Hi, I am trying to find out some information about costs I am entitled to after studding my shih tzu (Bailey). He went to stud with a bitch who gave birth to a litter of six about 6 weeks ago. We arranged that I would be paid £50 for studding Bailey, and that if the bitch didnt catch, they would get him again free of charge. The first time they didn't tie, so it was arranged that when she came into season again Bailey would go there again. The problem is that when they sent for Bailey the 2nd time he went with a different bitch! In effect, they let their friend have their 'freebie' with Bailey instead of the first bitch! Its a bit complicated, but now the 2nd bitch's owners want bailey's papers so they can register the puppies.
I have never studded Bailey before, and I am unsure as to what the 'norm' is as far as what i am entitled to. Should I have been given a choice of either one of the litter or money? And was it ok that they took Bailey to someone else when the arrangement was with thier bitch?
I would be grateful for any advice
Thanks,
Deniece

I wouldn't be too impressed if I were you, your agreement was with the first bitch owner. I thought that bitches travelled to dogs, that the stud fee was paid up front with a free remate if no pups. The way I see it you have two choices - you either ask for the stud fee now or you refuse to do any paperwork. As the stud dog owner the terms and conditions of the mating are up to you, you could be as cheeky as they have been and ask for a pup in lieu of fee! I don't know what the going rate for your breed is but assuming they're KC reg and health tested I'd have thought more than £50!

As the owner of the stud dog, you should have asked to see the dog that he would mate with - and to see her papers, to ensure that all necessary health checks had been done and were in place!

You've obviously been unaware of this, but even so, as the owner of the stud dog, you would be liable along with the owner of the bitch for any health problems that this mating may produce in puppies.

Were I in the same position as you, I think I would refuse to sign the stud declaration - after all, it's not the bitch you thought it would be - you were paid the stud fee by the owner of one bitch, your contract was with that person - not the owner of the pregnant bitch.

Margot

As far as I understand is that if your bitch doesnt catch with the mating, then the SAME bitch gets a free go next time, but this is purely up to the stud dog owner.

It was a bit silly letting them use your dog for stud, before looking at the bitches papers, was the bitch health checked etc?   any problems with the pups in the future is a comeback to both your dog and the bitch.

Fees/pick of litter should have been sorted out BEFORE the mating took place...............if the terms were if the bitch didn't catch then SHE gets a free go, then officially the 2nd owner now owes you stud fees, unless of course you agreed to letting her have the free go.  Did the first owner pay you for the services??

Don't want to sound harsh, but were you not with the dog when he was being mated? Did you not realise at the time that it was a different bitch?

There is no right & wrong for who pays what & what happens if the bitch misses, the only sure thing is that an agreement should always be made in writing which is acceptable to all parties & signed by all parties prior to any mating taking place.

How do you know this bitch was compatable with your stud?

Thanks for your info. I've got a good idea of what usually happens now with studding arrangements!
It does probably sound naive to let my dog stud without having come to some sort of a contract prior to it. The person who we made the arrangements with is a good friend of my mothers and it was quite informal. She has bred her bitch quite a few times and as far as we are told the bitch is perfectly healthy and doesn't suffer from any inherant diseases.
When bailey was requested the 2nd time, they came to pick him up, we weren't told that it was for another bitch! So no, I wasn't present when they mated.
The problem I have is that since the woman is a friend of the family it is akward to be forward in this, even though I think I will probably refuse them bailey's papers.
I know now in future to arrange everything in detail before studding Bailey.

Just to clarify, the first owner paid me £50 for me letting Bailey out for the first time, and I did not know that he did in fact studding a different dog the second time, (that owner being a friend of the first owner)!!

You don't even know if the puppies are your dogs if you did not see the mating. It could be just a way of getting papers for a litter from another dog or worse X breeds

Both dog & bitch should have current eye certs & you should never let a bitches ownner take your dog away for a mating. They might have mated him to one or more bitches

I personally would refuse to sign anything without positive DNA tests

Well 'Good Friend' or not they didn't mind taking advantage of you and your dog without your knowledge (different bitch, different owner) :( sounds to me as if they were counting on you being 'nice' about it all :rolleyes:  The fee was paid by the first owner and all agreements were with the first owner, the second owner has no contract with you and was not entitled to use your dog.  You are not obliged to sign any stud declaration, the obligations would appear to be theirs, to you ;)    Would you even have been informed about this if there had been no pups?  How can you be sure this is the only litter that resulted from your unknowing 'loan' of the dog?

Sorry, don't wish to stir the waters but hate to see people taken advantage of.  Hope you get this sorted to your satisfaction soon.
Regards
Dill

How can you possibly sign the Kennel Club declaration when you didn't see the mating?  You don't know if your dog was used on which bitch!

Confirmation of mating to be signed by the owner of sire.  I hereby certify that the Dam named as identified to me was mated to the Sire on the date indicated and that the Sire was recorded as owned by me.

Thanks for your concerns. Just in case anyone was interested, everything seems to have been sorted out, but not with some major dissapointment. The 'friend' (J) that was supposed to use Bailey has been constantly lying to both myself and the 3rd owner. It turns out that the people who actually used Bailey gave the woman £50 to give to us for using Bailey (what the original agreement had said), but J kept the money!! Also, to stop them finding out, when they asked for our contact details to check bailey's papers and go about things propoerly, she told them we were on holidays. Finally, the last thing that we were lied to about was the fact that the bitch bailey was supposed to stud in the beginning, belonging to J, is actually cross bred!! All these things were found out when we finally got hold of the people, who are actually very nice and professional. They want to pay me another £50 (not forgetting they already paid J) and are going to get together with us to talk about using Bailey in the future because the pups are gorgeous. So, it's turned out for the best but not without some lessons being learned along the way about not being able to trust the people you think you know!!
Thanks everyone for your information.

what a mess!!! i take it Js no longer a friend!!! are you sure her bitch never had puppies?????

Feel sorry for the dog! Didn't know if he was coming or going (no pun intended) and personally I would never hand my dog over to ANYONE except my other half  to use on another bitch as in the time he is away from me he could be put to a cross or another breed altogether. Did we clarify where Bailey ended up going nad what he was mated too as the last message from the originator said they were lovely puppies but I lost the plot of where he ended up!!!!!!!

I'm sorry but you still cannot sign the Kennel Club form because you didn't see the bitch mated!!  When you sign the declaration it has to be based on fact, not on what someone (who you didn't know) has told you.  If you do sign the form, then it makes a mockery out of the litter.

As you don't know this other lady, I would be very wary too about signing the papers.  You didn't see the mating take place and for all you know she could have been mated by an unregistered dog.  By you signing the papers, you are declaring that your dog is definitely the father..........so any problems which may crop up with these pups later, the blame will come back to you and your dog.

The only way you could honestly sign the form is to have all the puppies, bitch & dog DNA tested if the tests show that the puppies are by your dog you could then sign the form

If the second mating was actually to a crossbred dog -  who are you signing kc papers for then?

So when the first bitch was mated, stud fee paid etc. did you give her signed papers??  not much point really as they can't be KC registered if the bitch is cross bred, I would insist on those papers back.........as she's not been truthful she could easily sale those papers on.........then you could be in bigger trouble

I feel like I should be writing a PhD on this because it requires a lot of figuring out! I'm not going to explain it all again, just to say that indeed, i am going to be wary, but this business does require some amount of trust when the bitch doesn't belong to someone you don't know as a friend. The next time they mate, it will be at my house just to make sure the right dog goes with the right bitch!! Also, I think someone was confused - the puppies weren't a result of a mate between my dog and a cross bred. The bitch is a pure bred kc reg shih tzu.

Was it the first bitch he mated that didn't become pregnant that was a cross breed?