked him - I put the halti on but I attached his lead to his collar, and not the halti, and he walked to heel perfectly!  Was probably a flook though!

My boy is 4 months now, and a very healthy large black lab, so he is very strong.

Reagrds,

Julia

This may be dog specific but I find that dogs accept the Canny Collar better than the Halti or Gentle Leader.  It attaches behind the neck rather than under the chin and does make pulling less even with steam train pullers.

I would use a head collar for walks when I was not actively training 'Don't Pull' and an ordinary collar for training walks.  The training walks would lead no-where and I would stop or turn round every time the lead went tight.    After stopping or turning, when the lead goes loose I would click and treat [if clicker training] or just treat [if not clicker training].

The above will not work too well if the dog thinks he is going on an exciting walk; that is when the head collar comes into play.   Or, better still, take the dog in the car and then let him go run about.

Like any behaviour, the more it is practised the more entrenched it becomes in the brain.   This is true both of wanted behaviours and unwanted behaviours.   For this reason, training etc should be based on success which means manipulating the environment so that unnaceptable behaviours are not practised and acceptable ones are.

Wendy