3 months ago I bought a cavalier bitch who was kc registered. A month ago I bought a cavalier dog with the intention of breeding them. I was told that the dog was registered with the dog lovers association which is the same sort of organisation as the kennel club and more and more people are using them to register their dogs as it is cheaper to do so. when I bought the dog off the breeder I explained to her that I was going to breed him and would I be able to register the pups with the kennel club. She told me I would have to register them with the dog lovers association. I have since been in this forum and have found out that the dog lovers association is not a reputable organisation and the black and tan cavalier with no white on (it is rare to find a black and tan cavalier with no white) might not be a pedigree after all. Is this true even though I have got 3 generation papers.

I'm afraid dogs lovers association isn't worth the paper it's written on :-(  if your dogs parent's aren't kc registered then neither can your boy or any off spring :-(  The pedigree may be true, but you have no way of finding out if none of the ancestors are kc registered.

And even more importantly, you have no way of finding out if any of the ancestors were health checked!! Cavalier breeders are working very hard to improve the health of their beloved breed.  It would be irresponsible to consider breeding from dogs who's ancestors haven't been health checked because they often have more relevance to the puppies than the sire and dam.
Knowledgable and experienced dog breeders wouldn't consider using DLRC.  People who produce puppies to sell do!!

Hi Jackie

no its not 'rare' to find a cavalier with OUT any white on - this is classed as ''mismarks'' the wholecolurs should have no white on at all. a black and tan cavalier with a white mark is produced by a whole colour to a parti colour mating...if you are planning on breeding then you should already be aware of all this colour genetics!!!!

This woman has told you aload of rubbish register with 'Dog lovers'' cant say i have heard that one before..lol

if your boys parents are not registerd then you boy wont be either and only the breeder is able to register this boy, also ity can not be stressed enough.....cavaliers which are used to be bred from MUST have all clear heart and eye certificates more and more new owners are looking for this even more now...there is too much bad breeding going on and people seeing £££££ signs rather than the health of their dog!!

I have just contacted the breeder and she has told me that his parents are kc registered but she registered the pups with the dog lovers club because it was cheaper to do so. She said to have him kc registered would have cost me another £100 ontop of the £450 I had to pay for the dog. Does it really cost this much?

You've paid £450 for an unregistered puppy??  Sorry but you've been had!!

No, it doesn't cost anything like that much to KC register a pup! How old is he? To register a litter costs £12 per puppy. If another puppy is being added to an already registered litter, or late registration (dog over 12 months of age) costs £60. 

She may not have KC registered him because the bitch was too old/ too young/ had too many litters ...

Jackie..i have been trying to track you down...this woman is out of order..she is filling you in with rubbish !!!!!!

do you have a email i cant contact you on privatly??

Jackie at the time of registration with the kennel club it is £10 to reg a pup not £100
best wishes!!

I've just spoke with the kennel club and gave them the names of his parents and grandparents.  They told me that his dad is kc registered and his mom's name is registered but under a different name and colour of dog. I saw his mom when I bought him but his dad had been put out to stud. His mom is a beautiful ruby. When it comes to his grandparents, the grand dam is registered but she would be 18 years old now and would be to old to have any offspring of his moms age and they have no record of the grand sire. So basically there is no way that his mom could be kc registered.

Oh dear. :( As there's no way his mum is KC registered, then he can't be either. The breeder is telling you lies when she says it will cost another £100. It can't be done at all, and she's trying to put you off realising that she's taken advantage of you, I'm afraid.

If his grand dam is 18 years old I would be highly suspicious....a dog should not be bred from after the age of 7...hence if the  grand dam  was 7 when she gave birth and then your dogs dam was 7 that would still only make your pups grand dam 14 !!
Archer

It is hard to give honest advice sometimes without personal feeling behind it and not to detract from the question asked when posts are so obviously demonstrating decisions made by the poster without any regard for the breed in question..

Your post suggests that not only did you buy two dogs for breeding without any reseaching or understanding about the breed , health issues etc BUT you also did it without any research on the whole Registration of dogs.

I just cannot understand why people charge on and do these things. Why??

Does this cut out on costs on studs and selecting the best suitable dog for the bitch and that is supposing the bitch is actually healthy enough never mind good enough to breed from.

Jackie you have been done sadly but it begs the question, Will it teach you a lesson about buying without proper research..??

I know it sounds awful but people that do as you have done just make space for another poorly bred puppy. :-((

good luck

the bitch is kc registered and health checked and she is a beautiful yet leggy tricolour. As for the dog, I was looking for a black and tan and I have read that black and tans are very difficult to get hold of so was very pleased when I found him. The breeder who I got him off has been breeding dogs for years and so I believed everything she said. She assured me that the dog lovers club was legit and was just a rival organisation as the kennel club was becoming a rip-off. I can honestly say that the dog looks more like a Cavalier than the bitch as he is chunkier. When I got the papers back for the bitch who is Kc registered, I found out that her parents are actually half brother and sister so howcome the kennel club registers inbred dogs?

1.  It's your bitch's parents and grandparents etc as well as her who need to be health checked before breeding.  Many problems miss a generation (ir two or three!) and reappear again.  That's more that a quick once over by your Vet.  They need to be checked by Opthalmologists, Cardiologists etc.
2.  If you were thinking of mating a solid boy with a parti girl, then you are just going to produce mis-marks!  Lots of genetic learning to be done.
3.  Just because people have beed producing dogs for years doesn't make them "good breeders"!  Were you recommended to go to that breeder by one of the Cavalier Breed Clubs?
4.  There is nothing wrong with a half brother/sister mating if you "know" the virtues and faults of all the dogs in the pedigree.  It's a mating done by experienced breeders with great benefit.  It's also done by the ignorant to produce disasters!

I'm off for a lie down in a darkened room folks! :D

"I'm off for a lie down in a darkened room folks! :-D"

LOL Is there space for me ?

val

yep you said it! "many problems miss a generation so problems will occur down the line." Doesn't that happen with inbreeding. If it happens with fish it will certainly happen with dogs. Genetic mutation and all that malarky

Genetic mutation is random, and has nothing to do with inbreeding. Inbreeding cannot create new genes - it can only 'fix' what is already there. If the genes are good, then it is an excellent thing to do. If they're bad, then it's a wrong thing to do. This is where rsearch into the individual animals named in a pedigree is vital before breeding is contemplated.

jeangenie, does this apply to humans and any other animal aswell?

Let me put it this way. Zoologists have discovered that cheetahs are extremely inbred. So much so that they liken it to a mother and her three cubs emerging from a cave after the last |ice Age and perpetuating the species. All cheetahs, wild or in zoos, are in effect descended from 4 related individuals. Which is why cheetahs all look so alike - their genes are virtually identical. Where is all the mutation and genetic disaster?

cheetahs are wild animals so inbreeding is natures way. Domestic dog inbreeding is human intervention and where there is human intervention there are always problems.

Inbreeding is inbreeding whether it is determined by nature or human intervention. The genes can't tell the difference!
:)

Ah, but the least healthy die in nature, rather than being cossetted through by breeders, and then bred from later ;)

M.

Which is, of corse, what happened when the breeds started out. Those that didn't come up to scratch were culled.

Absolutely!

M.

It's when poor-quality animals reproduce that problems multiply. Inferior genes will never produce quality, but that gets forgotten somewhere along the line.

"those that didn't come up to scratch were culled"

and of course that has been scrupulously adhered to throughout the years (?)

In many ways it would be good for the canine world as a whole if it had been, to try to ensure that hereditary diseases were eradicated, and all puppies born were strong and healthy. But nowadays we are all (including myself) too soft-hearted to do this, and dogs are suffering because of it. Quality of life is of paramount importance.

Effectively, the endorsements available to the breeder on registration of the pup allows some modicum of 'culling'. Whilst sub-standard stock is not actually killed, it IS removed from the gene-pool of the breed (or at least those that are registered).

Personally I wouldn't rear any pup that was physically defective or needed 'assistance'. I've done it in the past succesfully, but still wouldnt do it again.

val, check out the in-breeding section on the cavalier.co.uk

Val, who have you gone to lie down with your dad,brother or your son because as far as your concerned inbreeding is OK.You lot are so struck on getting the perfect dog yet inbreeding will cause problems down the line. I think you need to read up on genetics!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Blue and JG - A bit off the point - but where do you find the information on dogs in a pedigree? I'm researching my girls at the minute and although I've found pics and brief details on some of them (quite a few actually) how do you find out about any problems they had, any problems their offspring had, how long they lived etc. I read everything I can get my hands on and talk to folk at shows etc what else can I do? How do you decide which bitch is good enough to breed from?

I found the best thing to do was talk to long-standing breed club members, who remember the dogs. The more people you talk to, the less biased the information, because of course you have to allow for personal rivalries etc - not all people are honest and open-minded!
:)

Thats what I thought - no-one is going to tell me about problems with their dogs! Still I'll keep chatting to the folk I meet - they mostly seem happy to chat away, I even sat with the referree for the whole afternoon at a recent breed club show and he was telling me the good points and bad points of the dogs we were watching and loads about handling, I was riveted! He told me loads of stuff about the old days as well which was really interesting. Hope he didn't find me too much of a bore!

Hi poppynurse.  As JG has said, all this information in accumulated over a period of time, sometimes many years.  That is why it is so often recommended to have a mentor in your chosen breed, so that they can educate and guide a newcomer to make wise choices concerning whether their bitch is good enough to breed from and choosing an appropriate stud dog.  One of the ways of gauging a bitch's quality is to enter her in a few shows.  They are also brilliant 'learning' grounds, because at the big Champ Shows, you will come across many oldies with yearsworth of knowledge, who could well have known the dogs on your bitch's pedigree.
We all have to learn somewhere (as it often quoted on this board!) and who better than from others who have had the guardianship of our chosen breeds before us.

Just read your post above - there are some who are only to happy to own up to problems in their line.  They are the folk with the best interest of the breed at heart.  And of course, you are right, some aren't THAT honest and open, but if you are keen to learn and listen to what is said, every breed has folk who will help a newcomer.  They are only too glad to find people who they can trust their passion with!!

I can't pluck up the courage to enter! I just keep going along and thinking one day I will! Maybe someone will adopt me if I keep going :)

As in all groups, the more people who recognise you, the more people will be happy to chat to you. When people sense that you are genuinely serious about learning (joining a breed club and going to meetings is good for this) the more time they'll be happy to share with you.
:)

I contacted the KC and asked for a full copy of all cockers affected with PRA, (the one's that are registered) they sent me a floppy disc with hundreds of names on.

Give them a ring, they may have the same for your breed.

Poppynurse.

You maybe should start this as a post incase it is too much off topic.. not sure though. :-)  There are a lot of really knowledgable people on here  that may give you advice.:-))  Some with 10s of years of owning their breed.  Some have been great with me and not in my breed at all BUT the knowledge and understanding is there.

I think everyone has different methods of finding out information and also different ideas about what should be bred from. This could be depending on how long or successful a kennel and line you have. Some newer breeders may accept some things in their bitch that a top winning kennel would not accept in the breeding program.( not major bad things though that are outwith the breed standard and never health issues). The whole idea and best never forgotten  is to improve your line everytime. If you are not then something is wrong.  

Some of the breed databases are good I use one a lot, you can go back and find litter mates and see what has happend to them with regards showing, their off spring etc.

Some breed internet groups are excellent for finding out information as there is a common interest there.  You can ask if anyone knows the dogs or lines etc.

The way most people I suspect decide if a dog is good enough to be bred from is by showing the dog and also getting very experienced people to give an opinion by going over the dog.  The breeder may be happy to go over a dog when it is older and has matured.

I think one of the best ways to learn is to sit at the ring side at champshows.  Not 1 or 2 but 10-20 :-)  watch the judges going over the dog and you ca paint a picture of what they are looking for. 

You can take part in breed seminars and then when you get more experinced do the judging seminars.( not for the judging but for the experience)  All priceless efforts.  Get involved with the breed club. 

One thing I think people have to remember is if you ask for an honest opinion from a experienced person don't be upset if you get one you didn't expect.  Don't put a dog on the table ( so to speak) and say "isn't she beautiful" LOL because the person you ask may not be as honest to avoid offending you. :-))
You want honest opinions based on the fact you intend to be serious about your breed and that you are looking for your foundation bitch and if need be you would iliminate this one if not good enough from your plan.

Health problems can be a tricky one to find out about I guess but you can research on the affix of the dogs in question.

You could find out how long do the affixes go back, is it possible to speak to the dogs owners/breeders and tell them you are researching your dogs pedigree. Most successful breeders are happy to do this and are proud of their off spring.

My honest opinion is if you start with a breeder who has many years experience and they are happy to let you have one of their dogs then that is the best place to start.  A life long mentor.

I think that is one of the great things about dogs you can learn so much and still keep learning and the best plus point is they are great companions.  Most good breeders I would imagine go to their bed at night knowing they are doing all they can for their breed.

Sorry it was long. :-)

Blue, JG and Val, thanks so much for the info, it sounds like I'm doing the right things I just need to keep at it. I've just had a long chat with a local ringcraft organiser and he's persuaded me to enter the local CS show and recommended someone locally who knows my breed well and will go over my dogs for me, so I'm going to give it a go - as he said the worst that can happen is that I'll fall over - but that will break the ice at least! Thanks again :)

Good for you! Everyone's terrified of making an ass of themselves, but most people can remember what it's like when you start showing, and are happy welcome you and help you learn the ropes. Good luck - and remember, you've got the best dog to take home!
:)

That's brilliant Poppynurse!!  I do know how you feel.  My daughter showed our dogs for 14 years and then when she went to college, they either weren't going to be shown or I had to do it myself!!  I was worried about falling too, not being used to running.  I just giggled my way through it.  The way I'm built, if I did fall, then I wouldn't bump my nose!!

Ooh Val - that made me laugh!!!!! I'm a bit of a weeble myself!

There's nothing wrong with inbreeding if both parents are exceptionally good. It cannot create problems which aren't there already. That said, the breeder needs to be very knowledgeable about understanding the fine detail of all the dogs in the pedigree.

Dog Lovers was set up by a pet-shop owner to make the non-KC farmed puppies sold from there more appealing to the public. The registration is no more legit than one you or I set up on our own.

jeangenie, you are basically saying that pedigree dogs are GM PRODUCTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So you are messing with nature for your selfish benefit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Livestock isn't GM in that tomato genes have been added to improved colouring (!) but other than that yes, all pedigree animals (dogs, cats, cows, fish etc) are GM. They have been designed, over sometimes hundreds of years, to fulfil a purpose for Man, whether it's for herding, hunting, guarding or companionship. If that's not what is required, then go to a rescue centre and get a mongrel. It has as much chance of inherited problems as an irresponsibly bred pedigree though.
:)

Jackie,

The point you miss is you are now doing all the research but it is sadly too late.  :-((

Dog breeding, genetics , health issues etc are all complicated so you need advice , it has to be BEFORE you buy.  With little or no knowledge about the breed the fact that one or both of the dogs look nice in your eyes means nothing really as to how good a specimen they actually are.

Good Knowledgeable dog owners and breeders are always happy to point people in the right direction without a doubt but generally before people charge off and buy the puppies.   Nobody here can do anything to help you honestly. You have been done. unless you persue the breeder you are stuck with expensive dogs.

I would have been 100% lost without the help and support I have had myself over the last few years for experienced dog owners and breeders in my breed and also in other breeds.

To be honest you will probably find that most breed enthusiast will have bought their first dog in their choosen breed and had it not been good enough they would not have bred from it at all. They would have learned about the breed and then bought a better bred one for their second dog or as the foundation of their line.   Most breeders don't ever keep stud dogs, they select the best stud dog suitable to their bitch in the country and pay the stud fee. A small investment for another improvement in their line.

Does that make sense? :-)

blue

can I just ask why it is you breed dogs. My dogs were bought to be pets but I have decided that I might try my hand in breeding them so other people can enjoy this breed. You have basically called me stupid in your post. I am far from stupid and HAVE researched the breed but all this registering crap is very confusing when the breeder is supposed to be reputable and then comes out with a load of nonsence. Inbreeding is frowned upon yet the kennel club register inbred dogs! So what does registration matter anyway.

Inbreeding is not frowned upon, Jacky. Is it a useful tool in all livestock breeding, as it frequently has more consistent results and fewer problems than outcrossing. But it has to be done carefully, and only with good, health-checked examples of the breeds.

As for the point of KC registration - the Kennel Club run schemes to try to ensure that only healthy animals are bred from, and reputable breeders ensure all their stock are checked. Unregistered dogs cannot participate in these schemes, and so their hereditary status is unknown.

As I'm sure you know, Cavaliers have a bad reputation for heart problems and subsequently often have tragically short lives. good breeders are trying hard to breed out this problem.

Jackie, :-)

Not sure where in my post I said you are stupid.  :-) I am trying to tell you that our advice is too late.
I can see that even after good advice from various people  you are questioning the advice. :-(

  My main interest in dogs is showing and supporting my chosen breed not breeding. Breeding a litter is something I only do and will only ever do if I feel I HAVE to. The thread however is not about me and my reasons.

What I will say is that my first 2 dogs of my breed than I bought were not good enough examples of the breed to be bred from and they were not bred from.  They did come from good lines both in conformation and health but like all things in life that is not enough. What appears good as a puppy doesn't always turn out as good as you would have hoped.  That is with a lot of research and advice.

Your first post say,

"A month ago I bought a cavalier dog with the intention of breeding them". That to me suggest the new dog was not bought as a pet.

This is not a slagging match but almost a " Sigh"  because people often come and ask these same questions when it is too late , if you had came on the board and asked for advice before buying the dog you would have been welcomed and given good  advice , honestly. :-)

Jackie you have a tri bitch & you bought a Black & Tan to breed from her ? If I understand you correctly. You may get whole colours you may get blenheims you may get tri colours & you may get a litter of mismarks.

Line breeding is actually frowned on by responsible cavalier breeders due to the fact tha.t this increases the incidence of syringomyelia. ALL living Cavaliers are believed to carry at least one line to a known Syringimyelia carrier &/or a carrier, the official veterinary advise from the researchers is NOT to in breed at all if possible & were that is not possible only have then inbreeding on only one side of the pedigree. When the marker gene for SM is found a blood test before breeding will be required for all cavaliers to ensure at the most only one parent is a character

If you intend to breed Cavaliers seriously what you should have done is firstly research the various bloodlines for heart & type of course what I consider to be a typical Cavalier may or may not be the same as yours, Then when you have decided which lines & type you like, then find the best bitch you can & from her as your foundation build your breeding program. if you like the solids then buy the best ruby/black & tan you can & use the dog best suited to her lines & strengths & weaknesses, To start by buying a dog & bitch(one from decidely iffy background) is irresponsible to say the least

One of my dogs sisters has had two litters one all blenheims(to a blenheim dog) & the other solids(to a solid dog)The owner of the bitch is very knowledgeable about pedigrees & the puppies were exactly what she expected, so inter colour breedings are not a total no no but need to bedone with an indepth knowledge of the breed

You are I hope going to wait to breed your bitch until she is at least 2 1/2 & breed to a dog whose pedigree looks complement her & of course is over 2 1/2 & they will have both got current eye & heart certificates

I am very passionate about all my favourite breeds & especially the Cavalier, sadly most pet cavaliers are bred for money because there is always a demand from the public for this most delightful of breeds

I am starting now to look for my next cavalier for about two years time, because from experience that will be the amount of time it will take me to find the right one for me & who knows they may have found the marker gene for SM by then, so I will not have to worry that my prcious dog develops this crippling illness