Hi folks
need a bit of advice, took lucy for a scan on friday day 36, the vet scanned her for no more than 10 seconds which i was very angry at, anyway he said there was nothing there and that was that even although i did explain she is putting in weight , pink teets, all the usaual signs of pregnancy very affectionate which is not like her, lack of interest in food, she had 3 very good matings with my own stud dog which is proven, i have had a feel of her tummy myself which i can fell 3 small bumps if you know what i mean knowing that one of them is the bladder, i had started increasing her food slightly, but now i am not sure whether to continue with this or just leave her hoping she will start eating on her own again. has anyone had this before with any of there girls being told there was nothing there and went on to have a litter. i am dissapointed but on the other hand pleased that my girl is fine that is the most important thing,

any advice would be appreciated

violet-anne

Normally at 36 days you should be able to see something on the scan, even if it was just the black blobs (like pockets of fluid)  all you can do is take her back again say in 7 days and ask for another scan, could she be having a phantom? if YOU think she is pregnant, then continue to treat her as pregnant until the next scan confirms either way.

It is possible for the vet to have missed it, especially if he was in a hurry (sounds like he was)

Good luck

I would hope that if the vet only scanned her for 10 seconds & he/she was confident enough to say there were no pups, that there are no pups.
If the vet is experienced with ultrasound, I'd be happy with their word, however 10 seconds is pretty quick!
Also at 36 days, the pups would be obvious.
Some vets will offer a free second scan if no pups are seen.
I always rescan a negative ~ a week later, just to be sure.
The other signs / symptoms she is showing are typical of a bitch post mating as most bitches will have a phantom of some degree. :)

The reliability of a scan depends a lot on the exprience of the Vet.  I rearely get them done now, because of the ups and downs with the results.  A friend of mine had 2 bitches scanned (a couple of weeks apart)  1st scanned for 3 pups, 2nd scanned and prounounced no pups at all.  The first bitch wehlped 7, the 2nd bitch was owned by a firend of hers, and she got a panic stricken phone call from them about 2 week ago to say they though the bitch had a mammary tumour - brought her round to see friend, who took her straight to Vet, who confimrd her thought, imminent arrival of litter - she whelped 3 by C section 2 days later!

So, yes, you should still be aware that she may well be in whelp.

bye
Gwen

thanks for the replies, i am still hoping but it maybe there is only one and i know they are harder to detect, i think i will still treat her as pregnant with care hopefully trying to avoid a phantom , but will soon find out in a few weeks if the vet was wrong, and if there is nothing there i will try her again in her next season, but the main thing she is ok in herself.

thanks again
violet-anne

Hi,
Personally I wouldn't bother getting a scan done, so much depends on the operator, but I have used a stethoscope, both to confirm pregnancy and to estimate the number of pups/kittens.

There is good information on this site on using a stethoscope although I have heard heartbeats earlier than suggested on the site.  The good thing with a stethoscope is that hearing hearbeats is a good sign that the pups are alive :) and if you have it handy you can use it anytime ;) (within reason of course, the temptation is to sit listening all the time :D )

http://www.debbiejensen.com/signs_of_pregnant.html

Hope this helps

May I say that I'm not criticising any one individual here but merely making an observation.

There seems to me, to be an obsession nowadays with confirming a bitchs pregnancy. Whatever happened to patience, and wait and see. Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly no expert, I've only ever bred one litter, but I've been around the dog game for thirty years. It never once occurred to me to have my bitch scanned when I was waiting for her litter. I really don't think it serves any useful purpose. It only serves to satisfy human curiosity, do we need to line the pockets of our vets any further than we already do, they get it wrong.....all the time. If she's in whelp, she's in whelp, if she's not she's not. Scans will not put pups there if they're not

Violet Anne, I do hope your bitch is indeed pregnant, and it very much sounds as if she is, but just be patient. These things are worth the wait.

Dawn R.

I think scanning is very important........my girls litter died at 5 weeks pregnant, we didn't know until 7 weeks - we were told at a routine 7 week scan, if we would have left her until 9 weeks, things could have been a lot worse and we could have lost our girl too!  Infection had just started at 7 weeks with no outward signs, if we didn't get the dead pups expelled and my bitch put on anti-biotics we would have ended up with a dead mum and litter.

It's also important to know if there is a singleton pup..........you may not notice if your bitch was carrying one pup and again, complications could set in if labour isn't triggered due to the one pup.

So personally I think scanning is important.........it's not for puppy count, just to confirm all is well and that the bitch is actually pregnant.

Hi Sharon, yes of couse in your case the scan did serve a useful purpose, and I accept that. I remember very well your trauma from reading the other board, I hope your recent attempt goes to plan this time. However I'm speaking generally, in that knowing if a bitch is pregnant, and if so, with how many puppies, is for most people a matter of curiosity only.

Dawn R.

Probably.......lol.  it is exciting and those first 4-5 weeks seem to take forever...........is she isn't she, all the time......:-)

IF scans were unimformly reliable both on numbers and to actually 100% confimr preganacy, then I woudl say they are vital.  However, in the current state of things, I dont find them helpful at all.  Tohave someone completely write off the idea the bitch is pregnant on the word or a negative scan, and then to have under 48 hours to prepare for the whelping is a recipe for disaster (as happened in myh post above)  And then the numbers thing - it worries me that inexperienced owners will put too much reliance on how many the vet has reported saying, and either panic when too few arrive (as happened to another friend of mine, who rushd the just delivered bitch to the vets to find out what had ahppened to the rest of the litter - no more pups) or be happy to let a bitch settle, thinking they have finished becasue of scan numbers, when actually inertia has set in!

I do see that in Shaons case it was useful, but I dont have enough confidence in them, in thier current state.

bye
Gwen

HI Dawn R.
Thanks for the reply lucy was only scanned as she is a small bitch weighing 7 pounds, i was told to have her scanned just to make sure there were not to many for her to carry as this might have caused problems later on in pregnanacy, but i will be prepared if she does have any even one or none at all,time will tell in a few weeks but i will just have to be patient, as you said vets are not always right.

violet-anne

Dill,
I am interested that you use a stethescope. At what stage do you think you can hear heart beats and how can you estimate number of pups as how can you know if you are hearing the same heat beat but in different areas especially if the pups are moving about. Have you ever used a sonic aid?
Amos

Amos,
Heartbeats can be heard at different stages, it depends on the size and weight of the bitch and the size of the pups - each pregnancy is individual, but certainly I would expect to hear any heartbeats by 8 weeks and often as early as 5/6 weeks.  Counting the number of pups is fairly accurate with a stethoscope, the heartbeats are spaced out and can only be heard when you have the scope positioned correctly, if the pup moves then so does the heartbeat :)  Interestingly each pup has a different sounding heartbeat too (louder/quieter/faster/slower/rhythm etc.)   The heartbeats also sound different to the bitches heartbeat and her femoral pulse.

I wouldn't use a sonic aid for the reasons stated above, they have their uses but I wouldn't use one routinely, I would prefer to save the money for any emergency.  The main reason for using the stethoscope is to identify possible problems eg. only one heartbeat (singleton pup)/ disappearing heartbeats/ sudden loss of heartbeats which can then be accurately reported to the vet immediately.

In my opinion breeders were much more confident of their ability to diagnose pregnancy and know when the bitch needed help before the advent of the scan.  Often the vet will pronounce all is ok when the breeder knows there is a serious problem, but nothing is done because the scan is seen as proof.  My brother almost lost his bitch because of this, if the vet had listened to him both pup and bitch would have been saved.

Dill,
Thanks for your reply
When I say 'sonic aid' I dont mean a scan I mean a heart beat detector just like an electronic  stethescope like the midwives use when out on the community.
I will certainly have a go with both.
Amos

Amos ~ Just realised who you are.

Hello. :)

I knew you were Amos somewhere else, but hadn't twigged this was you.

I haven't forgot about getting that press article to you. It's coming....... (one day)

Let me know if you have any joy with the stethoscope & or S/A. Must admit I can't see it working myself (not that I don't believe it, just need to see it myself to believe it :)) - just like I still fail to understand / believe how people can "feel" a bitch is in whelp - I know some people are convinced their vets can & that's great, but I've never seen it done. I need to see it done to convince myself ;)

Hi Smudgly,
Yes its me! I did ring the Warwickshire life and they were also going to forward me a copy but that was ages ago I think they must have forgotten me now. Hope Karley is well, Jim sends his love!!
Lisa is coming out to see my lot on Wednesday.
Amos

I can feel the little fetuses at 3 weeks, so don't need to scan.  People using my stud dogs often come back at about that time for confirmation of pregnancy.  When the bitch is lying relaxed on her side (this can take some time to achieve!!), it is very easy to gently feel them.  However, after I have confirmed pregnancy, I leave well alone and don't prod them around any more.  I don't try and work out how many puppies either, I just try to confirm there is more than one.

But after your terrible experience, Sharon, I don't know what anyone can really do to prevent this happening unless the bitch is scanned on about a weekly basis.  Although you were sensible and constantly checked because of the warning signs that something was amiss.

I also think getting a bitch scanned just to know the number of pups is a waste of time.  Unless there is a possibility of the bitch just having a singleton then she is having to submit to the stress of visiting a vet's surgery and being  scanned just to satisfy an owner's curiosity.

hi guys
just a quick note to let you know that lucy is not pregnant, dissapointed but altleast she is ok, noticed today that she has a small amount of milk and also noticed she was wet around the back end with a little discharge so i presum she is having a phantom. am i right??

violet-anne

By my reckoning your bitch should have about a week to go.

If she is wet around the back end and discharging either she is in whelp and starting early or she has an infection of some sort.

They do not get discharge or wetness with a phantom pregnancy!!!!

lady dazzle
yeah you are right she would have had a week to go if she was pregnant, but she was rescanned and nothing there, so while she was there urine was tested and there was no infection, but was told it was a phantom by the vet and he has had bitches with this before, so know for sure there is no infection, thought i would post as it was an acctive topic when i first posted to let people know how she was getting on as some thought there might be a chance she was still pregnant!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm sorry but still would be very disturbed by the fact that she has a wet back end and discharge that is not normal in a phantom!!!!!!

It all depends on when your vet last looked at her a womb infection can start up in a matter of days and you did ask if this was usual I have answered your question by saying no it isn't.

But of course its your bitch and your choice.

she was tested for an infection yesterday when we noticed the back end but it was only a small amount of discharge, ie. mucas, and yes you did answere my question , i am very confident and so was the vet that there was no infection , but as you put it she is my bitch and it is my choice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sometimes the symptoms show before the infection rears it's head, when my girls litter died back in the summer, she was panting although she didn't have a temperature and there was no raise in her white cell blood count, but I knew the way she was acting wasn't normal.  It took 2 weeks before infection showed in a blood test

If she is wet, then it has to be coming from somewhere and I think I would be worried if it were one of my girls.

Just keep a very close eye on her, I hope she's ok.

she is fine sharon the vet has reassured me of that he is told me i am being over protective with her which any owner would be, she had a blood test taken a few weeks ago aswell as this one and it showed eveything was clear, she is not panting , infact all the swelling of the tummy has all now gone , as i said it was a small amount and there has been nothing since just milk in her teats, i am the type of person who does not hesitate to take the dog to the vet if i think there is something wrong but she is ok in herself and that is the main thing

You asked a question without giving the full facts that you had seen a vet yesterday, I answered it.  I was trying to help, having a lot of experience in breeding bitch's.

But there you go, think I might keep my knowledge to myself from now on. I certainly won't be answering anymore questions from you.

Hope your bitch is Ok.

i am sorry you are upset but i was not being agressive , did not think i was coming across like that

violet-anne, it's very difficult to know exactly what is meant on a forum, so when you say she had a wet back end, it could mean lots of fluid / discharge or a tiny amount of mucus. People would interperet it differently as they can not see the dog, I don't think anyone was suggesting your vet was incompetent, but I think you were being offered advice.

Even if your bitch had a urine sample tested & a vaginal swab, this would not rule out a womb infection such as pyometra - which is a potentially fatal condition. I think the other posters were just pointing out the importance of being aware of the condition & the signs & symptoms of it.

My advice would be, if she had a discharge of any sort I would have my concerns & would monitor closely.
However sounds like your vet is monitoring her condition.

** Just to add, my dog nearly died when she had pyo that went undiagnosed, even though I told the vet I was convinced that's what the problem was on the day she took ill -- the vet finally admitted they were wrong & I was right --5 DAYS AFTER SHE TOOK ILL**

Not suggesting your dog has got pyo, just telling you what happened to me.  :)