Hi Jackedarby
Unfortunately many many people are 'conned' by the idea that the dog lovers registration is legit. I could send a list of dog names and register my elkhounds as great danes....and they would get back 'papers' saying they are great danes!...enough said.
As a potential breeder you should not be striving to produce 'pet' puppies....but the best you can.All people who care about their chosen breed do serious research about their dogs pedigrees and the health of not only their own dogs but also their dogs ancestors.Only then and usually with the guidance of a mentor who is 'well up 'on the breed do they attempt to breed. To breed to produce pet puppies is doing your breed no favours...how many 'pedigrees' have you seen that barely resemble the breed they are supposed to be...all produced by 'joe bloggs' who got his pet bitch and decided either it wouldn't be fair if she didn't have a litter,that  he wanted to make some money or that they would just like to try breeding because she is such a sweet dog. They then find the nearest male of the same breed and produce puppies with no thought of the future.
Nothing anyone can say is going to  make you not breed if you really want to but if you wanted to do things right you would learn by your mistakes and start again...keeping your present dogs as pets or maybe researching a suitable registered stud for your bitch and not using your male if she is of good enough speciman of the breed.Its not about using the nearest or most convenient male....and many if not most reputable breeders don't own or use their own studs
Archer

Very well said Archer..i think you have explained that very well.......i know everything(with many many months of mind boggling reasearch) about by dogs ancestors right back to the late 60's!

firstly, I have no intention of breeding cavaliers as a career like you think I do because quite frankly I haven't got that much time on my hands and can I ask when you do breed your dogs, which by the sound of it is not very often, what do you do with the other puppies. I know you will keep the best one or maybe two for yourself to breed from later but somehow I can't see you having hundreds of dogs running round. So perhaps you sell them. Probably at extortionate prices because they have come from a bloodline of show winners with no health problems (yet). Which is why you have a problem with me. I will be selling my puppies as 'pets' and as cavalier king charles because that is what they are whether they have papers or not. A pedigree in my eyes is the result of two dogs of the same breed getting together whether they've got a register of their bloodline or not.

Does  the fact that your not going to breed as a 'career' make it right...NO! I do not breed because I prefer to leave it to the people who have the expert knowledge  and time to do so. I'm glad you have an occupation that allows you to take at least 2 weeks off when your pups are born to be with them ...I don't.I have 3 elkhounds who are all well bred and from good healthy(tested lines).My oldest has his stud book number and 2 RCC one of which was won a crufts this year...will I use him at stud? No because his welfare and the welfare of the breed is foremost in my heart...not like you.
I think its very sad that people like you turn out substandard puppies with no registration and charge good money when people can go to a decent breeder and pay the SAME money for a good speciman from healthy stock.
My initial post was polite and well meaning...shame the same courtesey wasn't applied to your post.
Will not waste my time on you any more...people on here know me well enough that I don't need to justify myself to you.
Archer
  

I'm sure, jackedarby, you don't want to be like the puppy farmers who don't care about the quality or health of the puppies they sell, do you? I hope it will be important to you that 'your' puppies (and you will always be responsible for them, whether or not they belong to you) are healthy and provide their new owners with many years of pleasure, and not a few short years of vet's bills and heartache? Because that's what happens when people don't take care in matching pedigrees when they breed dogs. I would hope you want to produce the strongest, healthiest specimens you can, which the new owners can look upon with pride, regardless of whether or not they are shown. But I would also hope that you would be aiming to produce puppies who, if the new owners were to show them, would closely resemble their breed standard.

I've come late to this topic so can I just ask exactly why you want to breed? CKCS are hardly an endangered breed and there seem to be more than enough well bred puppies around (not to mention the very poorly bred ones who cause so much heartbreak to their unsuspecting owners).

I will say it again. The puppies that my cared for and loved dogs will produce will be sold as pets and nothing else. What is it with you people. You have an obsession on showing dogs and getting the perfect specimen. Its like being back at school. My dog is better than your dog etc etc. My bitch has come from a healthy blood line they are both pedigree dogs and so will produce pedigree puppies. I unlike the breeder of my dog, am a very truthful person and will tell any potential purchaser the truth about his registration. I will not sell them as kc registered. I will not let them go to just anyone in fact I might not let them go at all. Nobody can see into the future. Nobody can say if a dog is going to have health problems or not. NOTHING CAN BE KEPT PURE.

>getting the perfect specimen.

Yes, that is the dream of all reputable breeders. It will never happen, because we are dealing with nature, but that is the aim, what people strive for, what the people who founded the breeds strove for. They must be spinning in their graves as they watch their cherished breeds being undervalued.

My bitch has come from a healthy blood line

????????? Totally free from SM carriers are they ? How come you & your bitch's breeder know this when NO other Cavalier breeder in the world can state this ?

The researchers have emphasised that ALL cavaliers carry at least ONE line to an SM carrier/sufferer. Your bitch must be unique if she does not have the possibility of producing an SM carrier/sufferer

You have not answered my questions about SM so I take it you know nothing about SM & you cannot guarantee that none of your puppies will have or carry SM when selling them. In this age of litigation you are very very brave to assume things about your bitch that you know nothing about

reputable breeders will therefore be the downfall of the breed.

look at persian cats. REPUTABLE BREEDERS are striving to get the perfect cat with the perfect flatest face. All they are achieving is breathing problems. It is reputable breeders who are the problem.

the perfect breed of the cavalier were the ones right at the very beginning before humans decided to start 'messing' with nature. Look at the pictures back then compared to now.

'The beginning'? When do you mean? The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel breed was developed by those naughty humans in the late 1920s.

No breed is 'natural'. They are all, every single one of them, man-made.

toy spaniels of the type now known as cavalier king charles can be found in as early as the 16th and 17th century. Excuse my quoting from a book! These were cavaliers back then. They just weren't known as that until Charles II was introduced to them and was so taken by them that they took his name. Then when William and Mary were the monachy short-faced breeds like the pug became popular and it became FASHIONABLE for toy spaniels to be bred with shorter noses to look like pekingese. These dogs were known as king charles spaniels.  Then in 1924 a Mrs Pitt embarked on bringing back the original breed of the cavalier king charles spaniel which is what we have today.

>Then in 1924 a Mrs Pitt embarked on bringing back the original breed of the cavalier king charles spaniel which is what we have today.

Really? That's interesting. My books it say it was American, Mr Roswell Eldridge, who was responsible for introducing the prize for 'old type Blenheim spaniels' which resulted in the development of the breed we see today.

yes indeed. But it was Mrs Pitt who entered her bitch into Mr Roswell Eldridge's class and it was she who embarked on a project to bring the original type of longer-nosed spaniel back. Maybe not in 1924 but around 1926. There's no need to split hairs. Anyway you are missing the point I am trying to make.

I think we all are ...

in 1928 the breed standard was taken from the pictures of earlier toy spaniels.

I think you may find that it was ''Annes son and his 5 dogs that formed the foundation of the cavalier king charles spaniel we know today....the kennel club granted the breed seperate clasification in 1945,,,,, sadly Mr Eldridge passed away long before this in 1928
by 1964 the cavalier had reached the kennel clubs top 20 breed......

based on the toy spaniels of yesteryear

' the success of the breed owes much to the dedication of those determined to re-establish the longer-nosed spaniel'.

What do you know about the history of Cavalier King Charles Spaniels ? Precious little from your postings. why qon't you answer my questions about Syringomyelia

I'll ask you again how do you & your bitchs breeder know she is not an SM carrier & how do you know your dog isn'y a carrier, I'm sure the Cavalier Club would be over the moon as your information could stop the spread of this recessive gene disorder. It would save them a lot of heartache & worry

So please tell me how do you know that your bitch is NOT an SM carrier & then I apply this knowledge to one of my dogs & see if he is a carrier or not then I can let him be used at stud without having to worry about the puppies developing SM or passing it on

Syringomyelia

I agree with you that people who don't do all they can to avoid health problems in their chosen breed are doing the wrong thing.

Which is why everyone is recommending that you don't breed from your dog and bitch if they haven't had all the breed-relevant health checks (some of which are only available to KC registered dogs), and that you know that mixing their genes (which involves researching their genetic background) won't bring to the surface hidden problems. I can't see what you find so wrong about being advised to breed healthy animals.

So you are basically saying that I would be an irresponsible, unfeeling person who couldn't care less about my dogs or any subsequent puppies if I were to breed 2 insured, microchipped and well looked after dogs just because one of them is not kc registered and could possibly have health problems.

Well maybe not unfeeling but definately irresponsible!

You want to build up a good reputation im sure....not with un reg pups you wont , because you wont have people who are ''experienced' on the breed buying one from you,,,because they know their stuff & what to ask for and look out for  but owners new to the breed will soon be on your back with concern once they have your pup and  done research becuse beleive me they do........thats why you posted in the first place, because you have a un - reg boy and you are unhappy with his breeder !!!!

i feel as tho i can not say anymore on the matter....maybe in time you will understand where we are coming from.....no one is saying you are a cruel uncaring person..just trying to steer you in the right path!!

<<no one is saying you are a cruel uncaring person..just trying to steer you in the right path!!>>
Oooh Sorry  think that was me, I did come over a bit harsh and I apologise. We quiet ones are always the worst. Just enjoy your pups.
Kay

How can striving for perfection be worse than deciding to churn out dross?

how do you know for sure that it will be dross (whatever that is)?

To give you an idea of what we mean, so that you realise we aren't the only people to want to best for all breeds, have a look at this site especially under 'Health issues'.

Also see here.

I have been following this thread and from what you have been saying, it looks as if you are just using your poor bitch for financial gain. Why?. You say you would like a pup, then why not go to a reputable breeder for one. It will certainly cost you a lot less than breeding, but there again maybe not as you do not seem to comprehend the necessity of health checks. Why would you want to put your bitch through this. You have obviously not taken her health into consideration whatsoever, that is not the action of a caring owner.

It is quite sad when someone comes into the forum asking for advice and then quite happily rejects all offers of advice and help. You will do what you want anyway.

Have you considered that you could pay around £600 for a good kc reg puppy from health checked parents. As opposed to paying around £2500.00 for a "pet" with possible health problems and long term vets fees.  If your bitch needs a C-section and has a singleton this is the initial cost you could be looking at.

I have a beautiful bitch, kc reg from excellent show stock, I know she would produce excellent pups if the right stud were found for her, but she has HD so I will never have a litter from her, as much as I would like to. She is a wonderful pet, but that is exactly what she is, a pet, not a breeding machine. Why add to the many problems we already have.  The aim of good breeders is to try as much as we can to erradicate these problems. Please see sense and do the right thing, if not for yourself, please think of you bitch.
Kay

o.k There will be no breeding in this household. I don't think I could but her through it anyway. Oh by the way Molly is 5 months and Kenco is only 12 weeks, so I wouldn't have done it for atleast another year anyway. Looks like they are in for the chop then doesn't it.

No they cant,,,but they can do their very best to help prevent it...will you have your bitch health screened then and find a compatable stud....ie..thats another thing to check are their pedigrees compatable, not to close ect...thats where ''knowing'' your lines come into it.......because i take it your boy isn't proven either ??? sorry forgot how old he was....
even your vet will advise you not to mate two ''Madiens'' !!!!!

I dont show(because its too much time consuming and traveling) but i would love to be able to have show potentiol puppies and see my line doing well in the ring if that was what the owner wanted i would be very proud.......i would turn myself inside out for the breed i love them with a passion and i dont work only because i have my dogs to care for....my husband keeps us all going...lol

If that is aimed at me I only have DOGS & do not breed puppies

When I did breed puppies(not Cavaliers)the parents had all the relevant tests done & even though the parents had been placed/won at shows the puppies(apart from the ones I kept) were all sold at the same price I never sold a puppy at a show price & another at a "pet"price> Iactually paid more for one of BCs than I charged for my Beardies

The reason why pedigrees are important in cavaliers is to ensure you do NOT line breed on both sides of the pedigree to try to limit the spread of Syringomyelia. This crippling & distressing & painful condition can lead to an early death or a life of acute pain. have you ever heard of Syringomyelia ? If you haven't you should not be even considreing breeding Cavaliers. No cavalier whether it be pet non pedigree or champion show dog should be bred from under 2 1/2 years of age because SM can manifest it's self at any age, but usually before the age of 2 1/2

If you ignore all the veterinary advice & breed your dogs before this age if one of your puppies develops SM you would be liable on the grounds of negilegnce.

There is no test for carriers or sufferers of SM if there are no clinical signs. The marker gene will be found & I personally will not be buying another Cavalier until the marker gene is found

If you have no real documents for your dog you could be breeding fron a carrier to another carrier & be responsible for producing dogs that have a very painful condition & possible early death.SM is not colour linked. it is found in parti coloured & solids. My youngest dog father was PTS before he was 3 years old & was in considerable pain which was the reason he was PTS

However they are your dogs & if you so wish you will breed them together & of course if they are not show dogs & not KC pedigree puppies you will not be charging anywhere near the huge prices breeder charge for puppies that ae from known lines & will advise all the buyers of all the possible conditions the puppies may develop & provide free insurance for them for the 1st 6 weeks after you sell them

Jackedarby, I wonder if you've been following this thread? I imagine so, because it concerns Cavaliers. This is the sort of problem that can arise if not enough care goes into the breeding of dogs.

not even remotely the same situation. I get the message then. No kc registration means no health checks,no history and a poor example of a pedigree dog. o.k

Got it!!

don't make me laugh!!!!!!!

Seems your the only one laughing...

Having read but not joined in the above, and appreciating that you now say you are not intending to breed, just want ot point out that in your earlier posts you mentioned that you would be breeding pedigree cavaliers - in fact, you have no way of knowing this!  You already know that your dogs pedigree is not true, you actually have no way of knowing if he is actually a Cavalier at all - he could quite well be a first generation cross who has thrown towards the Cavalier heritage in him!  In fact, you would not even be able to give pedigrees with any pups produced by him, as you dont know his pedigree!  So leaving aside the excellent health reasons you have been given for not using dogs from unkown health heritage, you have a very practical reason- you would have been trying ot sell un-registered, without pedigrees, possibly may be cavalier pups!
bye
Gwen

sorry, didn't quite get the last bit. As I said before, my boy looks more like a cavalier than my bitch and she IS kc registered. And I am going to quote from my trusty book again. "Over the years, breeders used the long-nosed throw-outs form the Charlie breeders to try and establish the correct type of head with the soft, melting expression so desired in the Cavalier. Experiments were tried crossing Cavaliers with Papillons to get the longer nose required, and it is known that some of today's dogs can trace their pedigrees back to crosses with Cocker Spaniels". What's a pedigree again????

A pedigree is a list of known ancestors and outcross to another breed can form part of a pedigree, registering a predigree with an establishment like the KC can give this credence as it will at least have to tie in with the records already held there something the Dogs Lovers(sic) mob would not be able to do.

As Isabel says, a pedigree is a list of known ancsetors. You now know that your boy's 'pedigree' is false, so you can't puppies sired by him as pedigrees, because you don't know his ancestry.

Absolutely right! :)

Thats the whole idea of re- searching the breed......you find out how old their ancestors were when they passed on, also what health problems did occur if any and which is the most domernering colour out the two!!,, NOT all cavaliers end up with a heart murmur,,,all reputable breeders want to do is ensure that they have done their very best for each pup you have decided letting your bitch bring into the world and to ensure that new owners have a strong healthy pup that will have a good life span..........because one of the last thing you want is new owners knocking on your door with one problem or another isn't it....

Of course cavaliers are only wanted as pets with alot of people and not just for showing or breeding...but bad breeding doesnt have to come into it.....alot of breeders are now putting endorsements on their pups when registerd with the kennel club to help prevent any puppy farming and in the future if that owner wishes to breed and the breeder thinks she is a good type of the breed example then the endorsement would be lifted....

Breeding is also a expensive especialy preparing for your 1st litter - from having your bitch heart and eye screened...sissors to cut cords - bottles just incase pups cant feed as well as welping equipment !!! also stud fees you are looking at least £1000 or more thats not including keeping money aside just incase your bitch needs a c - section,,not forgetting the registration of each pup once born,,so if your bitch only has 1,2 or 3 pups you have no return on the funds you have put in..........

homes that pups do go to would be vetted BIG time by reputable breeders or to people they know some new owners may feel INVADED....i have seen cavs from showlines advertised for £600 - £750 which is way to much i think...average cav puppy cost is £400 - £550 no matter what lines they are from.....un -reg pups usally £300 - £400...but why do breeders not register their pups??? because they can only register 4 litters per year with the kennel club, so any un reg pups is a good sign of ''dodgey ness'' not in all cases but in a lot...so research on the breeder is a must too...ask around..you would be surprised how many people know each other through word of mouth!!!

Best of luck in what ever you decide.

Well jakedarby---despite having gone the right way about buying your first puppy---you  sure went about it the wrong way the second time, you now know your papers are worthless and your dog could infact be any mix,--  so you decided to breed  non kc registered ones  !!!!!!    You go for it, start at the bottom, that way theres no place left to fall,  :(      while those  that have put the time in and researched our breeds  will be aiming for as high as we can make it----a much harder challenge-----but far more rewarding,

You say:
"I will be selling my puppies as 'pets' and as cavalier king charles because that is what they are whether they have papers or not."

If your puppies have no papers you're not selling Cavalier King Charles spaniels but mongrels!

Is it so hard to understand that only KC registration is "a proof" of ancestry?